Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time

[Canadiens1958]

You referring to the controversy over Art Ross's deployment of "Kitty Bar the Door" tactics C58?

Ross was not the only one. Variations -"lob","dump and chase", etc.

First pass or transition came much later.

 

[Killion]

Ross was not the only one. Variations -"lob","dump and chase", etc.

First pass or transition came much later.

Yeah. Interesting find in the archives. Leo Dandurand, Flying Frenchman singularly unimpressed.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Yeah. Interesting find in the archives. Leo Dandurand, Flying Frenchman singularly unimpressed.

,
Yes, except they would lob or dump and chase at times, using the speed of Morenz, Joliat, Lepine.

 

[Killion]

,
Yes, except they would lob or dump and chase at times, using the speed of Morenz, Joliat, Lepine.

Yeah. None the less, pretty formidable for all 3 Habs. Dumped it Left or Right Side.... your facing Eddie Shore or Lionel Hitchman. Hows that for options? Not good. Howie Morenz in particular a favorite target as of course he'd go screaming in, Hitchman & shore snaring him in a diabolical isosceles triangle, brick wall. Heard stories they wouldnt even play the puck on a dump in. Just waited to see which Hab theyd be sending to the infirmary that night..... Duo of Doom awaiting with Rictus Grins on their faces... never mind poor Wee Aurel Joliat. Crush him like a Bug.... and they did. Repeatedly.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Initial late 1930's Icing Rule was modified in 1945 to reflect the modern rule:

The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Initial late 1930's Icing Rule was modified in 1945 to reflect the modern rule:

The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search

Article also states that only one assist was to be awarded per goal. Yet we can plainly see that all six teams finished with more assists than goals in the 1945-46 season. Evidently the rule was either promptly rescinded or ignored altogether.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Article also states that only one assist was to be awarded per goal. Yet we can plainly see that all six teams finished with more assists than goals in the 1945-46 season. Evidently the rule was either promptly rescinded or ignored altogether.

Next meeting most likely. Was more interested in the "Icing Rule" change.

Thru the O6 era at least, in season rule modifications were common.

Would love to see the minutes of the various NHL meeting.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Next meeting most likely. Was more interested in the "Icing Rule" change.

Thru the O6 era at least, in season rule modifications were common.

Would love to see the minutes of the various NHL meeting.

Wouldn't that be something. Highly doubt they will ever release those archives though. Best to keep the fans merely suspecting that things aren't always on the level than to release the transcripts and remove all doubt.

 

[Killion]

Initial late 1930's Icing Rule was modified in 1945 to reflect the modern rule:

The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search

What?!.... The red line running from the goalposts used to be the same line as the top of the crease? 15' out from the boards until 1945? So basically running along the same line as the top of the old rectangular crease?... That is/was insane.... And Art Ross. Gets shot down in wanting to remove the Center Ice Red, so then suggests "lets get rid of the Blue-Lines then. Vote please". Genius or Moron? No wonder Conn Smythe was forever losing his shit with the guy... didnt speak to him for some 15 years.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Wouldn't that be something. Highly doubt they will ever release those archives though. Best to keep the fans merely suspecting that things aren't always on the level than to release the transcripts and remove all doubt.

Would clarify various interpretations and misconceptions.
Example how assists were defined and accorded.

 

[Canadiens1958]

What?!.... The red line running from the goalposts used to be the same line as the top of the crease? 15' out from the boards until 1945? So basically running along the same line as the top of the old rectangular crease?... That is/was insane.... And Art Ross. Gets shot down in wanting to remove the Center Ice Red, so then suggests "lets get rid of the Blue-Lines then. Vote please". Genius or Moron? No wonder Conn Smythe was forever losing his **** with the guy... didnt speak to him for some 15 years.

The chase part of icing makes it seem that initially "icing" may have been "no touch".

Adding "touch" would require better skating defencemen.

 

[BadgerBruce]

Next meeting most likely. Was more interested in the "Icing Rule" change.

Thru the O6 era at least, in season rule modifications were common.

Would love to see the minutes of the various NHL meeting.

D’arcy Jenish quotes from some league meeting minutes in The NHL: A Centennial History, but I get the strong sense that verbatim meeting transcripts simply do not exist and the most we could ever hope to lay eyes on would amount to “Moved, Seconded, Discussion, Carried.”

 

[BadgerBruce]

What?!.... The red line running from the goalposts used to be the same line as the top of the crease? 15' out from the boards until 1945? So basically running along the same line as the top of the old rectangular crease?... That is/was insane.... And Art Ross. Gets shot down in wanting to remove the Center Ice Red, so then suggests "lets get rid of the Blue-Lines then. Vote please". Genius or Moron? No wonder Conn Smythe was forever losing his **** with the guy... didnt speak to him for some 15 years.

If true, that’s beyond bizarre — I can’t even think of an intensifier strong enough. I’m floored.

 

[Canadiens1958]

D’arcy Jenish quotes from some league meeting minutes in The NHL: A Centennial History, but I get the strong sense that verbatim meeting transcripts simply do not exist and the most we could ever hope to lay eyes on would amount to “Moved, Seconded, Discussion, Carried.”

Would advance things quite a bit. Certainly beyond speculation about various biases.

 

[Killion]

If true, that’s beyond bizarre — I can’t even think of an intensifier strong enough. I’m floored.

