Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 8

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by quoipourquoi, Dec 16, 2018.

  1. quoipourquoi Goaltender

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    Procedure
    • You will be presented with 10+ players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list (10 players plus anyone with 99% of the voting points of the 10th ranked player)
    • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
    • You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to quoipourquoi
    • Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
    • The top-4 players will be added to The List in Vote 1, while the top-5 players will be added to The List in subsequent voting cycles (#1-4 in Vote 1, #5-9 in Vote 2, #10-14 in Vote 3, #15-19 in Vote 4, #20-24 in Vote 5, #25-29 in Vote 6, #30-34 in Vote 7, #35-39 in Vote 8, #40-44 in Vote 9, #45-49 in Vote 10, #50-54 in Vote 11, #55-59 in Vote 12, #60-64 in Vote 13, #65-69 in Vote 14, #70-74 in Vote 15, #75-79 in Vote 16, #80-84 in Vote 17, #85-89 in Vote 18, #90-94 in Vote 19, #95-99 in Vote 20)
    • A 100th player will be added to The List in Vote 21 from an expanded group of 15 candidates

    Eligible Voters
    • Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 120 players (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated in the History of Hockey ranking
    • Art of Sedinery, Batis, BenchBrawl, blogofmike, bobholly39, Canadiens1958, ChiTownPhilly, DannyGallivan, Dennis Bonvie, Dr John Carlson, ehhedler, Hockey Outsider, Iceman, ImporterExporter, Johnny Engine, JoseTheodore2002, kruezer, Kyle McMahon, Mike Farkas, MXD, pappyline, quoipourquoi, ResilientBeast, Sentinel, seventieslord, steve141, ted1971, TheDevilMadeMe, TheGeneral, The Macho Man, tony d, VanIslander

    Guidelines
    • Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
    • Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players
    • Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
    • Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project.

    House Rules
    • Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
    • We encourage interpositional discussion (forward vs. defenseman vs. goaltender) as opposed to the safer and somewhat redundant intrapositional debates. Overemphasizing a tired single-position argument like, I don’t know, Harvey/Lidstrom, will only be briefly tolerated before one is asked to move on to a less tedious comparison.
    • Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
    • Finish your drink when someone mentions that goaltenders cannot be compared to skaters

    The actual voting period will open up on Friday, December 21st at midnight and continue throughout the holidays until Sunday, December 30th at noon. Eastern time zone. I will release the results of the vote on Sunday, December 30th.


    Vote 8 Candidates
    • Brad Park
    • Chris Chelios
    • Ken Dryden
    • Larry Robinson
    • Mike Bossy
    • Newsy Lalonde
    • Paul Coffey
    • Steve Yzerman
    • Ted Lindsay
    • Terry Sawchuk
     
  2. TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Preliminary thoughts:

    Holy defensemen batman....

    I'll start by saying that IMO, only Chelios and Robinson are relevant this round among defensemen. Park was an all-rounder too, but injuries limited him a bit later on, and he doesn't have Robinson's playoffs or Chelios' insane longevity.

    Dryden is an interesting comparison to Robinson....

    Sawchuk, Lindsay, Bossy are my highest carryovers from last round and current favorites... But unlike last round, when I thought Brodeur, Cook, and Sakic were easy choices, this round I'm much more open.

    I am shocked to be writing this... but Terry Sawchuk of all players has a shot at my #1 this round... :eek:

    Ted Lindsay should really get more consideration than he has been. Great playoff performer. Such a well-rounded player. His well roundedness is why I usually vote him over Bossy (by a tiny tiny margin). Though I understand he wasn't quite Bossy as a scorer. I guess I'll probably focus on posting about him this round.
     
  3. Captain Bowie Registered User

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    Am I counting right, only 4 new candidates this round?
     
  4. zffssk On Break

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    No Henri Richard? Disappointed.
     
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  5. Hockey Outsider Registered User

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    Hart trophy shares (1945-2018) - minimum 5% threshold

    Player1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th+Total
    Terry Sawchuk134
    Ken Dryden123
    Ted Lindsay1113
    Mike Bossy112
    Steve Yzerman112
    Paul Coffey22
    Brad Park22
    Larry Robinson11
    Surprisingly little Hart support for any of these players - just four years as a finalist between the nine post-WWII players up for this vote. Note that Chelios place in the top ten in Hart voting three times but never got more than the 5% threshold I'm using.

