Top defenceman of the last 20 years

[BenchBrawl]

Agreed.

Being a Bruins fan I love Chara, but Pronger was a better all around player.

Pronger was a better skater, better stickhandler and had a better first pass.He also had even more of an intimidating presence because he was unpredictably dirty.

No contest Pronger > Chara as a player.

In Chara's defense, he had more loyalty and managed to have a team build a champion around his identity, was most likely a better leader, and was a more feared fighter.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I hesitate to say it like this because I know it will read poorly relative to my intentions...but Chara wasn't that good...now, the italicized "that" is a matter of relativity both to the best all-time defensemen and to the league he was in...

What I mean is that he wasn't that talented from a technical perspective...not a great skater, not very good hands, not a noteworthy passer (again, relative to the greats), not a strong puck carrier unless he had a real head of steam going, and even then, he struggled to routinely make forecheckers miss...I mean, look at that top-60 list that was made a few years ago...does he have the worst puck skills on that list? Langway? Quackenbush?

Of course, Chara is terrific defensively...but he has a pretty unique set of limitations relative to the field and played in a pretty weak time for defensemen...it will be interesting to see how history remembers him...he's, what, a 6, 7, 8-time all-star or something right? That's a lotta dimp...no?

Where I do award major points is his ability to cross distinct eras...he was horrific early in his career, sure...but when he started coming on in Ottawa, he got some love, then the big sleep happened and the game changed and Chara came up on the other side absolute roses in a game that shouldn't have favored him...his PIMs went down on the other side of the lockout...that's very interesting to me.

 

[Goleafsgo95]

1. Lidstrom

2. Pronger

3. Chara
4. Karlsson
5. Doughty
6. Keith
7. Neidermayer

8. Blake
9. Weber
10. Hedman

 

[Dingo]

Lidstrom
Pronger
Karlsson
Chara
Niedermayer
Keith
Blake
Doughty
MacIniss
Bourque

 

[Dingo]

I hesitate to say it like this because I know it will read poorly relative to my intentions...but Chara wasn't that good...now, the italicized "that" is a matter of relativity both to the best all-time defensemen and to the league he was in...

What I mean is that he wasn't that talented from a technical perspective...not a great skater, not very good hands, not a noteworthy passer (again, relative to the greats), not a strong puck carrier unless he had a real head of steam going, and even then, he struggled to routinely make forecheckers miss...I mean, look at that top-60 list that was made a few years ago...does he have the worst puck skills on that list? Langway? Quackenbush?

Of course, Chara is terrific defensively...but he has a pretty unique set of limitations relative to the field and played in a pretty weak time for defensemen...it will be interesting to see how history remembers him...he's, what, a 6, 7, 8-time all-star or something right? That's a lotta dimp...no?

Where I do award major points is his ability to cross distinct eras...he was horrific early in his career, sure...but when he started coming on in Ottawa, he got some love, then the big sleep happened and the game changed and Chara came up on the other side absolute roses in a game that shouldn't have favored him...his PIMs went down on the other side of the lockout...that's very interesting to me.

I find many of the same faults in Pronger, if to a lesser degree. He became less effective with the rules changes in 2005, until playoffs when the rules kinda go back to 90s hockey. Chara is the same - looks bad and slow sometimes in the regular season. Playoff tyrant.

 

[Dingo]

Pronger was a better skater, better stickhandler and had a better first pass.He also had even more of an intimidating presence because he was unpredictably dirty.

No contest Pronger > Chara as a player.

In Chara's defense, he had more loyalty and managed to have a team build a champion around his identity, was most likely a better leader, and was a more feared fighter.

This is all true.
It sucks about the intimidation thing, and that it can be his way in hockey. Chara is a tougher, and actually more intimidating person than Pronger. But he played within the rules of the game more, which SHOULD be a further asset.... there’s hockey for ya.

I will say, though, that much of this is due to Pronger enjoying some of his prime before the lockout year and subsequent rules change. Had Chara had his prime between 97-04, I suspect he would be an urban legend. Derian Hatcher scratched out a bit of a legend there, and he couldn’t do a single thing as well as Chara, imo.

 

[VanIslander]

Nobody has spoken about Sergei Gonchar. He has scored 700+ points in the last 20 years. Has any defenseman scored more? The two-time 2nd team all-star ﹰStanley ﹰCup champion is consistently underrated.

I would include Gonchar on a list of greatests of the last 20 years along with a couple of guys whom some here herald and some pan: MacInnis and Weber.

Burns, Hedman and Subban are at the margin imo, clearly not necessary but arguable, certainly of the last half decade, though this is supposed to be of a much longer period of time.

