Top WHA players?

[Dennis Bonvie]

I don’t think so. The NHL wasn’t all that big a deal; beyond a few top teams their teams were mostly no different than average WHA teams. Players in an exhibition game would have included many on both sides that had played in both leagues ... the WHA guys weren’t a separate group of players harbouring a long-time grudge or inferiority complex, or anything like that.

Where did you get this info from?

The NHL wasn't a big deal, compared to what?

There were not many NHL players that had played in the WHA. Hardly any, actually.

The league, the teams and the players most certainly had an inferiority complex. Every game against the NHL was played with something to prove.

Just wondering, were you around to see WHA games at all?

 

[crobro]

Mark Howe

 

[TheEye]

There were not many NHL players that had played in the WHA. Hardly any, actually.

Effectively, I guess that depends on one's own interpretation of "hardly any." As an example, of the 11 NHL teams competing in 1978 interleague play with the WHA, I believe there were at least 28 players (minimum 10 NHL games played that season) who were formerly on WHA rosters. Including the remaining six 1978 NHL teams who did not participate in interleague play, that number rises to approximately 43, while still considering the aforementioned qualifier.

Let's also not forget that 67 NHL players defected to the WHA upon inception. That's roughly equivalent to 150 NHL players leaving the league in 2019. That undoubtedly created depth issues for NHL rosters during the 1970s.

The league, the teams and the players most certainly had an inferiority complex. Every game against the NHL was played with something to prove.

No competitive team disregards losing to a perceived inferior competitor. And most certainly not when the inferior team feels they'll gain something significant by beating you. This definitely does not occur in professional sports.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Effectively, I guess that depends on one's own interpretation of "hardly any." As an example, of the 11 NHL teams competing in 1978 interleague play with the WHA, I believe there were at least 28 players (minimum 10 NHL games played that season) who were formerly on WHA rosters. Including the remaining six 1978 NHL teams who did not participate in interleague play, that number rises to approximately 43, while still considering the aforementioned qualifier.

Let's also not forget that 67 NHL players defected to the WHA upon inception. That's roughly equivalent to 150 NHL players leaving the league in 2019. That undoubtedly created depth issues for NHL rosters during the 1970s.



No competitive team disregards losing to a perceived inferior competitor. And most certainly not when the inferior team feels they'll gain something significant by beating you. This definitely does not occur in professional sports.

Overlooking that the 1972, 38 players and 1974, 48 players, NHL expansion drafts took 86 depth players.

O6 era, NHL teams lost exhibition pre or in season games to AHL, WHL, minor pro and junior teams that have been long forgotten - usually within minutes after the final siren.

 

[VanIslander]

The NHL wasn't a big deal, compared to what?

There were not many NHL players that had played in the WHA. Hardly any, actually.

There were not many NHL players on several NHL teams!!!

I remember watching my favorite player Ken Dryden take on the Soviets. I was in B.C. but no one i knew went to Canucks games because several of the expansion teams SUCKED (Vancouver and Colorado especially). When the NHL doubled from 6 to 12, there was a demand for more players, so a lot of guys who had no business playing in a top league, many of them bad skaters, took jobs. Heck, my Canucks had to pay a WHA player a top NHL salary to come to Vancouver, and that Mike Walton became the Canucks top scoring star. He overtook Rick Blight, who had led the expansion NHL team in scoring for three years. Blight would go to another NHL team and last two games before rightfully being sent to the minors to play the rest of his pro career.

 

[The Panther]

There were not many NHL players that had played in the WHA. Hardly any, actually.

Yeah... not so much.

