Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Voting Results (Part 1)

Michael Farkas

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Jun 28, 2006
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OK but then what? Potvin, Bossy, Trottier, all overrated? Where does the buck stops?

Just because an era stinks doesn't mean the players in it all stink too. That's why you have to watch the games and look at some trends and make an informed decision. If it's never brought up though, it's never challenged in the proper way and we don't make an informed decision...
 

Michael Farkas

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Jun 28, 2006
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Who mentioned the 2009 ranking. All I said was that a lot of people ranked Conacher higher in round one of this project than you did, Nothing more complicated than that.

Yes, that's all well and good. My hypothesis is that a lot of people ranked Conacher in such a way because he was ranked up [here] before and not because we hashed out his deservedness to go now in these threads...this goes part and parcel with your thoughts on Malkin and Pronger (and previously, Crosby)...and while my intention is not to "complicate" it, my intention is to tie your comments (and mine) to my over-arching point...which I have stated in no uncertain terms I do believe. It's bigger than Conacher or Shore or Malkin.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
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But why are they in the same conversation? Bossy was a better player for twice as long in a better era against better competition...what am I missing, I swear I am not normally this dumb (Probably)...

The underlined has to be qualified, and the bold is ... well, no.

I'm not saying Conacher was better than Bossy : Bossy was rightfully ranked ahead (that playoffs advantage is not small). But Bossy 36th to Conacher 55th is not internally coherent, at all.

Disclaimer : I had overrated Conacher in R1.
 
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MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
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Dickie Moore was a better player than Cy Denneny at every single f***ing aspect of the game. EXCEPT longevity and maybe gooning. I guess that longevity is a valid reason to rank Denneny ahead, but if I may, that would just be like, taking a very voluminous dump on basically all of your posts.

And Dickie Moore wouldn't look that great in this group.
 

Nick Hansen

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Sep 28, 2017
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Denneny played through the same era as Frank Nighbor. The game was different back then and Nighbor provided a lot of defensive greatness that Denneny didn't. But Denneny scored 16 goals in 25 PO games in an era that was very low-scoring. Nighbor had 4 goals in 20 games.

RS Denneny was 2,4,2,3,3,1,3,4,8 in goalscoring, 1,5,4,3,3,2 in assists and 2,4,2,2,2,1,3,2 in points during the same era while Nighbor was 3,3,5,10 in goals and 6,1,1,2,8,7 in assists. Points overall was: 10,2,3,5,9,6.

I mean, he must've been otherworldly awful at anything but scoring points to off-set that? Did he just stand at the blue-line?
 
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Dennis Bonvie

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Dec 29, 2007
29,206
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Connecticut
Dickie Moore was a better player than Cy Denneny at every single ****ing aspect of the game. EXCEPT longevity and maybe gooning. I guess that longevity is a valid reason to rank Denneny ahead, but if I may, that would just be like, taking a very voluminous dump on basically all of your posts.

And Dickie Moore wouldn't look that great in this group.

You talkin' ta me?

If you are, I don't recall saying anything about Dickie Moore or where I might rank Cy Denneny. Hence, I don't get your disgusting and vulgar post at all.

If not, never mind.
 

ChiTownPhilly

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Feb 23, 2010
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I am seeing myself as more and more of an outlier here. Its like wasting your vote if you vote Republican in Massachusetts...
I am also very disappointed with the new players. No Max Bentley. Max may be the most skilled player that hasn't come up. No Bill Gadsby. I guess I am not surprised due to the hatchet job that was done on him in the defenceman project.
I have some iconoclastic opinions, as well. We're currently discussing a player whom I have about level-pegging with Max Bentley. Hell, I think we've already advanced a player inferior to Bill Gadsby. Still, I'm having fun.

So some of my iconoclastic opinions meet with resistance? Well, that's my invitation to buttress my research and present better arguments. Even if they're not accepted, I'm learning something extra. The Charlie Conacher research has been especially fascinating to me.

To everyone who finds themselves going against the grain a little and is still here anyway, thanks for sticking around. It's good that we do so. Far better that than pull the bitch-move and withdraw from the project just because you're uncomfortable with the direction that it's going. Everyone who remains should take a solemn oath- "I won't be that bitch."
 
