Top 5 Personnel Things You Believe the Wings Must Do 14-15

[Unfriendly Ghost]

I think "a lot of us" is an overstatement. I feel like most of us recognize he has severe flaws in his game and that players like Ouellet, Marchenko, perhaps even Backman, are more polished and ready than Sproul. People are more excited about Sproul, sure, but I haven't seen anyone say they think he's more ready than the other kids.

I also don't think giving someone a few games up and sending him back down is a confidence killer if you do it right. Explain to them what the call up is. "We're bringing you up so you know where you are and what you need to work on." Isn't that the whole idea behind the "cup of coffee" call up? Give them a taste. Pay them some money. Let them see how far they've come and how much further they need to go.

I don't think callups are necessarily the problem. I think it's being "given" roster spots. They give you a spot, and then you struggle, and you wonder what's going on, and if you aren't as good as they think, etc. Of course, the Ken Holland strategy for this is pretty much to never actually give a kid a roster spot, which is too extreme a response. But the psychology seems to be that if you break into the lineup largely of your own accord, you know how you got there, and you're less likely to doubt yourself. That's probably what is going to happen to Mantha this year.

 

[Frk It]

Sproul needs work, but if you're going to play with one of these kids looking for one of them to be a potential game-breaker, that's your guy.

Ouellet or Marchenko could play right now and be solid, but I don't really see them being big impact guys right now. Could probably log minutes and you don't notice them making mistakes, but they're not going to make much of a difference offensively right now IMO.

Ryan Sproul could single handedly pump life into a very dull power play full of weak point shots. He's a big time risk-reward option, among the group of young defense prospects we have. I'm fine with him playing in the minors, but I can absolutely see the appeal and intrigue of playing Sproul. Very sheltered 3rd pair ES minutes and then 1st PP unit with Kronwall is pretty enticing to me personally.

I'm leaning towards Marchenko as the preferred kid but only if he gets PP time.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

1. Jurco needs to be on the team

2. Cleary, Quincey, Lashoff all need to be off the team. Kindl as a 7th D.

3. Marchenko or Ouelett need to be on the team.

4. Smith on the Powerplay.

5. Sheahan, Nyquist, Tatar, and Jurco never see a second on the 4th line over someone like Cleary, Glendening, Miller, or Abdelkader.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Why?

MOD... Would holland have brought back the guy with that stipulation if he didnt 100% want cleary on the team and to get his bonus money.

i dont want to get into this but if holland trully didnt want him around then he had his chance but he intentionally chose otherwise.

so give him his ten games and his bonus money and good riddance

 

[Frk It]

Would holland have brought back the guy with that stipulation if he didnt 100% want cleary on the team and to get his bonus money.

i dont want to get into this but if holland trully didnt want him around then he had his chance but he intentionally chose otherwise.

so give him his ten games and his bonus money and good riddance

It doesn't matter if they would do it or not. They won't do 90% of what people have posted so far in this thread.

The idea is what WE are making suggestions on what WE want to happen with the personnel.

 

[TatarTangle]

Actually, I've been thinking about that. The reaction seems to be: Babcock/Holland aren't using the best players, and that means they're crazy/illogical/just plain wrong.

I think what Holland means to do is develop his players mentally. So when he puts a lot of hurdles in the way of somebody like Nyquist or Jurco (and he really hasn't put many hurdles in the way of Jurco), people look at that and think that Holland actually believes that Nyquist isn't better than somebody else on the roster. But what he's really doing is trying to make it harder for those guys for development reasons.

If you read some of his interviews from this summer, it sounds like his primary worry with prospects is that they won't be mentally ready. He talks about kids who come up, look good for a few games, fizzle out, go back down to the AHL, and lose their confidence and really struggle. So if you view avoiding that situation as Holland's #1 goal, then I think his decisions make a little bit more sense—they're at least not as outrightly illogical as they might seem otherwise.