Birmingham Bulls 1978-79
Coach: John Brophy (future Maple Leafs' coach)
*Rick Vaive
*Michel Goulet
Paul Henderson
*Rob Ramage
Gaston Gingras
Pat Riggin
Keith Crowder
Louis Sleigher
Wayne Dillon
(several more players besides these had very short NHL careers)

Cincinnati Stingers 1978-79
Coach: Floyd Smith (former Buffalo Sabres, future Maple Leafs' coach)
*Mark Messier
*Mike Gartner
*Mike Liut
Gerry Meehan
Robbie Ftorek (NHL player and head coach)
Michel Dion
Barry Melrose (NHL player and head coach)
Dave Forbes
Jamie Hislop
Bryan Watson
Rick Dudley (NHL player and head coach)
Peter Marsh
(a few more players besides these had very short NHL careers)

New England Whalers 1978-79
*Gordie Howe
*Mark Howe
*Dave Keon
*John McKenzie
*Blaine Stoughton
Gordie Roberts
Andre Lacroix
Warren Miller
Mike Rogers
Rick Ley
Al Smith
John Garrett
(a few more players besides these had very short NHL careers)


The * indicates the player did one of more of the following: Played in the NHL All-Star Game, made the Hall of Fame, scored 100+ points in the NHL.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Yeah... not so much.

Birmingham Bulls 1978-79
Coach: John Brophy (future Maple Leafs' coach)
*Rick Vaive
*Michel Goulet
Paul Henderson
*Rob Ramage
Gaston Gingras
Pat Riggin
Keith Crowder
Louis Sleigher
Wayne Dillon
(several more players besides these had very short NHL careers)

Cincinnati Stingers 1978-79
Coach: Floyd Smith (former Buffalo Sabres, future Maple Leafs' coach)
*Mark Messier
*Mike Gartner
*Mike Liut
Gerry Meehan
Robbie Ftorek (NHL player and head coach)
Michel Dion
Barry Melrose (NHL player and head coach)
Dave Forbes
Jamie Hislop
Bryan Watson
Rick Dudley (NHL player and head coach)
Peter Marsh
(a few more players besides these had very short NHL careers)

New England Whalers 1978-79
*Gordie Howe
*Mark Howe
*Dave Keon
*John McKenzie
*Blaine Stoughton
Gordie Roberts
Andre Lacroix
Warren Miller
Mike Rogers
Rick Ley
Al Smith
John Garrett
(a few more players besides these had very short NHL careers)


The * indicates the player did one of more of the following: Played in the NHL All-Star Game, made the Hall of Fame, scored 100+ points in the NHL.

Seems to be some miscommunication on my post. My apologies.

We were discussing exhibition games between teams in the WHA and the NHL. A poster stated that many players on both sides in those games had played in both the WHA & NHL. My point was that the NHL teams at that time did not have many players that had played in the WHA, hardly any.

So, what you would need to show is NHL rosters from 1978-79 with players that had played in the WHA.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Effectively, I guess that depends on one's own interpretation of "hardly any." As an example, of the 11 NHL teams competing in 1978 interleague play with the WHA, I believe there were at least 28 players (minimum 10 NHL games played that season) who were formerly on WHA rosters. Including the remaining six 1978 NHL teams who did not participate in interleague play, that number rises to approximately 43, while still considering the aforementioned qualifier.

Let's also not forget that 67 NHL players defected to the WHA upon inception. That's roughly equivalent to 150 NHL players leaving the league in 2019. That undoubtedly created depth issues for NHL rosters during the 1970s.



No competitive team disregards losing to a perceived inferior competitor. And most certainly not when the inferior team feels they'll gain something significant by beating you. This definitely does not occur in professional sports.

Compared to WHA players who played in the NHL previously, yes, I'd say that's hardly any. Less than 3 players per team with (at least) only 10 games played that season.

These were exhibition games. We all know what NHL pre-season games look like. Except it was not perceived that way on the WHA side. Because I actually saw all of Hartford's home games against NHL opponents and got to read the build up in the local papers (primarily the Hartford Courant, the oldest continuously published newspaper in the United States), I feel I have a good sense of what the dynamic was at that time.

 

[TheEye]

Overlooking that the 1972, 38 players and 1974, 48 players, NHL expansion drafts took 86 depth players.

You do recognize this further re-enforces my point about dilution, right? With the inception of the WHA, 67 players defected to the rival league. This meant the NHL had to immediately incorporate a substantial number of players who weren't previously considered NHL material.