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seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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Regina, SK
Denneny played through the same era as Frank Nighbor. The game was different back then and Nighbor provided a lot of defensive greatness that Denneny didn't. But Denneny scored 16 goals in 25 PO games in an era that was very low-scoring. Nighbor had 4 goals in 20 games.

RS Denneny was 2,4,2,3,3,1,3,4,8 in goalscoring, 1,5,4,3,3,2 in assists and 2,4,2,2,2,1,3,2 in points during the same era while Nighbor was 3,3,5,10 in goals and 6,1,1,2,8,7 in assists. Points overall was: 10,2,3,5,9,6.

I mean, he must've been otherworldly awful at anything but scoring points to off-set that? Did he just stand at the blue-line?

it may be hard to understand by looking at those stats, but the newspaper reports said that nighbor was always a better player than Denneny. Thank goodness we have more than just stats to evaluate these players with.
 
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BenchBrawl

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I'm slowly turning around to ranking Moore over Geoffrion.Not sure what that means for Moore vs. Denneny, but since Denneny was basically Geoffrion...
 
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MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,668
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Really? Not goal scoring?

Denneny led the NHL exactly once in 1924 when playing with pretty much the four lone pass-first guys in hockey at that point. Of course, in the grand scheme of things, Dennenny might have been better through longevity. I really, but really don't care about Denneny finishing 3rd in the NHL in a 3-team league when playing with an obvious reluctant shooter who was a MUCH better player.
 

Kyle McMahon

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May 10, 2006
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Denneny played through the same era as Frank Nighbor. The game was different back then and Nighbor provided a lot of defensive greatness that Denneny didn't. But Denneny scored 16 goals in 25 PO games in an era that was very low-scoring. Nighbor had 4 goals in 20 games.

RS Denneny was 2,4,2,3,3,1,3,4,8 in goalscoring, 1,5,4,3,3,2 in assists and 2,4,2,2,2,1,3,2 in points during the same era while Nighbor was 3,3,5,10 in goals and 6,1,1,2,8,7 in assists. Points overall was: 10,2,3,5,9,6.

I mean, he must've been otherworldly awful at anything but scoring points to off-set that? Did he just stand at the blue-line?

Keep in mind the NHL only had approximately half the top talent during Denneny's career, so those leaderboard placements are inflated.

Ultimately contemporary accounts credit Nighbor as the linch pin of the Ottawa dynasty, and Eddie Gerard and other great defensemen were spoken highly of, moreso than Denneny seemed to be.

I'd guess Denneny will probably come up towards the end. Mind you, I would have said the same thing about Selanne until earlier today, so who knows maybe Cy is just around the corner.
 

overpass

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Jun 7, 2007
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Denneny played through the same era as Frank Nighbor. The game was different back then and Nighbor provided a lot of defensive greatness that Denneny didn't. But Denneny scored 16 goals in 25 PO games in an era that was very low-scoring. Nighbor had 4 goals in 20 games.

RS Denneny was 2,4,2,3,3,1,3,4,8 in goalscoring, 1,5,4,3,3,2 in assists and 2,4,2,2,2,1,3,2 in points during the same era while Nighbor was 3,3,5,10 in goals and 6,1,1,2,8,7 in assists. Points overall was: 10,2,3,5,9,6.

I mean, he must've been otherworldly awful at anything but scoring points to off-set that? Did he just stand at the blue-line?

If you include the Stanley Cup final games, which hockey-reference is missing but nhl.com has, Denneny scored 19 goals in 41 playoff games. So he only scored 3 goals in 16 pre-consolidation Cup Final games.

In the dynasty Cup-winning seasons of 1920, 1921, and 1923, Ottawa leading playoff scorers were as follows:

Nighbor: 8 goals, 15 pts
Darragh: 11 goals, 13 pts
Denneny: 7 goals, 13 pts
Boucher: 9 goals, 11 pts
Broadbent: 8 goals, 11 pts

Denneny was certainly an important offensive player but not the clear offensive leader in the dynasty years.

On the strongest Ottawa team of them all, the 1919-20 club, Denneny was relegated to the bench behind Jack Darragh and George Boucher in the Cup final, and scored 0 goals in 5 games.

NHL.com - Stats
 
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BenchBrawl

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If you include the Stanley Cup final games, which hockey-reference is missing but nhl.com has, Denneny scored 19 goals in 41 playoff games. So he only scored 3 goals in 16 pre-consolidation Cup Final games.

