Chili said:Eras don't compare in my opinion.
Different rules, equipment, style of play, # of teams, training, nutrition, travel, salaries, medical personnel, .....I'm sure someone can add to those.
Ogopogo said:Depends how you compare them. They can be easily compared, IMO.
tom_servo said:Easily compared? This is too ridiculous.
Benton Fraser said:I am just so glad there is someone as smart as PogoStick to show us the way, and do what hockey experts the world over have been unable to do, and do it in an easy manner.
Ogopogo said:Any insult coming from a Canucks fan is high praise, indeed!
Benton Fraser said:ok... so the hockey team that I cheer for through good times and bad, somehow reduces my ability to point out the obvious flaws in your arguement?
Ogopogo said:Depends how you compare them. They can be easily compared, IMO.
Chili said:You can easily compare apples and oranges as well. They are still two different things. It's much the same in comparing statistical accomplishments over eras. There are a long list of variables which render alot of comparisons meaningless.
Ogopogo said:Great. You see it your way, I will see it my way. No problem, we just see history in a different light. I believe that the variables can be reduced to irrelevant depending on how you make the comparison.
Chili said:If you want to convince someone, you would need to quantify that point by point to posts above. And yes, you are entitled to believe what you wish, my initial post was not directed to you.
Ogopogo said:The only exception to this is when a player completely dominates the league to a great degree. Joe Malone's 1918 scoring title was a 2 point win over Cy Denneny. That is a margin of 4%. Wayne Gretzky's 1987 scoring was by 75 points or 69%. That is a very different scoring title than Malone's. In my system, a player gets 9 points instead of 7 when they win the title by 25% or more. They get 11 points when they win it by 50% or more. Gretzky's 1987 title is worth 11 and Malone's of 1918 is worth 7. .
Chili said:You can spin the numbers many different ways but they were achieved under totally different circumstances.
It also assumes that all players have equivalent teammates. You don't score 200 points by yourself.
Lies, damned lies and statistics.(not my line but a good one).
Ogopogo said:I disagree with that, as well. Gretzky scored 137 points, as a rookie, with BJ MacDonald and Brett Callighen on his wings. He scored 164 points (broke the record) on a team where the second leading scorer had 75 points. Gretzky would have scored 200 points no matter what team he played for. You give teammates too much credit.
If teammates were the sole reason for players being great, how do you explain Dionne, Bathgate and Stastny? How do you explain Gretzky's time in LA?
The greats will score under any circumstances with any teammates anywhere. That is why they are great.
What difference do the circumstances of different eras make? Every player during any given season must play with the same rules of every other player in the league that year. There is always a scoring leader, there is always a #2. A scoring leader in the NHL is the best scorer in the NHL no matter what the rules,circumstances or season.
Benton Fraser said:How many times did Dionne win the scoring championship. Once. We can agree on that right. Ok now lets say you put him on the Montreal Canadiens of the same era, all of a sudden you would find that his point totals would increase exponentially because he would have better linemates. I didn't even think that this was an issue... I actually still can't believe you are serious when you think that linemates, and a teams style of play would have any impact.
Lets use the example of Elias for instance as he is a player you would know about. Put him on into the Colorado Avalanche lineup, or the Vancouver Canucks lineup and you would see a significant change in point totals. The players that they play with as well as the system that the team employs is not static between teams, and to think that that doesn't have an impact is foolish at best, and stupid at worst.
Benton Fraser said:That is exactly what I am saying, especially through a slapstick empirical ranking.
I am using logic and common sense, there is no way to gauge the player that Denneny was, there are to many variables and unknowns, which you completely ignore in your "ranking". Other poster have brought up legitiment points, and yet you just ignore them and call them stupid.Ogopogo said:Good for you Mr. Canuck. We disagree and we can leave it at that.
Use a little common sense and logic one day, it will do you good.
reckoning said:Guys who don`t deserve to be there
Dino Ciccarelli
Ogopogo said:I disagree with that, as well. Gretzky scored 137 points, as a rookie, with BJ MacDonald and Brett Callighen on his wings. He scored 164 points (broke the record) on a team where the second leading scorer had 75 points. Gretzky would have scored 200 points no matter what team he played for. You give teammates too much credit.
If teammates were the sole reason for players being great, how do you explain Dionne, Bathgate and Stastny? How do you explain Gretzky's time in LA?
The greats will score under any circumstances with any teammates anywhere. That is why they are great.
What difference do the circumstances of different eras make? Every player during any given season must play with the same rules of every other player in the league that year. There is always a scoring leader, there is always a #2. A scoring leader in the NHL is the best scorer in the NHL no matter what the rules,circumstances or season.
Benton Fraser said:I am using logic and common sense, there is no way to gauge the player that Denneny was, there are to many variables and unknowns, which you completely ignore in your "ranking". Other poster have brought up legitiment points, and yet you just ignore them and call them stupid.
Plus what does me being a Canucks fan have to do with anything?