Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 8

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
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Is there any evidence, somewhere, to the effect that Sawchuk's skills (and not only his stamina) dwindled right as the curtain fell on the Red Wings dynasty? That would... Probably HELP him at this point in the grand scheme of things.

I mean, Ken Dryden could actually play great hockey and assume starting duties while manning the crease of a non-powerhouse (and there's actually pretty damning evidence to the effect that the Canadiens were good specifically BECAUSE of him in the first half of his career). He made the difference. Something Terry Sawchuk never, ever did (except negatively for a few playoffs rounds).

I'm totally open to the idea that Terry Sawchuk should not even be ranked in our final list.
 
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bobholly39

Registered User
Mar 10, 2013
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No forward has ever come remotely close to touching any of Gretzkys records (aside from Lemieux). Mcdavid Crosby Lindros Jagr all far far away.

Orr was argubaly more dominating vs defensemen than Gretzky was for forwards - yet Paul Coffey came 1 point short of his season high. He has more goals than him in a season. He also has 5 of the top 10 defensemen point scoring seasons of all time (Orr has the other 5).

I really like him in this round.

Also - both Gretzky and Lemieux had their best seasons with him. Thats gotta mean something right?
 

VMBM

And it didn't even bring me down
Sep 24, 2008
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Helsinki, Finland
Yes! Dryden vs Sawchuk. I like that. Both have incredibly strong peaks and should make for a great comparison.

Coffey? Yuck, yuck, yuck.

Brad Park isn't as big a yuck but I have a few Dmen ranked over both of them. Chelios and Robinson are 2 and a few not on the list are as well.

Missing 2 Soviets IMO.

I hope they become eligible together; Firsov certainly has a case over Kharlamov. (That's the two Soviets I have in mind anyway.)

EDIT: Well, Tretiak's there too, I guess.
 
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bobholly39

Registered User
Mar 10, 2013
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Im of the opinion that players can only add to their resume, not substract (save from being a locker room cancer, or actively scoring on their own team, which Chelios did not). Why would you punish players for playing a long time? Surely playing at a bottom pairing D level contributes more to the team than not playing at all? In the case of Chelios, his 40+ year old seasons add to his resume, but only a tiny bit as to bordering on inconsequential.

Agreed 100%. If a player does a negative it can count as a negative (Messier in Vancouver is one of those rare examples of such). But the worst you can say about Chelios in later years it's that it's a very small positive (maybe even a neutral if you're not big on longevity) - but i can't fathom how it would actually hurt him.

His play at that age was as good or better than expected - and it wasn't a negative for the team, etc.

Again, goalies and defensemen were handicapped when it came to the Hart.

That's true but it's still underwhelming. Lots of hart winners left to come - and lots of players with stronger hart records (even without actual wins) to come too.
 
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DannyGallivan

Your world frightens and confuses me
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Preliminary thoughts:

Holy defensemen batman....

I'll start by saying that IMO, only Chelios and Robinson are relevant this round among defensemen. Park was an all-rounder too, but injuries limited him a bit later on, and he doesn't have Robinson's playoffs or Chelios' insane longevity.

Dryden is an interesting comparison to Robinson....

Sawchuk, Lindsay, Bossy are my highest carryovers from last round and current favorites... But unlike last round, when I thought Brodeur, Cook, and Sakic were easy choices, this round I'm much more open.

I am shocked to be writing this... but Terry Sawchuk of all players has a shot at my #1 this round... :eek:

Ted Lindsay should really get more consideration than he has been. Great playoff performer. Such a well-rounded player. His well roundedness is why I usually vote him over Bossy (by a tiny tiny margin). Though I understand he wasn't quite Bossy as a scorer. I guess I'll probably focus on posting about him this round.
My early thoughts:

I think a lot of people will vastly overrate Ken Dryden. I lived and breathed the Habs as a kid, and Dryden was my goalie. However, he had the easiest job of any dynasty goalie. I was too young to remember his break-out 1971 season, so that clouds my judgement just a bit. However, ever since he came back from his one year sabbatical, he quite literally never stole a game for Montreal (that I saw or read about... and I watched the Habs in either English or French every weekend and each playoffs). If anything, he let in too many bad goals. Overall, he was steady but not spectacular. But his numbers are misleading.

I think Sawchuk finally makes my top five this time around... probably at fifth at this point.

It's also time for Mike Bossy to make an appearance in the top five. The pendulum has swung too far the bad way for Bossy in the voting. He was an incredible goal producer and his playoff scoring was sensational. It's almost heresy to keep him out for another round.

I think history has underrated Brad Park by a large margin. He is best known for playing in Orr's shadow. He was an incredible defenseman in his own right. He was Denis Potvin before Denis Potvin was Denis Potvin. He'll get in for me.