In the dynasty Cup-winning seasons of 1920, 1921, and 1923, Ottawa leading playoff scorers were as follows:

Nighbor: 8 goals, 15 pts
Darragh: 11 goals, 13 pts
Denneny: 7 goals, 13 pts
Boucher: 9 goals, 11 pts
Broadbent: 8 goals, 11 pts

Denneny was certainly an important offensive player but not the clear offensive leader in the dynasty years.

On the strongest Ottawa team of them all, the 1919-20 club, Denneny was relegated to the bench behind Jack Darragh and George Boucher in the Cup final, and scored 0 goals in 5 games.

NHL.com - Stats

Denneny did score 4 goals against Boston in the 1927 SC Finals, including the tying goal in Game 3 (1-1 Tie) and 2 goals in the final Game 4 (3-1 W).His 1927 performance probably crystallized his reputation as a clutch scorer, as him, Nighbor and George Boucher were seen as old players who couldn't deliver anymore so it was a pleasant surprise kind of win.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Aug 28, 2006
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Denneny was the anti-Kharlamov. Good, actually great, stats at first glance, but digging deeper, he just doesn't seem to have been that important to those teams.

Anyway, can it wait until he becomes available?
 
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Michael Farkas

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Jun 28, 2006
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The underlined has to be qualified, and the bold is ... well, no.

I'm not saying Conacher was better than Bossy : Bossy was rightfully ranked ahead (that playoffs advantage is not small). But Bossy 36th to Conacher 55th is not internally coherent, at all.

Disclaimer : I had overrated Conacher in R1.

Bossy was better defensively on tape than what Conacher is portrayed as in print. Conacher seemed like a big power forward type with some hands and a powerful shot and not a whole hell of a lot else. He's just bigger Maurice Richard except only good for a fraction of the time.

Bossy was a better passer/playmaker, seems to be just about as good of a goal scorer, all while playing in a more defensive system and was elite for twice as long as Conacher...

While I am on record as having some contempt for some of Bossy's era (the early 80's), he was great on both sides of it and the eye test shows that he would have been a player in any era clearly.

Conacher was playing in the Depression Era where fly-by-night teams were folding and sprouting up...and the amount of talent in the league didn't seem terribly noteworthy...

[At this point in the message, I took an hour long pause to research this further...here are the results, without intention to frame them in a biased way]

First, I took a look if Conacher's "outlier" goal seasons are a product of him kicking a sub-NHL team while they were down/out...

CC (31 g): 4+1=5 in 2 vs. Phi
4+1=5 in 3 vs Ott in 1931

Bill Cook (30 g): 2+4=6 vs Ott, 4+2=6 vs Phi

8 goals to 6 against teams that wouldn't play in the NHL the following season. Not dramatic enough to note.

CC (32 g): 4+4=8 in 4 games vs Ott in 1934
Barry (27 g): 2+0=2 in 5 games vs Ott in 1934

2 goals isn't terribly significant, the 6 points is...but Conacher wins the Art Ross over a linemate, so it's all a wash anyhow.

CC (36 g): 5+3=8 in 5 games vs. St. Louis in 1935
Dillon (25 g): 4+1=5 in 5 games vs. StL

Cecil Dillon did just as much damage to the Eagles as Conacher did. Conacher crushed Syd Howe by 10 points for the Art Ross, and I'm sure Howe scored against the Eagles too in his travels...

Conclusion: Conacher wasn't helped by any huge degree over any other player in pummeling have-nots in the 30s...

Competition for goals...competition in net...competition on defense...

1931: 34 year old Bill Cook (won AST over him), Morenz, 2nd year Ebbie Goodfellow, Nels Stewart, Cooney Weiland

Going against: Gardiner, Thompson and Worters in net. Shore, S.Mantha, C.Johnson on defense (he had King Clancy).

1932: 35 year old Bill Cook (won AST over him), linemate Busher Jackson as a 21 year old, Dave Trottier, Morenz

Going against: Gardiner, Thompson, Worters in net. Shore, S.Mantha, C.Johnson on defense (he had King Clancy).

1933: Didn't finish high in goals...not that interested.

1934: Marty Barry, Nels Stewart, late-career Joliat, John Sorrell.

Going against: Gardiner, Thompson, Worters in net. Shore, L.Conacher, E.Seibert on defense (he had King Clancy).