We say: Jurco is ready! and Holland says: yeah, but is Jurco ready forever? (I actually think he is, but it isn't a given!) and that's sort of a distinction we don't seem too worried about as fans. Hell, I mean, look at Ryan Sproul, who I think might be the poster boy for this. A lot of us want him up, but he is absolutely not ready in terms of his defensive game. So he could come up and score some goals, but look like **** defensively, and then he's going back down, and then he's losing confidence, and so on.

I'm not saying I agree with Holland's decisions very often, but it's kind of a ridiculous trope that he's being irrational about prospects. I'd actually say that he's being too rational for our taste. We want the exciting stuff now, and we're willing to take a risk. Holland wants to wait, minimize the risk, and have it later.

Well said. But I don't agree that their confidence would be shattered if they're called up for a couple games and then sent back down. And if it did happen they probably wouldn't last too long in the NHL anyways. I understand what your point is though.

They've definitely been illogical though. To add to this thread;

1a. Give Cleary five games and if he's as bad as he was last year then it's the press box for him. I don't expect this to happen. He'll end up playing 30-40 games. Fine. Whatever. I'm past the point of actually caring, really. Just don't play him when it comes to playoff time and don't resign him.

1b. Jurco needs to play in at least 30 games. I'm on the fence about this happening. If injuries are frequent again, he will. If they aren't he probably doesn't. He doesn't have Dan Cleary's heart and leadership and last I heard the Wings can't win much of anything without those two things. Being quick, physical on the forecheck and having the ability to make plays doesn't account for much of anything...I guess.

2. Give Smith PP time. I don't expext this to happen. Babcock gave Brunner all the chances in the world and was an utter disaster on the point for the PP but refuses to give Smith a chance. Doesn't make sense. And that's enough said about that. *edit* Yes, I know Brunner was a RH shot.

3. The bottom pairing for defense should be by committee - Kindl, Lashoff, Marchenko and Ouellet. I don't expect this to happen. I'd throw in Q because he can be that bad, but they didn't pay him that much [unjustified] $$$ to sit in the press box. The Kindl - Lashoff pairing was embarrassing to watch. Embarassing. Create an enviroment where those four can battle for spots and two will rise above the rest (which would be Marchenko and Ouellet).

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

It doesn't matter if they would do it or not. They won't do 90% of what people have posted so far in this thread.

The idea is what WE are making suggestions on what WE want to happen with the personnel.

I thought it was top 5 things you feel the wings must do, not 5 things I would do.

so I am thinking based on what the wings do, here are 5 things thay HAVE to do in order to be successful. The wings must not have cleary in and out of the lineup all season playing anything more then ten games. So give him his games and money right off the bat and send him packing however you have to do it. This is one of the 5 things the WINGS have to do in order to be successful.

 

[BinCookin]

3. The bottom pairing for defense should be by committee - Kindl, Lashoff, Marchenko and Ouellet. I don't expect this to happen. I'd throw in Q because he can be that bad, but they didn't pay him that much [unjustified] $$$ to sit in the press box. The Kindl - Lashoff pairing was embarrassing to watch. Embarassing. Create an enviroment where those four can battle for spots and two will rise above the rest (which would be Marchenko and Ouellet).

What if this best 2 of 4 thing really did happen. And Kindl and Lashoff really did beat Marchenko/O for the last 2 spots. Would we even believe it???

I'm being devil's advocate.. but how do we know that they earn their spots or do not? (favortism vs who earns it could be close right? - maybe we wouldnt know) Do we get to watch everything they see? Who is the best source of info on this? or is there one?

 

[TatarTangle]

What if this best 2 of 4 thing really did happen. And Kindl and Lashoff really did beat Marchenko/O for the last 2 spots. Would we even believe it???

I'm being devil's advocate.. but how do we know that they earn their spots or do not? (favortism vs who earns it could be close right? - maybe we wouldnt know) Do we get to watch everything they see? Who is the best source of info on this? or is there one?

