Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 9
- Thread starter quoipourquoi
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Not too sure about that. Seems to me its more of a case of historic revisionism due to Canadiens and especially Leafs getting a big boost by the current media which creates the illusion that they were a lot better than during their time. Case in point: look at the NHL top 100 list and how many pre1950s players played for American teams vs Canadians (one vs like 10).
quoipourquoi
Goaltender
Per the decision of the project administrators, Steve Yzerman is removed from the pool. Full disclosure, he was sitting in the 5-spot when I extended the deadline to get more ballots anyway.
Brad Park- looks pretty good this round, might be in the top 5, although I wonder how he will fare against Clancy.
Charlie Conacher- seems a little too early for Lafleur light. Basically has a great 6 year prime, 3rd year stands out in a bad way though, and not much else. Not a great playoff performer but 30's guys never look good in this metric.
Chris Chelios- a lock for first this round right?
Frank Boucher-I think he is a bit overrated and he will be behind Yzerman this round one would think.
Henri Richard- a bit early for him IMO, several centers not up yet have extremely strong cases in being better than him, although I'll try really hard not to think about it. Either way 2 centers ahead of him this round.
Ken Dryden- honestly not sure if he or Tretiak should be the top goalie in this round, both have their case and I'm pretty sure at least one them should be in the top 5
King Clancy- it will be very interesting to see how he stacks up to the other 3 Dmen in this round, some might have him 1st and others 4th. I think he has a case for 2nd after Chelios.
Paul Coffey- Some will love him for his high octane offense others will drop him down to his lousy defense. I think he has a case for 2nd among Dmen and maybe top 5 but clearly behind Chelios.
Pierre Pilot-very good prime but how strong was the competition for Norris 60-67?
Also he has zero Norris votes before the arrival of Mikita and Hull when he was 28.
Steve Yzerman- Has an unmatched 7 year prime for this round from 88-94 and at least a handfull of very good to excellent ones. Top 3 lock on this ballot for me.
Syl Apps- very consistent and well rounded resume but maybe lacks that one signature wow type of season. I think he has a case for being the 2nd center after Yzerman this round but soem will like Boucher more.
Valeri Kharamov-He is a legend, much like in the fashion of Maurice Richard, other claim he is more style over substance, https://thehockeywriters.com/valeri-kharlamov-the-most-overrated-player-in-history/ .
I think that he might be almost as polarizing as Coffey is. I can see the case for him in the top 2 as TDMM stated upthread and I can see him being middle of the pack as well.
Vladislav Tretiak-I think it's a coinflip between him and Dryden and at least one probably deserves a spot in the top 5.
I think that there will be one each of center, Dman, winger and goalie in the top 5 what position will the 5th guy be.
It's really open but there won't be 2 wingers.
Charlie Conacher- seems a little too early for Lafleur light. Basically has a great 6 year prime, 3rd year stands out in a bad way though, and not much else. Not a great playoff performer but 30's guys never look good in this metric.
Chris Chelios- a lock for first this round right?
Frank Boucher-I think he is a bit overrated and he will be behind Yzerman this round one would think.
Henri Richard- a bit early for him IMO, several centers not up yet have extremely strong cases in being better than him, although I'll try really hard not to think about it. Either way 2 centers ahead of him this round.
Ken Dryden- honestly not sure if he or Tretiak should be the top goalie in this round, both have their case and I'm pretty sure at least one them should be in the top 5
King Clancy- it will be very interesting to see how he stacks up to the other 3 Dmen in this round, some might have him 1st and others 4th. I think he has a case for 2nd after Chelios.
Paul Coffey- Some will love him for his high octane offense others will drop him down to his lousy defense. I think he has a case for 2nd among Dmen and maybe top 5 but clearly behind Chelios.
Pierre Pilot-very good prime but how strong was the competition for Norris 60-67?
Also he has zero Norris votes before the arrival of Mikita and Hull when he was 28.
Steve Yzerman- Has an unmatched 7 year prime for this round from 88-94 and at least a handfull of very good to excellent ones. Top 3 lock on this ballot for me.
Syl Apps- very consistent and well rounded resume but maybe lacks that one signature wow type of season. I think he has a case for being the 2nd center after Yzerman this round but soem will like Boucher more.
Valeri Kharamov-He is a legend, much like in the fashion of Maurice Richard, other claim he is more style over substance, https://thehockeywriters.com/valeri-kharlamov-the-most-overrated-player-in-history/ .
