Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time

[MXD]

Yes, it's in that book, but it doesn't tell who claimed it.

Well, that would require possessing a physical copy of the book, or some way to access it online.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Nous comprenons très très bien.

 

[sr edler]

I had Moose Johnson on my submitted list.

ehhedler certainly have Ernie Johnson on his list (81st). I think if people have him listed though it's probably in the bottom half of their lists, and some participants probably doesn't have him listed at all. He came in 41st in the top 60 defenseman project done on this site, so with all centers, wingers, goalies coming in, it could be tight for him to squeeze in here. You could say his pre-West career as a multiple Stanley Cup winning winger (1905–1911) could propel or help him climb, but I'm not certain everyone took that aspect of his career well into consideration.


One tidbit I can share on Ernie Johnson is that he almost ended up playing hockey in Brooklyn and the American Amateur League. This was prior to the 1905–06 season, when he was 19 years old and had played two seasons with the Montreal Hockey Club (AAA) in the CAHL.

It was Tom "Atty" Howard, former Stanley Cup champion forward with the Winnipeg Victorias and manager of the Brooklyn Skating Club hockey team, who tried to acquire a group of Canadian players to his team prior to the 1905–06 campaign. Among those players he tried to acquire were Ottawa Hockey Club (FAHL) forward Horace Gaul (actually played one game for the Brooklyn club) and Montreal Wanderers (FAHL) forward Frank "Pud" Glass.

Scotland-born Pud Glass was a childhood friend of Ernie Johnson's (who was two years Glass' junior), from the Point-Saint-Charles neighborhood of Montreal, and the two also played together on the Montreal St. Lawrence team in the CAHL-Jr. league, so when the Brooklyn club tried to fetch Glass prior to the 1905–06 season, Johnson was also part of the speculated players joining Tom Howard's team. The whole thing fell through though because the Canadian players were deemed to be professionals by the American Amateur League rules committee and the Brooklyn SC ceased its operations after only 2 games that season. Glass and Johnson joined the Montreal Wanderers instead (in the ECAHA) as open professionals and went on to win several Stanley Cups with the team, being an inseparable duo off the ice.

Incidentally, another Montreal based HHOF defenseman (turned from forward) from this era actually went through the American Amateur League, Sprague Cleghorn with the New York Wanderers. Cleghorn played center for the New York club in 1909–10, centering brother Odie and playing over-the-top dirty as usual.

 

[Killion]

That seems a bit wrong to me. There were players who played somewhat similar to Shore before him; in fact, by all descriptions, Eddie Shore is basically a better, saner Sprague Cleghorn. But after him? Well... straight to Bobby Orr, more than 25 years later. One could argue that it's a thing of skill : someone like, I dunno, Ken Reardon maybe, could've been Eddie Shore had he been more skilled. But Kelly and Harvey definitely HAD skill... but didn't play like Shore at all.

Oh? Perhaps you should do some further digging & research. Burrow down below the surface a bit, all the wild tales, ultra violence, you'll find quite the creative player indeed.

Real force out there who could just as easily let his play, skating, stickhandling, his shot, whole big bag of tricks do the talking beyond his body, fists.

He was fearless of course, jumped into, would lead rushes, rag the puck in killing off penalties, was given a bigger birth, more room than Gordie Howe. Single handedly could totally dominate a game, speed it up or it slow it down.

Total package...channeled Freddy Kreuger when required. Not always voluntarily of course.

So ya. If you havent already made your mind up about Shore, look him up. Amazing player, Man, life.

 

[MXD]

Oh? Perhaps you should do some further digging & research. If you dig down below the surface a bit, all the wild tales, ultra violence, you'll find quite the creative player indeed. Real force out there who could just as easily let his play, skating, stickhandling, his shot, whole big bag of tricks do the talking beyond his body, fists. He was fearless of course, jumped into, would lead rushes, rag the puck in killing off penalties, was given a bigger birth, more room than Gordie Howe. Single handedly could totally dominate a game, speed it up or it slow it down.