1935: Cecil Dillon, Dit Clapper in a winger season I guess, Syd Howe, linemate Busher Jackson

Going against: Chabot, Thompson, Connell in net. Shore, Seibert, Coulter, Wentworth on defense.

1936: Bill Thoms, Marty Barry, 2nd year Sweeney Schriner, 33 year old Hooley Smith

Going against: Thompson, Cude, Karakas in net. Shore, Coulter, Seibert, Siebert on defense.

It starts to peter out towards the end, but it's stronger on both sides than I initially gave it credit for...both his competition and his opponents. '35 and '36 leave plenty to be desired though.

Bossy is fighting for Rocket Richards with...

Lafleur, Shutt, L.McDonald, Trottier.
Dionne, Lafleur, G.Chouinard, Trottier.
Gare, Simmer, Stoughton, Dionne, Gretzky.
Dionne, Simmer, Gretzky, Kehoe.
Gretzky, Maruk, Ciccarelli, Vaive.
Gretzky, L.McDonald, Goulet, Dionne.
Gretzky, Kurri, Goulet, Ogrodnick.
Kurri, Kerr, Anderson, Goulet.

He's going against various degrees of nonsense in net during this time...

Beezer, Froese, Lindbergh, teenage Barrasso, Riggin, Peeters, Melanson, Smith, Fuhr, Liut, Lessard, Tony O, D.Edwards, Dryden, Resch.

The defense he faces is much stronger though (we know those names).

Overall conclusion: There is a flooding expansion in Bossy's prime, which probably cancels pretty well with the coming-and-going of teams in Conacher's prime. Conacher faced better goaltending probably, but weaker defense. I think Bossy's competition for goals is a little better, but not by the margin I thought it would be.

So, I give the edge to Bossy as a player, I give a small edge to him on era, I give a huge edge to him on being elite for about twice as long, and Bossy is a premier playoff player for all time. It still amounts to a pretty sizable advantage to Bossy for me...I also overplayed it in my hypothesis and probably underrated Conacher in both by round 1 list and my subsequent ballot. Though, I don't believe that I affected him in terms of placement, ultimately.
 

Canadiens1958

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Bossy was better defensively on tape than what Conacher is portrayed as in print. Conacher seemed like a big power forward type with some hands and a powerful shot and not a whole hell of a lot else. He's just bigger Maurice Richard except only good for a fraction of the time.

Bossy was a better passer/playmaker, seems to be just about as good of a goal scorer, all while playing in a more defensive system and was elite for twice as long as Conacher...

While I am on record as having some contempt for some of Bossy's era (the early 80's), he was great on both sides of it and the eye test shows that he would have been a player in any era clearly.

Conacher was playing in the Depression Era where fly-by-night teams were folding and sprouting up...and the amount of talent in the league didn't seem terribly noteworthy...

[At this point in the message, I took an hour long pause to research this further...here are the results, without intention to frame them in a biased way]

First, I took a look if Conacher's "outlier" goal seasons are a product of him kicking a sub-NHL team while they were down/out...

CC (31 g): 4+1=5 in 2 vs. Phi
4+1=5 in 3 vs Ott in 1931

Bill Cook (30 g): 2+4=6 vs Ott, 4+2=6 vs Phi

8 goals to 6 against teams that wouldn't play in the NHL the following season. Not dramatic enough to note.

CC (32 g): 4+4=8 in 4 games vs Ott in 1934
Barry (27 g): 2+0=2 in 5 games vs Ott in 1934

2 goals isn't terribly significant, the 6 points is...but Conacher wins the Art Ross over a linemate, so it's all a wash anyhow.

CC (36 g): 5+3=8 in 5 games vs. St. Louis in 1935
Dillon (25 g): 4+1=5 in 5 games vs. StL

Cecil Dillon did just as much damage to the Eagles as Conacher did. Conacher crushed Syd Howe by 10 points for the Art Ross, and I'm sure Howe scored against the Eagles too in his travels...

Conclusion: Conacher wasn't helped by any huge degree over any other player in pummeling have-nots in the 30s...

Competition for goals...competition in net...competition on defense...

1931: 34 year old Bill Cook (won AST over him), Morenz, 2nd year Ebbie Goodfellow, Nels Stewart, Cooney Weiland

Going against: Gardiner, Thompson and Worters in net. Shore, S.Mantha, C.Johnson on defense (he had King Clancy).