I think that he might be almost as polarizing as Coffey is. I can see the case for him in the top 2 as TDMM stated upthread and I can see him being middle of the pack as well.
Vladislav Tretiak-I think it's a coinflip between him and Dryden and at least one probably deserves a spot in the top 5.
I think that there will be one each of center, Dman, winger and goalie in the top 5 what position will the 5th guy be.
It's really open but there won't be 2 wingers.
Kyle McMahon
Registered User
- May 10, 2006
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Looking forward to some fresh discussion this week.
Newcomers Boucher and Richard are up at the top of my ballot to kick things off. Two of the all-time great playoff performers in history.
Newcomers Boucher and Richard are up at the top of my ballot to kick things off. Two of the all-time great playoff performers in history.
This statement isn't really backed up by the stats and there are plenty of better playoff performers who are yet up for voting, who also have great regular seasons.
Hopefully we will be able to debate them next round.
I'm going to take a drink as this is the second time I have mentioned guys not available, something I'm loathe to do.
I had a quick look at the 40 top playoff performers for reference and found it amazing that neither Chelios or Yzerman were on the list yet Richard is 19th and Boucher 30th?
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MXD
Original #4
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... It should probably be pointed out that your claim isn't backed by facts either.
I'm not going to name them here but off the top of my head there are 3 guys that really stand out to the above.
Chelios and Yzerman have extremely strong playoff cases to Frank and Henri as well.
Hopefully they are added next round and we can have the debate. Eelder has already named one either in this thread or another one.
MXD
Original #4
- Oct 27, 2005
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First of all, Steve Yzerman isn't available this round. He was declared to have been voted in last round
Second... Your initial point reads like Richard and Boucher aren't impressive playoff performers, and that's something that requires some demonstration to the contrary before I can give it any weight because it goes against not only my perception of these players (... especially in the case of Boucher) but also against a somewhat well-established consensus.
... And no "but X player was good too, even possibly better" kind of cop out.
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Good to see Tretiak and Kharlamov coming up for discussion together at the same time. Kharlamov was voted ahead of Tretiak at every major occasion so far (2008 and 2009 lists, also 2016 non-NHL Europeans list) and I ended up in the “pro-Kharlamov” camp during the 2016 list too. But is there a possibility to reverse this order?
Argument in favour of Tretiak is very simple, that is clearly better ‘Soviet player of the year’ voting results:
Kharlamov - 1st (1973), 2nd (1972), 2nd (1975), 2nd (1976), 3rd (1979), 4th (1969), 4th (1971), 5th (1970), 5th (1974), 6th (1980), 7th (1978), 8th (1977)
Tretiak - 1st (1974), 1st (1975), 1st (1976), 1st (1981), 1st (1983), 2nd (1978), 2nd (1984), 3rd (1982), 4th (1973), 4th (1977), 5th (1971), 5th (1979), 6th (1972), 8th (1980)
Obviously the SPOTY voting is not end-all-be-all but it´s the best simple instrument for cross-positional comparisons of Soviet players. Now argument against taking these voting results at face value is that the Soviet goalies in general did remarkably well even after some questionable performances on international scene at the end of the season. Couple examples:
Viktor Konovalenko – 3rd in SPOTY 1968 despite (most likely) receiving 0 votes at OG 1968 All-star team voting and playing particularly poorly vs. CSSR (4:5 loss)
Viktor Zinger – 2nd in SPOTY 1969 despite (again most likely) receiving 0 votes at WHC 1969 All-star team voting and recording quite poor SV% (0.9050 in 10 games pretty low for Soviet standards at the time)
Evgeni Belosheikin – 2nd in SPOTY 1987 despite (again most likely) receiving very low amount of WHC 1987 All-star team votes if he received any votes at all (we only know that Hasek and Lindmark more or less cleaned up AST ballots at goalie position at that championship). Belosheikin´s performance was probably solid (0.9227 in 10 games) and he did earn some voting support at subsequent Izvestia award for the best European player (5th overall) but still… 2nd best Soviet of the season and ahead of Makarov, Fetisov, Larionov and Kasatonov? Looks off.
Arturs Irbe – 5th in SPOTY 1988 as a 20 year-old who didn´t play a single minute at either CC 1987 or OG 1988?
Only votes between 1968 to 1990, when no goalie at all was proclaimed as one of the top 5 USSR players, happened in 1972 (Tretiak 6th), 1980 (Myshkin 7th, Tretiak 8th) and 1986 (Belosheikin 6th). Which means that if you were a Soviet starter you´d have almost guaranteed top 5 SPOTY finish.