Total package...channeled Freddy Kreuger when required. Not always voluntarily of course.

I'm not saying he wasn't : he was absolutely creative. My point was mostly that :

- There were players who played like Eddie Shore before Eddie Shore (they were just not as good as him)
- It went a long time before a player whose game was anywhere alike Eddie Shore (in fact... straight to Bobby Orr).

With the only players who played a possibly similar game were the likes of Babe Pratt (... sortof) and Ken Reardon, and even then, they really didn't play like Shore at all.

 

[Killion]

I'm not saying he wasn't : he was absolutely creative. My point was mostly that :

- There were players who played like Eddie Shore before Eddie Shore (they were just not as good as him)
- It went a long time before a player whose game was anywhere alike Eddie Shore (in fact... straight to Bobby Orr).

Right. So how is it that you would dismiss his influence & importance to the development of not just how Defense could be played, how he played it, indeed, how he approached the game influencing play offensively as well as defensively (?). In the entire Pantheon of Greatest Players to some of us Shores star still shines as brightly as that of Harveys', Orr's, Mikitas' and many others. Hence the high ranking, ratings. Hugely influential player. He laid down the tracks (and the Law) in Boston upon which Orr skated into prominence. Bostonians, Schmidt, the entire organization more than a wee bit familiar with Orr's propensities having seen it before and appreciating the creativity & toughness in a Defenceman of that ilk, gave him (and those that followed Orr) the headroom & rope to do what he did. That was thanks to Eddie. The Bruins having an almost unbroken chain since Shore of some of the Greatest Defenceman in the History of the game. Eddy Shore the Godfather. Savvy?

 

[MXD]

Right. So how is it that you would dismiss his influence & importance to the development of not just how Defense could be played, how he played it, indeed, how he approached the game influencing play offensively as well as defensively (?). In the entire Pantheon of Greatest Players to some of us Shores star still shines as brightly as that of Harveys', Orr's, Mikitas' and many others. Hence the high ranking, ratings. Hugely influential player.

We're then left with something of a metaphysical question : Can a player be influential if whatever he did is imitated by absolutely no one afterwards?

 

[Killion]

We're then left with something of a metaphysical question : Can a player be influential if whatever he did is imitated by absolutely no one afterwards?

Again, you seem to be focused entirely on the Ultra Violence, his various transgressions which of course make for great reading but do little to give him a fair hearing. Shore was playing the angles as a Defenceman before anyone had fully figured that out. Economy of motion & expenditure of energy. Zone coverage. Folding isosceles trapezoid angulation. Size of the player did not matter if you had that dialed in. He saw grids, thought mathematically. Way ahead of his time. Used his speed & acceleration to speed things up, slow them down. An opportunist who in studying his opponents & finding the weaknesses through the neutral zone would lead or jump into a rush and often with no thought of scoring himself but in thinking 3 moves ahead whereby in doing so it would leave a Winger or his Center wide open unchallenged in front of the net. Tic tac toe.... But I get it. He's been painted a Psychopath. Thats what sells. Unfortunate as under far closer scrutiny & objective study beyond the gory tales.... well. I'd urge anyone / everyone to look this guy up.

 

[MXD]

Again, you seem to be focused entirely on the Ultra Violence, his various transgressions which of course make for great reading but do little to give him a fair hearing. Shore was playing the angles as a Defenceman before anyone had fully figured that out. Economy of motion & expenditure of energy. Zone coverage. Folding isosceles trapezoid angulation. Size of the player did not matter if you had that dialed in. He saw grids, thought mathematically. Way ahead of his time. Used his speed & acceleration to speed things up, slow them down. An opportunist who in studying his opponents & finding the weaknesses through the neutral zone would lead or jump into a rush and often with no thought of scoring himself but in thinking 3 moves ahead whereby in doing so it would leave a Winger or his Center wide open unchallenged in front of the net. Tic tac toe.... But I get it. He's been painted a Psychopath. Thats what sells. Unfortunate as under far closer scrutiny & objective study beyond the gory tales.... well. I'd urge anyone / everyone to look this guy up.