It's not like Kindl and Lashoff don't have the talent, it's if they apply it. If they apply it and beat out Marchenko and/or Ouellet then so be it. But that being said, they have the knack of applying it but 25% of the time. I'll give Lashoff the benefit of the doubt and say 50%.

I would hope, considering this is the bottom pairing, that Babcock wouldn't show favortism. But even if Marchenko and Ouellet beat Kindl and Lashoff for the last two spots I'm guessing that would have to involve Holland waiving both Lashoff and Kindl. But I'm not sure. But if were the case there is 0% chance that it happens. Gotta stockpile mediocre talent so that the better players don't have a chance to rise through the ranks, yo.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

It's not like Kindl and Lashoff don't have the talent, it's if they apply it. If they apply it and beat out Marchenko and/or Ouellet then so be it. But that being said, they don't have the knack of applying it but 25% of the time. I'll give Lashoff the benefit of the doubt and say 50%.

I would hope, considering this is the bottom pairing, that Babcock wouldn't show favortism. But even if Marchenko and Ouellet beat Kindl and Lashoff for the last two spots I'm guessing that would have to involve Holland waiving both Lashoff and Kindl. But I'm not sure. But if were the case there is 0% chance that it happens. Gotta stockpile mediocre talent so that the better players don't have a chance to rise through the ranks, yo.

I seriously question if Lashoff has the talent. I am never really upset with his effort, I just think he is a bad NHL player. He is young maybe he can carve something out, but he is one of the least talented players I have seen in a Wings jersey and that goes clear back to the 80's.

 

[TatarTangle]

I seriously question if Lashoff has the talent. I am never really upset with his effort, I just think he is a bad NHL player. He is young maybe he can carve something out, but he is one of the least talented players I have seen in a Wings jersey and that goes clear back to the 80's.

I don't really disagree, talented may be the wrong word. He's had games where he looks like he is a competent bottom pairing or 7th defenseman. Doesn't cough the puck up, makes smart passes, somewhat physical in front of the net and in the corners. Now I don't expect much of anything, if at all, from him in the offensive zone but in the very least he can be responsible in his own end. And with the defensive corp the Red Wings have that's all I really want, please don't be a jackass in your own end.

 

[Winger98]

1. limit Quincey's use. Kindl/Lashoff is the flashpoint for our mediocre blueline, but Quincey is the guy who is most likely to be thrown out there for more minutes than he deserves. The guy is hard on his partners, often forcing them into having to make awkward/forced plays, and he doesn't generate any offense to make up for it. My hope is that we see a top4 of Kronwall, Ericsson, Dekeyser, and Smith. Then Quincey thrown out there for mop up minutes with whoever. We lean on Quincey too much, though, and the contribution from our backend will suffer, and we'll end up being stuck in our own zone too much.

2. Limit Z&D's exposure during the regular season. They are older, and we desperately need them for the playoffs to be any sort of legitimate threat. We have the potential depth to take a load off of their ES minutes. Instead of worrying about some guys having time to get their legs under them or whatever, just worry about being able to roll four lines. I think we could even give Z&D more PK time during the regular season instead, since it's less of a crash/bang time for them, and they are so good with the puck that they block fewer with their legs/feet/ankles and utilize their sticks instead.

3. get Howard going. With our blueline, we need our goalie to step up. If Howard is in a groove, and we know he likes a heavy workload, ride him.

 

[Yemack]

I think the main reason this thread was made by OP is his #1. so I I will only address that issue.

The problem was never about 'can smith deliver the puck from A to B?' it was about 'Was his puck carrying play really beneficial to the team overall?'. It just seemed for a long long time that he wasn't really able to grasp the puck management concept in terms of puck possession game Wings play. I guess he improved on that department towards the end of last season but honestly I didnt watch many of those games and my memory is bit hazy. Was it really him or was it Kronwall? I guess it's up to him to prove this season. It's about time he needs to put his best foot forward anyway. However, after watching years of him just not getting it, I'm bit skeptic. Of course, I would love to be proven wrong. Wings need him.