1932: 35 year old Bill Cook (won AST over him), linemate Busher Jackson as a 21 year old, Dave Trottier, Morenz

Going against: Gardiner, Thompson, Worters in net. Shore, S.Mantha, C.Johnson on defense (he had King Clancy).

1933: Didn't finish high in goals...not that interested.

1934: Marty Barry, Nels Stewart, late-career Joliat, John Sorrell.

Going against: Gardiner, Thompson, Worters in net. Shore, L.Conacher, E.Seibert on defense (he had King Clancy).

1935: Cecil Dillon, Dit Clapper in a winger season I guess, Syd Howe, linemate Busher Jackson

Going against: Chabot, Thompson, Connell in net. Shore, Seibert, Coulter, Wentworth on defense.

1936: Bill Thoms, Marty Barry, 2nd year Sweeney Schriner, 33 year old Hooley Smith

Going against: Thompson, Cude, Karakas in net. Shore, Coulter, Seibert, Siebert on defense.

It starts to peter out towards the end, but it's stronger on both sides than I initially gave it credit for...both his competition and his opponents. '35 and '36 leave plenty to be desired though.

Bossy is fighting for Rocket Richards with...

Lafleur, Shutt, L.McDonald, Trottier.
Dionne, Lafleur, G.Chouinard, Trottier.
Gare, Simmer, Stoughton, Dionne, Gretzky.
Dionne, Simmer, Gretzky, Kehoe.
Gretzky, Maruk, Ciccarelli, Vaive.
Gretzky, L.McDonald, Goulet, Dionne.
Gretzky, Kurri, Goulet, Ogrodnick.
Kurri, Kerr, Anderson, Goulet.

He's going against various degrees of nonsense in net during this time...

Beezer, Froese, Lindbergh, teenage Barrasso, Riggin, Peeters, Melanson, Smith, Fuhr, Liut, Lessard, Tony O, D.Edwards, Dryden, Resch.

The defense he faces is much stronger though (we know those names).

Overall conclusion: There is a flooding expansion in Bossy's prime, which probably cancels pretty well with the coming-and-going of teams in Conacher's prime. Conacher faced better goaltending probably, but weaker defense. I think Bossy's competition for goals is a little better, but not by the margin I thought it would be.

So, I give the edge to Bossy as a player, I give a small edge to him on era, I give a huge edge to him on being elite for about twice as long, and Bossy is a premier playoff player for all time. It still amounts to a pretty sizable advantage to Bossy for me...I also overplayed it in my hypothesis and probably underrated Conacher in both by round 1 list and my subsequent ballot. Though, I don't believe that I affected him in terms of placement, ultimately.

For another day, but the 1930s NHL features similarities to the early 1980s NHL in terms of goalies - none trained for the forward pass game in their youth.

Also a number of skaters jumped directly to the NHL from Canadian and American universities.
 

bobholly39

Registered User
Mar 10, 2013
22,078
14,585
First time not voting on my end....been a bit of a crazy week, work, hospital, etc. Figured it wouldn't be fair for me to vote if i didn't get to keep up with everything.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
22,246
10,125
For another day, but the 1930s NHL features similarities to the early 1980s NHL in terms of goalies - none trained for the forward pass game in their youth.

Also a number of skaters jumped directly to the NHL from Canadian and American universities.

How many players jumped directly from Canadian universities?

Sure there were some from American ones who jumped directly but the majority spent some time not in the NHL developing after their draft years right?
 

BraveCanadian

Registered User
Jun 30, 2010
14,516
3,352
Denneny played through the same era as Frank Nighbor. The game was different back then and Nighbor provided a lot of defensive greatness that Denneny didn't. But Denneny scored 16 goals in 25 PO games in an era that was very low-scoring. Nighbor had 4 goals in 20 games.

RS Denneny was 2,4,2,3,3,1,3,4,8 in goalscoring, 1,5,4,3,3,2 in assists and 2,4,2,2,2,1,3,2 in points during the same era while Nighbor was 3,3,5,10 in goals and 6,1,1,2,8,7 in assists. Points overall was: 10,2,3,5,9,6.

I mean, he must've been otherworldly awful at anything but scoring points to off-set that? Did he just stand at the blue-line?

The Nighbor legend is unassailable here now. By all accounts, he was tremendous away from the puck, though.
 

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