Additionally, you note the NHL rapidly shifted 86 (actually 90) more players to new rosters through expansion. You do realize this again establishes an increased need for incorporating players who weren't previously capable enough to be on active NHL roster? And somehow you believe this highlights the notion of a deep or strengthening league? That's simply counterintuitive to all logic.

If anything is overlooked here, it appears to be on your behalf. And for the record, I believe the 1972 NHL expansion draft involved the selection of 42 players, not 38 as you've indicated.

 

[Canadiens1958]

You do recognize this further re-enforces my point about dilution, right? With the inception of the WHA, 67 players defected to the rival league. This meant the NHL had to immediately incorporate a substantial number of players who weren't previously considered NHL material.

Additionally, you note the NHL rapidly shifted 86 (actually 90) more players to new rosters through expansion. You do realize this again establishes an increased need for incorporating players who weren't previously capable enough to be on active NHL roster? And somehow you believe this highlights the notion of a deep or strengthening league? That's simply counterintuitive to all logic.

If anything is overlooked here, it appears to be on your behalf. And for the record, I believe the 1972 NHL expansion draft involved the selection of 42 players, not 38 as you've indicated.

1972-1974 how many NHL ready players graduated from the three Canadian Junior leagues and the NCAA that was still accepting post major junior Canadian grads besides Americans?

Seems like you overlooked a major NHL feeder stream.

Also, you neglect to look at the 1971 NHL attrition numbers, players who left the NHL, not appearing during the 1971-72 season. More or less than 67?

 

[TheEye]

Compared to WHA players who played in the NHL previously, yes, I'd say that's hardly any. Less than 3 players per team with (at least) only 10 games played that season.

Well, it was about 13% of the total NHL roster size at the time. To be fair to the poster Andy6, I think that qualifies as a little more than "hardly any." That's equivalent to 82 players suddenly incorporating from the KHL in 2019.

I feel I have a good sense of what the dynamic was at that time.

I'm unconvinced regarding that statement. The NHL and WHA expressed a very palpable distaste for one another during the 1970s. It in fact appears to be completely ignoring the dynamic at the time, believing the NHL didn't care about achieving victory in those games. The WHA was attempting a usurping of the NHL as the premier professional hockey league. That signified something for both parties when these games were played, pre-season or not.

 

[TheEye]

1972-1974 how many NHL ready players graduated from the three Canadian Junior leagues and the NCAA that was still accepting post major junior Canadian grads besides Americans?

Seems like you overlooked a major NHL feeder stream.

Also, you neglect to look at the 1971 NHL attrition numbers, players who left the NHL, not appearing during the 1971-72 season. More or less than 67?

I haven't neglected or overlooked anything. Notice that I suggested a "substantial number" and did not quantify it using the number 67. In regards to everything else, I absolutely don't possess the time to continually Gish Gallop with you. Sorry.

 

[Canadiens1958]

You do recognize this further re-enforces my point about dilution, right? With the inception of the WHA, 67 players defected to the rival league. This meant the NHL had to immediately incorporate a substantial number of players who weren't previously considered NHL material.

Additionally, you note the NHL rapidly shifted 86 (actually 90) more players to new rosters through expansion. You do realize this again establishes an increased need for incorporating players who weren't previously capable enough to be on active NHL roster? And somehow you believe this highlights the notion of a deep or strengthening league? That's simply counterintuitive to all logic.

If anything is overlooked here, it appears to be on your behalf. And for the record, I believe the 1972 NHL expansion draft involved the selection of 42 players, not 38 as you've indicated.

And for the record, not 47 as listed by hockeydb, a very reputable source.

1972 NHL Expansion Draft Picks at hockeydb.com

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Well, it was about 13% of the total NHL roster size at the time. To be fair to the poster Andy6, I think that qualifies as a little more than "hardly any." That's equivalent to 82 players suddenly incorporating from the KHL in 2019.



I'm unconvinced regarding that statement. The NHL and WHA expressed a very palpable distaste for one another during the 1970s. It in fact appears to be completely ignoring the dynamic at the time, believing the NHL didn't care about achieving victory in those games. The WHA was attempting a usurping of the NHL as the premier professional hockey league. That signified something for both parties when these games were played, pre-season or not.

Suit yourself.