Also it's not sorely about puck carrying ability that we need from our PP. We desperately DESPERATELY need scoring from the back end during PP. I think this is a real critical element we miss. I even entertained a thought of starting a movement to promote Pulkkinen and putting him back there fairly seriously. If Smith can prove he has the shot and general quaterback ability, he's got the PP unit 2 job for sure.

 

[Winger98]

I think the main reason this thread was made by OP is his #1. so I I will only address that issue.

The problem was never about 'can smith deliver the puck from A to B?' it was about 'Was his puck carrying play really beneficial to the team overall?'. It just seemed for a long long time that he wasn't really able to grasp the puck management concept in terms of puck possession game Wings play. I guess he improved on that department towards the end of last season but honestly I didnt watch many of those games and my memory is bit hazy. Was it really him or was it Kronwall? I guess it's up to him to prove this season. It's about time he needs to put his best foot forward anyway. However, after watching years of him just not getting it, I'm bit skeptic. Of course, I would love to be proven wrong. Wings need him.

Also it's not sorely about puck carrying ability that we need from our PP. We desperately DESPERATELY need scoring from the back end during PP. I think this is a real critical element we miss. I even entertained a thought of starting a movement to promote Pulkkinen and putting him back there fairly seriously. If Smith can prove he has the shot and general quaterback ability, he's got the PP unit 2 job for sure.

I think you're going to be disappointed if that's what you're looking for. When I see Smith, I see a guy who does a really good job of first breaking into the zone and establishing position there. Once the powerplay is established, he does a great job of sliding down into soft spots between the circles when the PK is chasing our forwards around.

I don't think we have any D that is the classic PP QB in the mold of Lidstrom, Rafalski, or Murphy. Instead, we lean on our forwards to do it - Z&D on the first unit, and then whoever we could cobble together on the second. With the personnel we have I think Smith's ability to drift into soft spots is needed, though. It's one of the few things we see on our powerplay that isn't easy to read and that offers a bit of unpredictability with our PP.

 

[Yemack]

I think you're going to be disappointed if that's what you're looking for. When I see Smith, I see a guy who does a really good job of first breaking into the zone and establishing position there. Once the powerplay is established, he does a great job of sliding down into soft spots between the circles when the PK is chasing our forwards around.

I don't think we have any D that is the classic PP QB in the mold of Lidstrom, Rafalski, or Murphy. Instead, we lean on our forwards to do it - Z&D on the first unit, and then whoever we could cobble together on the second. With the personnel we have I think Smith's ability to drift into soft spots is needed, though. It's one of the few things we see on our powerplay that isn't easy to read and that offers a bit of unpredictability with our PP.

yes Winger you are quite right but I dont think that tendency to come down is going to help our PP that much. To think now, I dont think there are many PP out there that has a point guy sliding into a spot unless he carries it himself down.

I mean, it is rare to see such opening during PP. It is very hard to surprise pkers who are ultra aware of spaces and angles. To do that the puck has to come from down below or our forwards really have to cause chaos below or near hash mark and completely draw PKs attention away from Smith coming down. This is not soccer, there aren't any spaces in the middle that are 'left alone' during PP. Let's just say somehow Wings are able to consistently execute that, even then this kind of play gets figured out quick and if the pass is intercepted, it means a huge trouble. Trust me, PKs will be laying traps and waiting for Wings to make that pass to Smith.

If we have some sort of super forward that can weave in and out of traffic by himself consistently, it is better for that guy to just take the shot rather than making this gimmicky play. Better yet, make cross ice pass into weakside while the goalie is completely drawn to him.

I guess what Im trying to say is, if Smith makes the PP, his ability to jump in has to be supplementary not the primary reason why he is there. Who knows, maybe Smith has in him to do other things well. honestly I forgot how he played last spring... it's been long summer with many parties.