I have no reason to doubt the veracity, integrity of the reporter.... So ya, once again, truth far stranger than any fiction you or I, that anyone really could dream up.... Absolutely bizarre Badger. Art Ross... certifiable.... As for that Red Line running through the top of the crease, possibly beyond (?!)... new one on me. Makes zero sense. Beyond bizarre. Have serious doubts. Film, photos obviously exist. Pre-1945. Gonna do a little detective work.

 

[BadgerBruce]

I have no reason to doubt the veracity, integrity of the reporter.... So ya, once again, truth far stranger than any fiction you or I, that anyone really could dream up.... Absolutely bizarre Badger. Art Ross... certifiable.... As for that Red Line running through the top of the crease, possibly beyond (?!)... new one on me. Makes zero sense. Beyond bizarre. Have serious doubts. Film, photos obviously exist. Pre-1945. Gonna do a little detective work.

If you’re really going on a Holmesian mission, start with that anti-betting regulation — “no player, club owner, executive, official, trainer, stick boy, or anyone connected with a team or the league can bet on a game. This goes even though his own team may not be playing in a game.” If I read the entire article correctly, this would seem to apply to both the NHL and CAHA?

 

[Canadiens1958]

If you’re really going on a Holmesian mission, start with that anti-betting regulation — “no player, club owner, executive, official, trainer, stick boy, or anyone connected with a team or the league can bet on a game. This goes even though his own team may not be playing in a game.” If I read the entire article correctly, this would seem to apply to both the NHL and CAHA?

Unified rules so should apply to both. Could have added press and media unless covered in bolded.

 

[Sentinel]

I think all this is saying is all that IE is saying, which is we should focus on how good a player is in absolute terms,

Is there such a thing? In "absolute terms" Ovechkin would obliterate Hull. Even with the old equipment, the best players are faster, stronger, smarter, etc. than the best players 50 years ago (in a "time machine" scenario).

 

[seventieslord]

Is there such a thing? In "absolute terms" Ovechkin would obliterate Hull. Even with the old equipment, the best players are faster, stronger, smarter, etc. than the best players 50 years ago (in a "time machine" scenario).

Totally different interpretation of the phrase "in absolute terms"

 

[Nick Hansen]

Didn't Red Kelly get a bit too much mileague out of his Toronto years? His first half of his career was excellent but the second half...yeah, he was a good/very good #2C.

 

[The Macho King]

Didn't Red Kelly get a bit too much mileague out of his Toronto years? His first half of his career was excellent but the second half...yeah, he was a good/very good #2C.

If it helps, I'm pretty sure Yzerman is going to get that same benefit.

But even aside from that - Kelly was an absolutely stud Dman who wouldn't have been out of place on the list at that time *as a Dman*. Toronto years gave some intangible points, but I thought of them as a tiebreaker because the tangibles were already there.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

The biggest "plus" for Kelly in my books was the great quote presented that Imlach acquired him and moved him to center because he needed somebody to go up against Jean Beliveau. The results of that experiment speak for themselves. Toronto supplanted Montreal as the dominant team of the 1960s up until Kelly's retirement.

 

[BadgerBruce]

The biggest "plus" for Kelly in my books was the great quote presented that Imlach acquired him and moved him to center because he needed somebody to go up against Jean Beliveau. The results of that experiment speak for themselves. Toronto supplanted Montreal as the dominant team of the 1960s up until Kelly's retirement.

I’m not a voter in this project but would agree with this.

After being discharged from the army following WWII, Punch Imlach joined the Quebec Aces as a player for 4 seasons and became head coach in 49-50. Beliveau joined the Aces full-time in 1951 and stayed for 2 seasons (172 points in 116 games, including a 50 goal season). On many occasions, Imlach called Beliveau “the greatest player I ever coached.”

Imlach’s belief almost a decade after first coaching Beliveau that Red Kelly could effectively go head-to-head against this sublimely talented Hab speaks volumes. Outside of Blake and the Habs brain trust, Imlach likely understood Beliveau’s gifts better than anyone in the NHL. Multiple sources already cited in this project speak to the faith Imlach had in Kelly to pull off this feat, so I’m with you, KM. A defenceman and sometimes left winger converts to centre and matches up against the greatest pivot the game had ever seen? And it worked? That’s a major check mark beside Kelly’s name.

 

[wetcoast]

If it helps, I'm pretty sure Yzerman is going to get that same benefit.

But even aside from that - Kelly was an absolutely stud Dman who wouldn't have been out of place on the list at that time *as a Dman*. Toronto years gave some intangible points, but I thought of them as a tiebreaker because the tangibles were already there.

Kelly was indeed the standard in the regular season for Dmen but he had some lows in the playoffs for Detroit and even in Toronto his plus minus in the playoffs really stands out, in a bad way, on those teams.

After the age of 29 he has one good to very good year and another decent on, the rest were meh, for where he ends up being ranked.

For a player ranked as high as Kelly was I think those warts really stand out.

 

[wetcoast]

The biggest "plus" for Kelly in my books was the great quote presented that Imlach acquired him and moved him to center because he needed somebody to go up against Jean Beliveau. The results of that experiment speak for themselves. Toronto supplanted Montreal as the dominant team of the 1960s up until Kelly's retirement.

That's a great quote but Johnny Bower and the stacked Leaf lineup sure helped as well.

Jean and the Habs started to slip the 2 previous playoffs, losing both times to the Black Hawks, before the Leafs first SC in the 60's.

I'm not saying that Red Kelly didn't help, he did, but there was a ton of reasons why those Leafs won 3 straight in the 60's.