 

[Sentinel]

Lidstrom
Pronger
Niedermayer
Keith
Doughty

Chara
Karlsson
Blake
MacInnis
Weber

 

[Tuna Tatarrrrrr]

Yeah considering Bourque was not in his prime anymore and nearly at the end of his career in 1998, it's probably Lidstrom.

 

[FerrisRox]

Yes Pronger had the huge year in 00, but he gets overrated from that and the 06 playoffs.

This made my jaw drop. Pronger gets overrated for the '06 playoffs?

I think that herculean effort is grossly underrated. That was one of the most dominant playoff performances I've ever seen from a defenseman and the only time I've seen a defenseman singlehandedly carry a over-matched team all the way to the Final and, were it not for an injury to their starting goaltender, very likely a championship.

 

[FerrisRox]

I dont like the Hart argument mostly because it tends to put too much value on 1 year outliers.

for example, in an all time list would you put Price over Lundqvist because of the Hart?

Yes.

 

[FerrisRox]

Lidstrom
Pronger
Niedermayer
Chara
Keith
Karlsson
Doughty
Weber
Subban
Blake

 

[Voight]

I dont like the Hart argument mostly because it tends to put too much value on 1 year outliers.

for example, in an all time list would you put Price over Lundqvist because of the Hart?

In Pronger vs Chara I look at it this way. Pronger had the better absolute peak, Chara had the better career. And Chara had more than just a cup of coffee as considered best defenseman in the world.

Norris voting:

Chara 1-2-2-3-3-3-4-5
Pronger: 1-3-3-3-4-5-5

AS voting:

Chara: 3x AS-1, 4x AS-2
Pronger: 1x AS-1, 2x AS-2

Pronger over Keith and Doughty? Sure, there's definitely an argument to be made there.

I'd be ok saying the top 4 is locked in with Lidstrom, Chara, Karlsson, Pronger

I'd put Keith or Doughty in the top 4 before Karlsson.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Posting this just for informational purposes (this isn't "my" list):

Most Norris trophy votes (adjusted), 1998-2018

Nicklas Lidstrom	8.75
Zdeno Chara	4.01
Chris Pronger	2.88
Drew Doughty	2.88
Erik Karlsson	2.85
Shea Weber	2.46
Scott Niedermayer	2.38
Duncan Keith	2.17
Rob Blake	2.11
Al MacInnis	1.93

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The biggest surprise was seeing MacInnis round out the top ten. That's because this time period captures 1999 (his only Norris) and 2003 (he was runner-up, but easily could have been a Hart trophy finalist). Still, with only 356 games played, and little playoff success, he obviously shouldn't make the list.

For combined seasons, from 1997-98 to 2001-02, in the playoffs, playing skater, sorted by descending Points.

Rk	Player	PTS ▼	Tm	GP
1	Peter Forsberg*	91	COL	73
2	Joe Sakic*	78	COL	84
3	Brett Hull*	70	TOT	88
4	Mike Modano*	67	DAL	72
5	Steve Yzerman*	64	DET	64
6	Sergei Fedorov*	63	DET	70
7	Nicklas Lidstrom*	60	DET	70
8	Patrik Elias	55	NJD	65
9	Milan Hejduk	50	COL	72
10	Chris Drury	50	COL	80
11	Jaromir Jagr	49	PIT	42
12	Brendan Shanahan*	47	DET	64
13	Petr Sykora	46	NJD	61
14	Tomas Holmstrom	45	DET	70
15	Mats Sundin*	44	TOR	48
16	Pierre Turgeon	43	STL	45
17	Martin Straka	42	PIT	48
18	Al MacInnis*	41	STL	53
19	Jason Arnott	41	NJD	58
20	Adam Deadmarsh	39	TOT	60

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

but who is below him is more surprising--

Rk	Player	PTS	Tm	GP
19	Al MacInnis*	41	STL	53
22	Chris Pronger*	38	STL	54
23	Joe Nieuwendyk*	37	TOT	59
25	Sergei Zubov	37	DAL	68
31	Ray Bourque*	34	TOT	52
34	Rob Blake*	33	TOT	51
42	Sandis Ozolinsh	31	TOT	49

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

not to say that the late 90s/early 2000s blues were some playoff juggernaut, of course. but old man macinnis fared pretty well in the postseason.

(also not to say that he belongs in the top 10 here)

 

[quoipourquoi]

not to say that the late 90s/early 2000s blues were some playoff juggernaut, of course. but old man macinnis fared pretty well in the postseason.

