Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Voting Results

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
13,902
3,557
Edmonton
@Theokritos I'm going to lobby that MacKay's positions in the top 200 thread be changed from C/R to C/RW

These are his season by season positions as listed in newspapers. He played more seasons as a winger than as a rover

1914-15 - C, eastern rules LW (according to Trail)
1915-16 - C
1916-17 - C
1917-18 - C, eastern rules RW/LW
1918-19 - R
1920-21- R
1921-22 - R, part time W. Eastern rules C
1922-23 - MacKay starts the season on D, plays about 8-10 games from there (early Nov-early Jan) before playing wing/RW regularly beside Boucher
1923-24 - W
1924-25 - W
1925-26 - W
1926-27 - Chicago is doing some weird stuff with their roster if you look at the personnel it kinda makes sense (when they get picked we can talk about it) C/W
1927-28 - W/C

Edit: Also Hod Stuart is listed as a C not a D
 

Theokritos

Global Moderator
Apr 6, 2010
12,538
4,911
@Theokritos I'm going to lobby that MacKay's positions in the top 200 thread be changed from C/R to C/RW

These are his season by season positions as listed in newspapers. He played more seasons as a winger than as a rover

1914-15 - C, eastern rules LW (according to Trail)
1915-16 - C
1916-17 - C
1917-18 - C, eastern rules RW/LW
1918-19 - R
1920-21- R
1921-22 - R, part time W. Eastern rules C
1922-23 - MacKay starts the season on D, plays about 8-10 games from there (early Nov-early Jan) before playing wing/RW regularly beside Boucher
1923-24 - W
1924-25 - W
1925-26 - W
1926-27 - Chicago is doing some weird stuff with their roster if you look at the personnel it kinda makes sense (when they get picked we can talk about it) C/W
1927-28 - W/C

Interesting, but convoluted. I only see him listed as RW in two seasons, but as Rover in three seasons. Then two citations at LW and, significantly, several seasons as an unspecified winger. Not sure RW should have prevalence here. Perhaps we should label MacKay as C/W/R?
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
13,902
3,557
Edmonton
Interesting, but convoluted. I only see him listed as RW in two seasons, but as Rover in three seasons. Then two citations at LW and, significantly, several seasons as an unspecified winger. Not sure RW should have prevalence here. Perhaps we should label MacKay as C/W/R?

The seasons at wing are because papers don't always list the winger positions individually but he is routinely listed in those situations against notable known RWs.

Once I finish my PCHA project it should be clearer since the Daily Colonist seems pretty good about listing positions. But Rover certainly shouldn't be listed since of his productive seasons they are all at C or most likely RW.

Some examples
08 Mar 1923
upload_2021-1-31_16-5-9-png.390985


18 Dec 1925
upload_2021-1-31_16-16-13-png.390990


March 20, 1923
upload_2021-1-31_14-52-37-png.390956
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
13,902
3,557
Edmonton
I listed at W since the papers like the final example I had access to when I was making the bio listed the winger positions inconclusively, but intuitively looking at the Millionaire's rosters post Taylor and post Rover MacKay being the RW makes the most sense. He honestly might be best described as "F"

Frank Patrick deployed him at every position short of goalie
 

Theokritos

Global Moderator
Apr 6, 2010
12,538
4,911
How about now?

Now I can see them, thanks.

So do you already have enough material to verify that he played only or mostly RW in those "W" seasons (as opposed to LW)? Or should we wait until you have finished your PCHA project to label him as RW?

Whether the R should be removed is another question. I'm not familiar enough with MacKay to tell which years of his career were significant. 1919-1921/1922 weren't, then?
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
13,902
3,557
Edmonton
Now I can see them, thanks.

So do you already have enough material to verify that he played only or mostly RW in those "W" seasons (as opposed to LW)? Or should we wait until you have finished your PCHA project to label him as RW?

Whether the R should be removed is another question. I'm not familiar enough with MacKay to tell which years of his career were significant. 1919-1921/1922 weren't, then?

You can wait hopefully should get there sometime this month but definitely should remove the rover for now

Bolded finishes are seasons he was definitely a winger and underlined are his rover seasons

Scoring:
PCHA Points – 2nd(1915), 2nd(1922), 2nd(1923), 3rd(1924), 6th(1917), 9th(1918), 10th(1916), 10th(1919), 10th(1921)
PCHA Goals – 1st(1915), 1st(1924), 2nd(1923), 5th(1922), 6th(1917), 9th(1918), 9th(1921), 10th(1919)
PCHA Assists – 1st(1922), 2nd(1915), 2nd(1923), 3rd(1916), 6th(1924), 8th(1921)

WCHL Points – 2nd(1925)
WCHL Goals – 1st(1925)

3 of his 5 best seasons are at W almost full time, 1 is at C and the other R/W

Edit: To answer your questions, to his legacy I'd argue those years are detrimental and not significant to his historical standing
 

