Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 8

Michael Farkas

Grace Personified
Jun 28, 2006
13,352
7,834
NYC
www.HockeyProspect.com
It's not about a looseness, it's about not trying to suck out a handful, or even dozens of games in over a thousand...unless you're really going to challenge the notion as a whole against what was seen, it serves little purpose...even if you're right, whatever your challenge is on the subject...
 

TheEye

Registered User
Nov 4, 2018
191
132
It's not about a looseness, it's about not trying to suck out a handful, or even dozens of games in over a thousand...unless you're really going to challenge the notion as a whole against what was seen, it serves little purpose...even if you're right, whatever your challenge is on the subject...

There is no challenge on the subject. You obviously implied that Gretzky's point total dipped below 150 in 1987-88 for the first time since he was a rookie as a consequence of Coffey's departure. That is factually incorrect. His point total dipped below 150 (149) because he only played 64 games that season due to a knee injury. Coffey's departure shows no correlation to Gretzky's point production (i.e. ppg) in 1987-88. That is a fact.

For what it's worth, I'm absolutely not a Coffey detractor but I can certainly understand why he has them. Star players can be a challenge to coach, especially one as unorthodox as him.
 
  • Like
Reactions: seventieslord

sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
11,845
6,290
We've been spoiled by Frank Nighbor and Cyclone Taylor- really, we have. They're two examples where we can come away with the impression that one can play strong, effective, and clean- even in the Pre-Consolidation Era. It takes a focused look into the careers of the likes of Newsy Lalonde, as well as other players of his era, including one who may come up for discussion relatively soon, to recognize that Nighbor and Taylor were the decided exception, not the rule.

Jack Walker's another high profile clean player with a decidedly low amount of PIMs.
 

ChiTownPhilly

Not Too Soft
Feb 23, 2010
2,095
1,381
AnyWorld/I'mWelcomeTo
Newsy Lalonde- Beyond the Clichés- Intermezzo

As a follower of the BlackHawks, I've had a chance to look at the "First-to-Worst" phenomenon up close. [2016-17 Best Record in Conference, 2017-18 Worst Record in Division.] Well, how about (almost) "First-to-Worst-to-First?" It happened with the 1913-14, 1914-15, 1915-16 Canadiens.

In the first campaign, Montreal and Toronto finished with the same record, jointly atop the NHA. It's to be noted that Lalonde missed about a third of the season- and I don't think it's too controversial to say that of there had been just a little more of his presence, there wouldn't have even been a tie atop the standings. [As it stood, there was a two-game playoff for the NHA Championship, which the Torontos won on goal-differential.*]

The next year, the Canadiens sunk all the way down to last place- trailing all in goals scored.

Then, in 1915-16, Montreal was back on top of the NHA, leading all in goals scored, repulsing all with fewest goals against, and cementing their status further by winning the second Cup awarded post-Challenge-Era. The difference? The year before, Newsy Lalonde held out. His playing age would have been 27. Upon returning to the Canadiens, he Player-Coached them to the top of the Known Hockey World.

If we were impressed with the "With-or-Without-You" analysis of Frank Nighbor, what's there to say about this illustration of value-to-team?!

*
Montreal allowed six goals in the opening game. Quite without trying, I seem to keep finding these Tony Esposito-esque blots on the résumé of (the overrated) Georges Vezina. We'll pick this up later, I guess.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BenchBrawl

sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
11,845
6,290
Didn’t Pitre outscore Lalonde both in the 1916 and the 1917 (when they got crushed) SCFs? And Lalonde being coach in 1916 is nice, but we're only supposed to judge what he did as a player here.
 

ChiTownPhilly

Not Too Soft
Feb 23, 2010
2,095
1,381
AnyWorld/I'mWelcomeTo
Didn’t Pitre outscore Lalonde both in the 1916 and the 1917 (when they got crushed) SCFs?
S'pose the thing one can say with certainty is that he "out-goaled" him. I'm speculating that we know enough about record-keeping from 100+ years ago to recognize that it's not literally true that 75+% of the goals were unassisted, right(?!)
And Lalonde being coach in 1916 is nice, but we're only supposed to judge what he did as a player here.
Can't we at least relent to acknowledgement of the possibility that it speaks to leadership(??)
 

sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
11,845
6,290
Can't we at least relent to acknowledgement of the possibility that it speaks to leadership(??)