(also not to say that he belongs in the top 10 here)

One of the tables we lost in the move had the Western Conference playoff statistics for players against COL/DAL/DET - essentially showing how terrible that era was for recording numbers in the West. That MacInnis holds up in this light is pretty impressive.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

One of the tables we lost in the move had the Western Conference playoff statistics for players against COL/DAL/DET - essentially showing how terrible that era was for recording numbers in the West. That MacInnis holds up in this light is pretty impressive.

out of pure curiosity, i'm going to run the numbers--

1998: 4 points in 4 games vs LA (win), 4 points in 4 games vs DET (loss)
1999: 9 points in 7 games vs PHO (win), 3 points in 6 games vs DAL (loss)
2000: 4 points in 7 games vs SJ (loss)
2001: 3 points in 6 games vs SJ (win), 3 points in 4 games vs DAL (win), 4 points in 5 games vs COL (loss)
2002: 3 points in 5 games vs CHI (win), 4 points in 5 games vs DET (loss)

so vs everyone else, that's 23 points in 29 games
vs DET/DAL/COL, 18 points in 24 games

or another (but very similar) way of looking at it,

22 points in 26 games in series wins
19 points in 27 games in series losses

that's pretty good consistency across teams, actually.

 

[Air Budd Dwyer]

Nobody has spoken about Sergei Gonchar. He has scored 700+ points in the last 20 years. Has any defenseman scored more? The two-time 2nd team all-star ﹰStanley ﹰCup champion is consistently underrated.

I would include Gonchar on a list of greatests of the last 20 years along with a couple of guys whom some here herald and some pan: MacInnis and Weber.

Burns, Hedman and Subban are at the margin imo, clearly not necessary but arguable, certainly of the last half decade, though this is supposed to be of a much longer period of time.

Lidstrom scored 835 points from 97-98 until the end of his career.

 

[Ivan13]

I know I might be in a minority, but for the life of me, I don't understand how Scott Niedermayer can be rated above Duncan Keith?

 

[Blackhawk93]

I know I might be in a minority, but for the life of me, I don't understand how Scott Niedermayer can be rated above Duncan Keith?

A lot of that has to do with how offensively gifted Niedermayer was compared to Keith. Keith was never a great PPQB and really struggled with shooting the puck, so if someone values offense a lot, they’re going to take Nieds over Keith.

 

[authentic]

I dont like the Hart argument mostly because it tends to put too much value on 1 year outliers.

for example, in an all time list would you put Price over Lundqvist because of the Hart?

In Pronger vs Chara I look at it this way. Pronger had the better absolute peak, Chara had the better career. And Chara had more than just a cup of coffee as considered best defenseman in the world.

Norris voting:

Chara 1-2-2-3-3-3-4-5
Pronger: 1-3-3-3-4-5-5

AS voting:

Chara: 3x AS-1, 4x AS-2
Pronger: 1x AS-1, 2x AS-2

Pronger over Keith and Doughty? Sure, there's definitely an argument to be made there.

I'd be ok saying the top 4 is locked in with Lidstrom, Chara, Karlsson, Pronger

I don't think it's remotely controversial to state Pronger was better. Infact in their peaks/primes I don't think it was even that close, especially in the playoffs. The guy is the only defenseman who can lay serious claim to being better than Lidstrom at his peak in the past 20 years, maybe Karlsson too.

 

[authentic]

A lot of that has to do with how offensively gifted Niedermayer was compared to Keith. Keith was never a great PPQB and really struggled with shooting the puck, so if someone values offense a lot, they’re going to take Nieds over Keith.

Keith was better offensively at their peaks. Besides 2005-06 and 2006-07, the two seasons where scoring was much higher than any other in the past 20 years, Niedermayer never topped 59 points. Keith had 69 in 2009-10 and 61 in 2013-14. Even including those two seasons his two best are 69 and 63. They are pretty comparable players offensively.

 

[DannyGallivan]

*Cries that 20 years means 1998*

Lidstrom
Pronger
Niedermayer
Chara
Blake
Keith
Doughty
Karlsson
Weber
Gonchar?
Hatcher?
Zubov?
Stevens?
MacInnis?

I feel I'm missing someone (not Bourque)

What's Gonchar and Hatcher doing on this list?

 

[Big Phil]

Lidstrom
Pronger
Chara
Niedermayer
Weber
Keith
Karlsson
Gonchar
Blake
Doughty

Eventually there will be those that will pass the likes of Niedermayer all-time. I don't know how you can add Stevens, Hatcher or MacInnis. They played much less than anyone else in the last 20 years. Blake at least had his prime years then. Niedermayer too. I'm a big Keith and Weber guy though, even if Karlsson passes them eventually. They get a bad rap sometimes. Weber has one injury riddled season in 2018 and all of the sudden the guy is a write off? No, I think he still has some good hockey left in him.