Theokritos

Global Moderator
Apr 6, 2010
12,538
4,911
You can wait hopefully should get there sometime this month but definitely should remove the rover for now

Bolded finishes are seasons he was definitely a winger and underlined are his rover seasons

Scoring:
PCHA Points – 2nd(1915), 2nd(1922), 2nd(1923), 3rd(1924), 6th(1917), 9th(1918), 10th(1916), 10th(1919), 10th(1921)
PCHA Goals – 1st(1915), 1st(1924), 2nd(1923), 5th(1922), 6th(1917), 9th(1918), 9th(1921), 10th(1919)
PCHA Assists – 1st(1922), 2nd(1915), 2nd(1923), 3rd(1916), 6th(1924), 8th(1921)

WCHL Points – 2nd(1925)
WCHL Goals – 1st(1925)

3 of his 5 best seasons are at W almost full time, 1 is at C and the other R/W

Edit: To answer your questions, to his legacy I'd argue those years are detrimental and not significant to his historical standing

I'll change the designation to "C/W" for the time being.
 
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seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,080
7,132
Regina, SK
@Theokritos I'm going to lobby that MacKay's positions in the top 200 thread be changed from C/R to C/RW

These are his season by season positions as listed in newspapers. He played more seasons as a winger than as a rover

1914-15 - C, eastern rules LW (according to Trail)
1915-16 - C
1916-17 - C
1917-18 - C, eastern rules RW/LW
1918-19 - R
1920-21- R
1921-22 - R, part time W. Eastern rules C
1922-23 - MacKay starts the season on D, plays about 8-10 games from there (early Nov-early Jan) before playing wing/RW regularly beside Boucher
1923-24 - W
1924-25 - W
1925-26 - W
1926-27 - Chicago is doing some weird stuff with their roster if you look at the personnel it kinda makes sense (when they get picked we can talk about it) C/W
1927-28 - W/C

Edit: Also Hod Stuart is listed as a C not a D

Can you give your best guess as to the total number of games he spent at each position?

Actually, with different season lengths and with me wanting to weigh seasons equally, can you give the guesses on a by-season basis?
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
13,902
3,557
Edmonton
Can you give your best guess as to the total number of games he spent at each position?

Actually, with different season lengths and with me wanting to weigh seasons equally, can you give the guesses on a by-season basis?

I'll work on it
Edit if you check my thread on the ATD board I'm only 5 season in
 
Last edited:

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,080
7,132
Regina, SK
Hey everyone I'm doing this from my phone where I can voice to text. I don't know if I am going to be able to compile results today. I got a pretty bad cut on my finger and I really can't operate a keyboard comfortably, which is kind of essential for all of the spreadsheet work that it takes to compile these results. If I don't update this thread tonight that is why. Still I don't know how I will feel in 4 to 8 hours so you never know.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,672
16,395
Hey everyone I'm doing this from my phone where I can voice to text. I don't know if I am going to be able to compile results today. I got a pretty bad cut on my finger and I really can't operate a keyboard comfortably, which is kind of essential for all of the spreadsheet work that it takes to compile these results. If I don't update this thread tonight that is why. Still I don't know how I will feel in 4 to 8 hours so you never know.

I'm just done working and will send something ASAP.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,080
7,132
Regina, SK
PlayerTotal12345678910NR
Anze Kopitar138562111
Georges Boucher9122223 11 3
Bryan Hextall7833 111 223
Henrik Zetterberg71 16 3 1113
Ernie "Moose" Johnson621 212 22114
Alexei Kasatonov59 212211313
Lionel Conacher54 11412 25
Vaclav Nedomansky501121 2 9
Luc Robitaille45 1 1 43124
Mats Sundin40 311 1 10
Mark Recchi3811 1 3127
Jean Ratelle38 1 1332 6
Frank Fredrickson351 31 227
Billy Smith321 13 110
J.C. Tremblay30 2 1 11 11
Babe Dye191 1 1211
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
30,844
13,628
Wow, absolutely freaking brutal for Frank Fredrickson.

Zetterberg over him is weird, nevermind Sundin and Ratelle.

Full disclosure: I was the one to rank him #1, and I had Kopitar at #2.

Fredrickson peaked higher than all these guys, plus he had a decent all-around game, the star power, the leadership and the playoffs. His prime lasted 7 years—not great but not bad neither. I don't get it.
 
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Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,056
13,987
Of the 100 players on the NHL's 2017 top 100 players list, 92 of them are either on our list already (our top 100 project, plus the 65 players voted in so far), or are up for voting.

The eight players who haven't even yet come up for voting:
  1. Yvan Cournoyer
  2. Bob Gainey
  3. Mike Gartner
  4. Pat Lafontaine
  5. Joe Nieuwendyk
  6. Denis Savard
  7. Brendan Shanahan
  8. Darryl Sittler
It'll be interesting to see who appears on our list. I think most of these players will at least come up for voting. The least likely candidate - my guess would be Lafontaine.
 
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