Paul Coffey wont' make my top five this time around, but I expect a lot of voters will be unduly harsh on him. He was a product of his time... his bread and butter was offense from the blueline so that's what he did. He may have been the greatest skater in the history of the NHL. He was a great, great talent, but we tend to be much harsher on one-dimensional defensemen more than one-dimensional forwards. I respect his very real skill, but he won't get in.

Yzerman was borderline for me last round, and the inclusion of Park and Chelios will make it borderline for him again.

Need to put more thought into how Lindsay and Lalonde fit in with this bunch.

I had Robinson number two the last round, so he is my number one for this round for now.
 

DannyGallivan

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That's true but it's still underwhelming. Lots of hart winners left to come - and lots of players with stronger hart records (even without actual wins) to come too.
There have always been some great players who happened to play in the shadows of greater players. I think that's what we're seeing here.
 

DannyGallivan

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He was no Bobby Orr although I often hear him referred to as a poor man's Orr, at least offensively. That's BS. One, Orr was (should have been) the league MVP every year he played a full or near full season. Period.
I'm still smarting that Orr isn't number one in this project.
 

DannyGallivan

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I agree that Brad Park seems to be behind the other three defensemen. Despite not winning the Cup, he was a strong playoff performer - but we'll get into that in another round or two. My first impression is he should be last this vote.
Other than Robinson, I couldn't disagree more. He played in the shadows of players already ahead of him in this project, most notably Bobby Orr. Right now, Park is in my top three with Larry Robinson.
 

DannyGallivan

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I hope they become eligible together; Firsov certainly has a case over Kharlamov. (That's the two Soviets I have in mind anyway.)

EDIT: Well, Tretiak's there too, I guess.
I'm surprised Kharlamov hasn't come up yet. I put Tretiak in the same boat as Dryden... kinda overrated by history.
 

DannyGallivan

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Orr was argubaly more dominating vs defensemen than Gretzky was for forwards - yet Paul Coffey came 1 point short of his season high. He has more goals than him in a season. He also has 5 of the top 10 defensemen point scoring seasons of all time (Orr has the other 5).
Imagine the point totals for both Gretzky and Orr if they played together. Coffey comes within sight of Orr's offensive abilities (within sight, but not anywhere as good). He may even have been a slightly better skater. However, Orr checked every box imaginable for a hockey player. Coffey left too many boxes unchecked to get in this round.
 
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bobholly39

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Considering how much Esposito was negatively affected by the Orr effect around here i can only expect Brad Park will be around for the next 5 rounds or so...
 

DannyGallivan

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Considering how much Esposito was negatively affected by the Orr effect around here i can only expect Brad Park will be around for the next 5 rounds or so...
He's the second best defenseman available right now, IMO. Although, Pierre Pilote hasn't made an appearance yet.
 

bobholly39

Registered User
Mar 10, 2013
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Imagine the point totals for both Gretzky and Orr if they played together. Coffey comes within sight of Orr's offensive abilities (within sight, but not anywhere as good). He may even have been a slightly better skater. However, Orr checked every box imaginable for a hockey player. Coffey left too many boxes unchecked to get in this round.

I mean if you're trying to tell me Orr is better than Coffey - save your breath and grab some coffee? ;)

Coffey's highest point totals are: 138, 126, 121, 113, 103.
Outside of Orr, the next best defensemen in history are:

Macinnis 103
Leetch 102
Potvin 101

So he'd have the 5 highest scoring seasons for a defenseman ever.

All of those guys played in a very high scoring era too - so it's not like it's some huge boost to Coffey. If you remove Orr Bourque becomes attractive as the best defender of all-time, and head to head Coffey destroys him offensively.

We do a lot of "if you remove Gretzky and Lemieux" exercises for forwards. If you do the same for Orr with Coffey - his numbers are staggering. Very strong playoff producer too.

Obviously there's the Gretzky effect (and the Lemieux effect) - but i'd love to see someone do a deeper dive on that. Do we credit Gretzky/Lemieux for Coffey's production, or vise versa? Or do they cancel each other out as equal participants in that relationship? The only times a forward came close to 200 points is when they had Coffey on their team.
 

DannyGallivan

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The only times a forward came close to 200 points is when they had Coffey on their team.
That's an interesting take on things. I liked Coffey, and as a Winnipeg Jet fan I had a front row seat at how he could dismantle a team by himself. Despite all of the Oilers' weapons, I do recall Coffey standing alone on occasion as the most deadly weapon of all when the Oilers played the Jets. Of course, that's tempered by the fact that the Jets were able to exploit him for a few goals of their own.