I´d say that Tretiak´s SPOTY voting finishes indeed can´t be taken entirely at face value but by what amount should a voter mentally adjust his voting record downwards fairly? I´m afraid one would really need to strike Tretiak´s finishes heavily in order to have Kharlamov confidently ahead on the upcoming ballot.
Argument in favour of Tretiak is very simple, that is clearly better ‘Soviet player of the year’ voting results:
Kharlamov - 1st (1973), 2nd (1972), 2nd (1975), 2nd (1976), 3rd (1979), 4th (1969), 4th (1971), 5th (1970), 5th (1974), 6th (1980), 7th (1978), 8th (1977)
Tretiak - 1st (1974), 1st (1975), 1st (1976), 1st (1981), 1st (1983), 2nd (1978), 2nd (1984), 3rd (1982), 4th (1973), 4th (1977), 5th (1971), 5th (1979), 6th (1972), 8th (1980)
Obviously the SPOTY voting is not end-all-be-all but it´s the best simple instrument for cross-positional comparisons of Soviet players. Now argument against taking these voting results at face value is that the Soviet goalies in general did remarkably well even after some questionable performances on international scene at the end of the season. Couple examples:
Viktor Konovalenko – 3rd in SPOTY 1968 despite (most likely) receiving 0 votes at OG 1968 All-star team voting and playing particularly poorly vs. CSSR (4:5 loss)
Viktor Zinger – 2nd in SPOTY 1969 despite (again most likely) receiving 0 votes at WHC 1969 All-star team voting and recording quite poor SV% (0.9050 in 10 games pretty low for Soviet standards at the time)
Evgeni Belosheikin – 2nd in SPOTY 1987 despite (again most likely) receiving very low amount of WHC 1987 All-star team votes if he received any votes at all (we only know that Hasek and Lindmark more or less cleaned up AST ballots at goalie position at that championship). Belosheikin´s performance was probably solid (0.9227 in 10 games) and he did earn some voting support at subsequent Izvestia award for the best European player (5th overall) but still… 2nd best Soviet of the season and ahead of Makarov, Fetisov, Larionov and Kasatonov? Looks off.
Arturs Irbe – 5th in SPOTY 1988 as a 20 year-old who didn´t play a single minute at either CC 1987 or OG 1988?
Only votes between 1968 to 1990, when no goalie at all was proclaimed as one of the top 5 USSR players, happened in 1972 (Tretiak 6th), 1980 (Myshkin 7th, Tretiak 8th) and 1986 (Belosheikin 6th). Which means that if you were a Soviet starter you´d have almost guaranteed top 5 SPOTY finish.
I´d say that Tretiak´s SPOTY voting finishes indeed can´t be taken entirely at face value but by what amount should a voter mentally adjust his voting record downwards fairly? I´m afraid one would really need to strike Tretiak´s finishes heavily in order to have Kharlamov confidently ahead on the upcoming ballot.
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Kyle McMahon
Registered User
- May 10, 2006
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I'll present the case this week for Boucher. An underappreciated all time great IMO.
Almost 3 months ago, I finally compiled and posted all the goalie stats from major international tournaments from 1964 to 1990. How did Tretiak fare statistically over the course of his career? I´ll let you be the judge..
Here are the cumulative stats for most significant Soviet, Czechoslovak, Swedish and Canadian goalies on international level before the fall of Iron Curtain. I´m posting this for more of a completeness sake, I wouldn´t base my evaluation of goalies on these overall career statistics - strength and competitiveness of various national teams and scoring levels were vastly different and changing over time...
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MXD
Original #4
- Oct 27, 2005
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I'll get this out right away : Vladislav Tretiak takes the place of Terry Sawchuk in the "I don't even care what you guys are throwing out to prop his case and I totally assume that I'm lower on him than most here, despite being higher on goalies than everyone"
(The difference is, I could see a point where I would rank Sawchuk during his period of availability)
(The difference is, I could see a point where I would rank Sawchuk during his period of availability)
ted2019
History of Hockey
ChiTownPhilly
Not Too Soft
Hockey Prodigy- A Sample Case
We had the opportunity to discuss Hockey Prodigies early on. Vote 1, in fact. Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux. We are more likely than not going to have the opportunity to discuss another one much later [Lindros]. We have the chance to discuss one worthy of the appelation this Round.