The possibility? I guess, but so can someone coaching the local amateur tennis girls. The leadership thing is vague enough for captains, etc.. Are we going to give plus to a player because he was an alternate captain too?
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,134
6,429
Lindsay captained half of the Wings dynasty and arguably was THE leader early on too!
 

quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
4,126
Hockeytown, MI
Am I counting wrong or did Brad Park miss 10, 16, 24, and 26 games in four of his seven Norris nominations? I mean, he still has 1972, 1974, and 1978... but still.
 

ChiTownPhilly

Not Too Soft
Feb 23, 2010
2,095
1,381
AnyWorld/I'mWelcomeTo
Public Service Reminder:
The actual voting period will open up on Friday, December 21st at midnight and continue throughout the holidays until Sunday, December 30th at noon. Eastern time zone. I will release the results of the vote on Sunday, December 30th.
This is something I nearly overlooked, myself. The polls close mid-day tomorrow. If we get to the polling station on-time, the chances increase for us to have that fresh set of nominees posted by night-time, Sunday.

I'll probably wait 'til towards the end of the day Saturday before turning in MY ballot. Reviewing this set of candidates turned out to be more interesting than I thought it would be at first blush. Top two and bottom two were decided pretty quickly. Shortly afterwards, a third separated from the pack and joined the other two up at the top. The remaining five swirled around in various places in a manner that I'm still not entirely sure I've satisfactorily worked out.

Needless to say, I can see this panning out in a lot of different ways. If my top two move on (somewhere, anywhere in the upper half) and my bottom two stay back, the remaining results will be within my comfort-zone- although if my #3 gets held back, then that will have me slightly off-feed.
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,134
6,429
Am I counting wrong or did Brad Park miss 10, 16, 24, and 26 games in four of his seven Norris nominations? I mean, he still has 1972, 1974, and 1978... but still.
Orr played only 46 of 74 games and was an ABSURDLY low 11th in team scoring, yet won his first Norris in 1968.

Don't underestimate the power of media hype/sensationalism.

The storyline of Park as best non-Orr dman was pimped in the 70's big time.

Remember: There were no video machines, no cable TV and of course no Internet. Newspapers drove sports news, and the 6 o'clock evening news highlight package.
 

Michael Farkas

Grace Personified
Jun 28, 2006
13,352
7,834
NYC
www.HockeyProspect.com
Oh snap. Thanks for the heads up on the noon time. Given what's in store for me tonight, there's a 0% chance I am up at noon ET tomorrow and I live in ET!

Let me iron out my ballot as best I can now-ish...this last two weeks has been a bear...
 

Michael Farkas

Grace Personified
Jun 28, 2006
13,352
7,834
NYC
www.HockeyProspect.com
Still had/having some trouble separating Robinson/Chelios/Park...they all played a different game too. I think I like Park a lot more than most because of his outlet pass ability...

Gained appreciation for Mike Bossy (which I reflected on my ballot last time), he's a lot closer to Trottier than I think we're giving credit for...he wasn't just some one-way, goal-scoring winger pretty boy...he was in it too. Gained some appreciation for Ted Lindsay after watching some more of him...I think I associated him too closely with Richard, but there's more nuance to his game than Richard had. He's much less talented and scored a lot of goals from standing in front of the net, so it's tough to justify. I can't figure out how to place him relative to Lalonde and flipped them multiple times this week...

The two goalies still don't do very much for me...

Voted. Though, if I had another week, my ballot might look considerably different...then again, maybe not...this was a tough one...
 
  • Like
Reactions: quoipourquoi

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
30,844
13,628
Sorry for my low level of participation, the last few weeks have been terrible here.

Will vote shortly.

Edit: Voted
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: quoipourquoi

Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
29,206
17,561
Connecticut
Orr played only 46 of 74 games and was an ABSURDLY low 11th in team scoring, yet won his first Norris in 1968.

Don't underestimate the power of media hype/sensationalism.

The storyline of Park as best non-Orr dman was pimped in the 70's big time.

Remember: There were no video machines, no cable TV and of course no Internet. Newspapers drove sports news, and the 6 o'clock evening news highlight package.

Orr had 11 goals, no other defenseman in the league was close. He was also +28 in only 46 games.

It wasn't hype. He was just better than everyone else.
 
  • Like
Reactions: wetcoast

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
22,247
10,126
Orr had 11 goals, no other defenseman in the league was close. He was also +28 in only 46 games.

It wasn't hype. He was just better than everyone else.

Fully agree with this.

Harry Howell won the Norris the year before, the competition at defense was pretty weak when Orr entered the league.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->