I've already flattered Coffey enough in previous posts. He was a great talent, but "likely" won't get in for me this round.
 

quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
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Paul Coffey might be the most talented player available and I look forward to voting him 2nd after Terry Sawchuk for, like, the next month.

Obviously he’s not Ray Bourque defensively but he scored at a 105-points-per-82 pace for 15 seasons and went to 7 Finals on 4 teams with 122 points in 117 games, so even just offensively and in terms of longevity, he’s fantastic.
 

Batis

Registered User
Sep 17, 2014
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Considering how much Esposito was negatively affected by the Orr effect around here i can only expect Brad Park will be around for the next 5 rounds or so...

Wait what? Didn't Park and Orr only play on the same team for 10 games during the 75/76 season? Hardly a comparable situation to the Esposito/Orr one.
 
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MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,672
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Considering how much Esposito was negatively affected by the Orr effect around here i can only expect Brad Park will be around for the next 5 rounds or so...

I don't get your post, at all.

EDIT : For the same reason Batis doesn't get it either.
 
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ChiTownPhilly

Not Too Soft
Feb 23, 2010
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...both Gretzky and Lemieux had their best seasons with him. Thats gotta mean something right?
: affects New England accent : "ask not what Coffey meant for Gretzky and Lemieux; ask what Gretzky and Lemieux meant for Coffey."
...the Jets were able to exploit him for a few goals of their own.
The Paul giveth- and the Paul taketh away.
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,134
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Longevity is significant. Some candidates clearly don't have it. Others have played at an elite level for a much longer time.
  • Coffey was a Norris finalist as a sophomore and in his 15th season won it for a third time after six finalist seasons spread over three NHL franchises.
  • Lindsay was the NHL leader in assists in his 13th season and was the NHL all-time leader in games played for a few years before Gordie passed him.
  • Lalonde won his first scoring title as a 21 year old and the fifth time over three leagues was as a 34 year old NHLer, holding the pro goals career record until Rocket Richard.
 
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bobholly39

Registered User
Mar 10, 2013
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Wait what? Didn't Park and Orr only play on the same team for 10 games during the 75/76 season? Hardly a comparable situation to the Esposito/Orr one.

I don't get your post, at all.

EDIT : For the same reason Batis doesn't get it either.

I meant in the sense that Orr barely stood out vs Esposito in some years looking at stats/awards - but he was that much above Park, a defender, in those same metrics every year.

Maybe it wasn't the best of analogies. A Gretzky vs Bossy goal-scoring might be the better analogy.
 
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DannyGallivan

Your world frightens and confuses me
Aug 25, 2017
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Melonville
I meant in the sense that Orr barely stood out vs Esposito in some years looking at stats/awards - but he was that much above Park, a defender, in those same metrics every year.

Maybe it wasn't the best of analogies. A Gretzky vs Bossy goal-scoring might be the better analogy.
No shade is thrown on Park because Orr was so much better. Park was a human.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
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Brooklyn
Paul Coffey might be the most talented player available and I look forward to voting him 2nd after Terry Sawchuk for, like, the next month.

Obviously he’s not Ray Bourque defensively but he scored at a 105-points-per-82 pace for 15 seasons and went to 7 Finals on 4 teams with 122 points in 117 games, so even just offensively and in terms of longevity, he’s fantastic.

And yet Chris Chelios, playing at almost the exact same time, has an almost identical Norris record, despite not having the advantage of eye-popping point totals.

Here are the complete Norris voting records of the 4 defensemen available this round:

Chelios: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 6, 6, 6, 6
Coffey: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 7, 9

Robinson: 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 5
Park: 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 8, 8, 9

Full records by season:

Chris Chelios

87-88: 6th
88-89: 1st
90-91: 3rd
91-92: 6th
92-93: 1st
93-94: 6th
94-95: 2nd
95-96: 1st
96-97: 4th
99-00: 6th
01-02: 2nd

Paul Coffey

81-82: 3rd
82-83: 5th
83-84: 2nd
84-85: 1st
85-86: 1st
86-87: 5th
87-88: 7th
88-89: 2nd
89-90: 4th
90-91: 5th
92-93: 9th
94-95: 1st
95-96: 5th

Brad Park

69-70: 2nd
70-71: 2nd
71-72: 2nd
72-73: 3rd
73-74: 2nd
74-75: 8th
75-76: 2nd
77-78: 2nd
78-79: 8th
80-81: 9th

Larry Robinson

76-77: 1st
77-78: 3rd
78-79: 2nd
79-80: 1st
80-81: 3rd
81-82: 5th
85-86: 3rd
86-87: 4th
 

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