The first year that this kid played professionally, he suited up for three games. Somewhere along the way, he must have made an impression, for he became the regular starter for his team next year- and made an immediate difference, as his team, which fell short of the League Championship in his "cup-of-coffee" year, became Champions.
The kid was Vladislav Tretiak. He was 17 years old.
What did he do as an 18 year old, except for help his team win another Championship and contribute to his team's fewest goals against? Play in every league game.
All right, what about his playing age 19-20? A year of highs and lows. That year the league ran a shortened season- but his team's place at the top of the table was the same. Off to Sapporo, for the 1972 Olympics. Team undefeated, Gold Medal. [And, peripherally relevant to this round, Kharlamov was the obvious 'AINEC' best forward of the Olympic Games. This will be a recurring theme with Kharlamov- apex-peak and jaw-dropping performances on the biggest stages.] Now come the disappointments- an anticlimactic loss to Czechoslovakia at the World Championships- and the Summit Series of 1972- an event that figures to be well-enough-known by anyone participating on this Panel.
Please let that sink in for a bit. When Vladislav Tretiak was the Gold Medal Goaltender at the 1972 Olympics, he had not yet turned 20 years of age. When the starting Goaltender for the USSR in Summit Series 1972, he was about half-a-year shy of his 21st birthday.
Don't think we'll talk again about another one who did as much or more before he turned 21 than this guy.
We had the opportunity to discuss Hockey Prodigies early on. Vote 1, in fact. Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux. We are more likely than not going to have the opportunity to discuss another one much later [Lindros]. We have the chance to discuss one worthy of the appelation this Round.
The first year that this kid played professionally, he suited up for three games. Somewhere along the way, he must have made an impression, for he became the regular starter for his team next year- and made an immediate difference, as his team, which fell short of the League Championship in his "cup-of-coffee" year, became Champions.
The kid was Vladislav Tretiak. He was 17 years old.
What did he do as an 18 year old, except for help his team win another Championship and contribute to his team's fewest goals against? Play in every league game.
All right, what about his playing age 19-20? A year of highs and lows. That year the league ran a shortened season- but his team's place at the top of the table was the same. Off to Sapporo, for the 1972 Olympics. Team undefeated, Gold Medal. [And, peripherally relevant to this round, Kharlamov was the obvious 'AINEC' best forward of the Olympic Games. This will be a recurring theme with Kharlamov- apex-peak and jaw-dropping performances on the biggest stages.] Now come the disappointments- an anticlimactic loss to Czechoslovakia at the World Championships- and the Summit Series of 1972- an event that figures to be well-enough-known by anyone participating on this Panel.
Please let that sink in for a bit. When Vladislav Tretiak was the Gold Medal Goaltender at the 1972 Olympics, he had not yet turned 20 years of age. When the starting Goaltender for the USSR in Summit Series 1972, he was about half-a-year shy of his 21st birthday.
Don't think we'll talk again about another one who did as much or more before he turned 21 than this guy.
Hockey Outsider
Registered User
- Jan 16, 2005
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Pilote - underrated offensive defenseman
As @kruezer suggested, I tried doing a quick-and-dirty seven year VsX just for defensemen. I'm not yet confident enough in the results to present them here, but I will say this - Pilote looks exceptional. In fact, right now the numbers have him in 3rd place (behind Coffey who's comfortably in 2nd, and very narrowly ahead of Red Kelly in 4th). But part of that is due to him beating up on weaker competition. Here's a quick summary:
(In case it isn't clear as to why Pilote ranks much higher than Park under this method, when he was far behind in the original VsX table - Park's offense looks better relative to the league as a whole, because defensemen as a whole were more involved in the offense during his era. But Pilote's offense was much more impressive than Park's, relative to other defensemen of his era).
As @kruezer suggested, I tried doing a quick-and-dirty seven year VsX just for defensemen. I'm not yet confident enough in the results to present them here, but I will say this - Pilote looks exceptional. In fact, right now the numbers have him in 3rd place (behind Coffey who's comfortably in 2nd, and very narrowly ahead of Red Kelly in 4th). But part of that is due to him beating up on weaker competition. Here's a quick summary:
- 1958 - 5th in defenseman scoring (but only one point out of 3rd place - which is a tie between Red Kelly, who missed nine games, and Allan Stanley)
- 1959 - 3rd in defenseman scoring (decisively behind Bill Gadsby, but just two points behind Tom Johnson in 3rd, and well ahead of Marcel Pronvost in 4th)
- 1960 - decisively leads defensemen in scoring (45 points; three Hall of Fame defensemen - Stanley, Horton and Gadsby - are closely bunched together with 33, 32 and 31 points respectively)
- 1961 - tied for 2nd in scoring (slightly behind Harvey in 1st; tied with Gadsby in 2nd)
- 1962 - 2nd in scoring behind Jean-Guy Talbot (leading Horton, Gadsby, Stanley and Harvey after that)
- 1963 - missed 11 games to injury (still finishes 4th in scoring, only two points out of second)
- 1964 - runs away with the scoring race 53 to 36. But this is a weaker year - Howell, Doug Barkley and Laperriere are the top competition.