I'm more focused on puckrushing than on violence.

 

[Killion]

I'm more focused on puckrushing than on violence.

.... ok. then I'm pretty darn sure youd have appreciated those aspects of Shores game. He was a real "thinker", had the kind of tremendous "vision" and 6th sense one associates with even the far less physical players of more recent vintage. It's unfortunate in some ways that his misdeeds overshadow his play & contributions to the game. Bit of a Dr. Jekyl & Mr. Hyde for sure. Beyond a Bobby Clarke. Louie Fontinato etc in that department.

Hard to really get a good bead on it all in looking back through the prisms of 21st century sensibilities given how much the game has changed, evolved. However in discussing Shore with old timers, guys who had played with, against or for Shore in Springfield, before the Dime Bio's were published, he wasnt referred to by those who's opinions I respected as a total ogre, psych-job Cowboy.... but as the Greatest Defenceman and all-round player of his Generation, era. A Superstar. Game Changer. Total force out there who influenced generations of players, changed the game itself and for the better.

 

[Theokritos]

We're then left with something of a metaphysical question : Can a player be influential if whatever he did is imitated by absolutely no one afterwards?

Well, if my read is correct then Shore's rushing was copied by multiple teams - with varying success and with the effect that large parts of the game turned into prolonged scrambles on both ends of the rink. Which in turn prompted the introduction of the red line and the abolishment of the defensive blue line offside.

Thus the center line was basically introduced because of Eddie Shore. That's pretty influential, isn't it?

 

[MXD]

Well, if my read is correct then Shore's rushing was copied by multiple teams - with varying success and with the effect that large parts of the game turned into prolonged scrambles on both ends of the rink. Which in turn prompted the introduction of the red line and the abolishment of the defensive blue line offside.

Thus the center line was basically introduced because of Eddie Shore. That's pretty influential, isn't it?

... I guess I'll have some reading to do

 

[Bear of Bad News]

• Kennedy, Ryan, ed. (2010), "Blood Feuds: Hockey's Best-Ever Rivalries", The Hockey News, Transcontinental Books, ISBN 978-0-9813938-1-0

But seriously, @Bear of Bad News , @Theokritos ... Do you really want this to be the "standard" ? Honest question... Because, from where I'm standing from, it does appear we're asking (of Claude Pepe Lemieux) to meet a standard that absolutely no one else is asked to meet, and that doesn't seem quite right to me.

Honest answer - if the poster had said "hey, I don't have a source here but it's what I remember", that would have been fine in my opinion.

Especially given his behavior elsewhere in the subforum, the "Lulz I'm going to claim what I want and don't have to justify myself to anyone" attitude is garbage and is trolling.

More clear? The rule I expect everyone to follow here is "treat one another with respect and don't be a dick."

 

[Theokritos]

... I guess I'll have some reading to do

A good place to start is the excellent thread by nik jr that is linked in our Souces & Resources sticky:

Origins and Development of Hockey

• Evolution of the Power Play
  Traces "power play" back to the 1930s NHL tactic of pressure hockey/ganging attacks prior to the introduction of the center line.

 

[Killion]

The rule I expect everyone to follow here is "treat one another with respect and don't be a dick."

.... alrighty then.

 

[Canadiens1958]

.... alrighty then.

Killion and I share a unique interpretation of certain words.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

The rule I expect everyone to follow here is "treat one another with respect and don't be a dick."

Yeah. To paraphrase Jeff Foxworthy, you might have a shed under-the-bridge if your posts are willfully irritating.

And I'm grateful when we put a fez over top of such dickage.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Back to the source issue. Deep minor trivia, raised in the context of between period banter at the local arena over a beer should simply be recognized as such and left alone.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Shore got a severed ear because the foolish young 24 year old tried to show up the 34 year old tough veteran who was the new guy on the team in training camp.