You are also right that Smith has not really shown his ability to get his shots through but the fact is, we need that element in our team and now is the time to see whether anyone can bring such ability to the table. This is just my opinion but if anyone shows he can, will make a strong case for himself to be on PP.

 

[Wings4Life]

Z & D together makes too much sense.

I would also wave Cleary about a month into the year, if he performs as expected.

 

[Winger98]

yes Winger you are quite right but I dont think that tendency to come down is going to help our PP that much. To think now, I dont think there are many PP out there that has a point guy sliding into a spot unless he carries it himself down.

I mean, it is rare to see such opening during PP. It is very hard to surprise pkers who are ultra aware of spaces and angles. To do that the puck has to come from down below or our forwards really have to cause chaos below or near hash mark and completely draw PKs attention away from Smith coming down. This is not soccer, there aren't any spaces in the middle that are 'left alone' during PP. Let's just say somehow Wings are able to consistently execute that, even then this kind of play gets figured out quick and if the pass is intercepted, it means a huge trouble. Trust me, PKs will be laying traps and waiting for Wings to make that pass to Smith.

If we have some sort of super forward that can weave in and out of traffic by himself consistently, it is better for that guy to just take the shot rather than making this gimmicky play. Better yet, make cross ice pass into weakside while the goalie is completely drawn to him.

I guess what Im trying to say is, if Smith makes the PP, his ability to jump in has to be supplementary not the primary reason why he is there. Who knows, maybe Smith has in him to do other things well. honestly I forgot how he played last spring... it's been long summer with many parties.

You are also right that Smith has not really shown his ability to get his shots through but the fact is, we need that element in our team and now is the time to see whether anyone can bring such ability to the table. This is just my opinion but if anyone shows he can, will make a strong case for himself to be on PP.

I think his ability to move down can help the powerplay, in that other teams have to watch for it. If he moves down and the PK is cheating a bit for it, then there has to be more room for the rest of the guys to also move around a bit. With how predictable our powerplay movement can become at times, I like that he could force teams into some more uncomfortable decisions.

Looking for a PPQB this year, I don't think the rest of the guys on the roster (outside of Kronwall, of course) have any special skill or attribute that put themselves over Smith. I think Dekeyser could be reliable there, and Quincey has shown an ability to produce when shoveled minutes, but I just don't see a reason for them getting the nod over Smith, and neither provide the ability to break down a D like Smith does.

Really, the only guy who would probably be an option and who would be that stereotypical PPQB is Sproul. And he might make the team solely for that, it wouldn't really surprise me.

Looking at our PP and our roster, I think we just need to recognize the fact that we don't really have the personnel to focus on guys at the point consistently threading shots through gobs of traffic.

 

[Yemack]

I think his ability to move down can help the powerplay, in that other teams have to watch for it. If he moves down and the PK is cheating a bit for it, then there has to be more room for the rest of the guys to also move around a bit. With how predictable our powerplay movement can become at times, I like that he could force teams into some more uncomfortable decisions.

Looking for a PPQB this year, I don't think the rest of the guys on the roster (outside of Kronwall, of course) have any special skill or attribute that put themselves over Smith. I think Dekeyser could be reliable there, and Quincey has shown an ability to produce when shoveled minutes, but I just don't see a reason for them getting the nod over Smith, and neither provide the ability to break down a D like Smith does.

Really, the only guy who would probably be an option and who would be that stereotypical PPQB is Sproul. And he might make the team solely for that, it wouldn't really surprise me.

Looking at our PP and our roster, I think we just need to recognize the fact that we don't really have the personnel to focus on guys at the point consistently threading shots through gobs of traffic.

maybe maybe not. But I like surprises and lets see how he does.

IMO, half the battle of scoring is actually believing you will score every shot. So I think at least half of this team can improve on that front.