- 1965 - obliterates the scoring race 59 to 35. Only Orr has ever had larger margins of victory. But again it's a weaker field - Ted Green, Kent Douglas and Tim Horton.
- 1966 - a weird year where most of the top defensemen miss time. Pilote manages to lead defensemen in scoring despite missing 19 games - he narrowly beat JC Tremblay who missed 11 games, Pat Stapleon who missed 15, a healthy Harry Howell (how's that for alliteration?), and Jacques Laperriere who missed 13 games.
- 1967 - another decisive victory (over a rookie Orr, then Howell and Gary Bergman).
- 1968 - 6th in scoring (but only six points out of second place), then downhill from there.
(In case it isn't clear as to why Pilote ranks much higher than Park under this method, when he was far behind in the original VsX table - Park's offense looks better relative to the league as a whole, because defensemen as a whole were more involved in the offense during his era. But Pilote's offense was much more impressive than Park's, relative to other defensemen of his era).
Yes I see that the Yzerman thing was settled, for some reason I thought Lalonde was getting in and he was getting carried over but I obviously confused that with Chelios.
(Hey it's New Years Day, who isn't rusty today)
As for Richard and Boucher, I was responding to this statement
Two of the all-time great playoff performers in history.
And my response is that statement wasn't really backed up by the stats, which I looked at again before I posted and also looked at the top 40 playoff players of all time in the all time lists here.
I think there are 2 or 3 centers and definitely 1 dman with as good or better playoff resumes, and really great regular seasons ones as well BTW, that are at least as good or better.
As impressive as you think Frank and Henri might be in the playoffs, I think at least 2 of the 4 guys I'm thinking about are better in that regard.
Those players aren't available this round so I really don't want to discuss them when they come up but I'm looking forward to hearing why Frank and Henri are considered 2 of the all time greats in the playoffs.
Chelios is available this round so I will compare him to them playoff wise later on.
MXD
Original #4
- Oct 27, 2005
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To this, I'll add the following :
Pierre Pilote finished 8th in league-wide scoring in 64-65. It was, unless I missed something, only the third time since the consolidation (I meant to say "forward pass", but it went even further) that a D-Men would finish amongst the Top-10 for scoring, the others to do so being Red Kelly in 1950-51 and Bill Gadsby in 1955-56.
So, while it does make sense to somewhat "asterisk" Pilote's 64-65 as far as D-Men VsX is concerned, it shouldn't be implied that he's looking good because of his weak competition (offensively, at least).
MXD
Original #4
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Nick Hansen
Registered User
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What's the drawback on Joe Malone? Granted I can't really judge his years in the NHA, but he seems like an all-time scorer.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Amazing how close Tretiak, Martin, Konovalenko and Holecek are over the long run.
.925, .923, .923, .922.
.925, .923, .923, .922.
Good for you but I'm not going to discuss 3 or 4 guys not available for this thread but it doesn't take Rocket Science to figure out who these 4 guys are.
I looked at the participants in that project, you were one of them, 3 of the 4 guys are on that list with one being above both Boucher and Richard.
When they are available I'll bring up their cases, right now I'm working on Chelios as a playoff performer, which has 3 phases, much like his regular season resume.
Good post and I'll add that Pilote's offense takes a big jump at age 26 when Hull joins the Black Hawks and also increases in his age 30-35 seasons as Mikita enters in his peak years as well.
I would be hesitant to put him on the same range as Potvin and perhaps Lidstrom and Harvey but Potvin is clearly ahead of those mentioned above.
It's been mentioned before that the Black Hawks ran 3 lines sometimes in the 60's and couldn't compete with the depth and 4 line rolling of Montreal and Toronto, was something happening on the back end with Pilote as well?
Just looking at some seasons and the Dmen and their stats and SOG there seems like they played the Dmen pretty evenly for guys 1-5 and 1-6 not a huge spread in SOG
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