Shore took a run at Billy Coutu, who was the Habs captain the year before and Sprague Cleghorn's partner in violent crime on the ice in Montreal for several years where they had been Stanley Cup champions. Coutu raised his stick instinctively and the two crashed into the boards, Shore getting the worst of it.

Later that season, in the Stanley Cup Finals, coach Art Ross said openly in the dressing room between periods that he would pay a bounty if someone would hit the ref. The coach was frustrated with some of the penalty calls in their series against the mighty Ottawa dynasty club. Loyal footsoldier Coutu went out and did the deed and was banned for life. Players objected and cited the fact that Ross had specified a dollar amount and actually had paid it afterwards. The NHL eventually overturned the lifetime ban a couple of years later when it all came out, but by then old Coutu had moved on in his life and never played again.

This is exactly why it’s sonetimes hard to take hockey from that era seriously

 

[Canadiens1958]

It still doesn’t locate a specific source there, just through books which claims "some accounts" or the like.

This is where things go downhill fast:

Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time

Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time

Willing participant, making "non-sourced" on topic contributions himself, stating he remembers the circumstances but does not "bookmark" turns on the others and demands sources.

Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time

So what exactly are these"source" standards?

Please clarify.

 

[BadgerBruce]

Back to the source issue. Deep minor trivia, raised in the context of between period banter at the local arena over a beer should simply be recognized as such and left alone.

Agreed.

 

[sr edler]

If you want to do some extra reading on players that came before Eddie Shore and helped revolutionize the position, a good place to start is Moose Johnson.

One thing with Ernie Johnson is that he was quite an outgoing jolly personality and thus appears quite a lot in newspaper accounts, and not only regarding on-ice things. It's the opposite thing with Harry Cameron. Cameron apparently was a grumpy introvert type, so there aren't as much newspaper accounts/stories regarding him. He's an intriguing player too.

Moose Johnson also liked to drink some. There's a story from The Brooklyn Daily Eagle (7 February 1932) recalling his drinking escapades in Victoria, BC in the early 1920s where he would stay at different ports of call to do some light back room bragging. After about 5 drinks the conversation would switch to hockey.

"Two greatest players in the world, " Moose would declaim owlishly
"One's Ernie Johnson. The other's Moose Johnson."​

But one afternoon the bragging party was joined by no one less than Lester Patrick, Johnson's own teammate on the Victoria Aristocrats PCHA hockey team, so Moose became a little more broadminded in his selection of greatest ever players.
​

"Three greatest players in the world," he declared while rising shakily to his feet
"are Ernie Johnson, Moose Johnson and Lester Patrick."
​

But no sooner had Lester Patrick departed the place before Johnson had still another amendment.

"All nonsense," he cried out, blinking at the closing door
"Only two players – Ernie Johnson and Moose Johnson."​

 

[blueandgoldguy]

I'd like to think that Crosby still has a chance to move up the list (when it is inevitably redone 5 - 7 years from now) even if he doesn't win another Stanley Cup. Point per game seasons with some decent playoff performances should be enough imo...it shows longevity which should be factored in.

 

[The Macho King]

I'd like to think that Crosby still has a chance to move up the list (when it is inevitably redone 5 - 7 years from now) even if he doesn't win another Stanley Cup. Point per game seasons with some decent playoff performances should be enough imo...it shows longevity which should be factored in.

It's a minor factor IMO. He needs more "prime" seasons I think - which for the record I think he still has the gas left in his tank to do.

 

[ImporterExporter]

It's a minor factor IMO. He needs more "prime" seasons I think - which for the record I think he still has the gas left in his tank to do.

Outside a few games he's off to a tremendous start this year. Missed 3 games recently with some sort of upper body issue (non concussion) but 22 in 17, a +9 and great possession numbers and good faceoff statistics. Only 6 points have come on the PP. Just has to stay healthy the rest of the way but Sid's still got plenty left in the tank.

I do think the bulk of any remaining big positives will come in the postseason. That's where he's going to really move up IMO.