    VsX summary

    Player 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th 7YR 10YR
    Ted Lindsay 116.4 113.0 110.4 101.6 100.0 100.0 89.4 86.7 70.4 69.9 104.4 95.8
    Mike Bossy 108.6 100.0 97.5 95.2 88.1 87.2 86.7 83.5 77.3 69.4 94.8 89.4
    Steve Yzerman 111.5 98.4 93.9 92.6 88.8 84.0 83.3 79.2 78.0 77.9 93.2 88.8
    Paul Coffey 104.1 97.9 89.6 82.9 81.3 80.9 79.8 77.4 64.2 62.0 88.1 82.0
    Brad Park 90.1 72.5 67.0 63.8 51.0 49.6 48.9 48.9 47.9 47.1 63.3 58.7
    Larry Robinson 81.0 63.0 59.6 58.2 52.6 50.8 50.4 46.3 40.1 37.0 59.4 53.9
    Chris Chelios 60.0 55.7 54.3 52.5 50.0 49.3 48.3 47.4 46.6 46.2 52.9 51.0
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
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  6. Captain Bowie Registered User

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    Wow, not a single Hart winner available.
     
  7. Dr John Carlson Light is all over us

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    Getting a few players who were deeper down on my initial list now, namely Coffey and Dryden.
     
  8. MXD Original #4

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    I'm pretty sure he's available next round (and he'll be probably the most hot-cold player in this whole thing).

    I'm looking at this group and there's no way Richard would've made it. Better than Coffey, and I'm now ready entertain that he's better than Terry Sawchuk. But that's it.
     
  9. ted2019 Know your History

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    Does Chelios hang on way past his expiration date hinder him at all?
     
  10. wetcoast Registered User

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    There are 2 other obvious center who might come up before him.

    Realistically at this point there are probably a dozen guys who could have been those 4 guys.

    Glad to see Chelios.

    Park, Dryden and Coffey I'm not so sure.
     
  11. wetcoast Registered User

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    It should have zero impact since so few players even play at that age.

    They are kind of elite for their age group but I wouldn't hold it as much of a plus either unless they were doing something significant.

    I think that happened after his age 42 season, his significance drops alot in MPG and role ect....
     
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  12. Captain Bowie Registered User

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    I know Chelios put up some good numbers in the first half of his career. But where they all that impressive? I had a hard time finding a stretch of seasons where he was top 5 in scoring for defencemen. In fact I think 96 was the only season has top 5 in scoring for a defenceman in a single year.

    If his case was based mainly around his defensive play, how strong is it?
     
  13. wetcoast Registered User

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    I think that his defensive game was very strong and he brought a Larry Robinson type of effect on the back end.

    When Chelios was on the ice he meant business.

    I remember Chelios was 40 in the first round matchup with the Canucks, Bertuzzi just destroys him in the corner early in game 1 I believe.

    Chelios even looked intimidated for about .001 seconds.

    Then he came back and literally played top level chelios for the rest of that playoffs.

    I think Lidstrom was deserving of the Conn Smythe that year but not many would have batted an eye if Chelios had won it.
     
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  14. Dirt 101 Dirt, the famous Nevada railway cat

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    Let's compare their NHL all-star team records (get a sense of the number of top-performing seasons):

    Brad Park
    1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd

    Chris Chelios
    1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd

    Ken Dryden
    1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd

    Larry Robinson
    1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd

    Mike Bossy
    1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd

    Paul Coffey
    1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd

    Steve Yzerman
    1st (would have 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd if Gretzky & Lemieux are factored out - and note: that 2nd was behind Messier).

    Ted Lindsay
    1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd

    Terry Sawchuk
    1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd

    Notes:
    • Robinson has less 1sts than the others.
    • Yzerman too has less, for the flip side of the same coin as Lindsay has more: number of elite competitors at the position.
    • Lalonde needs multiple league star records.
    • Sawchuk's career doesn't look so absent of lengthy greatness this round.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2018
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  15. Captain Bowie Registered User

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    /\ All-Star selections?
     
  16. wetcoast Registered User

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    For players this round, I have Yzerman as the top center and probably top 3

    Lalonde I'm not sure how to place, I can see the case for quite high and also for lower down.

    For wingers I can see Bossy head of Lindsay.

    Bossy is probably top 5 for me as well this round. Lindsay has a case for top but I would be more convinced if he didn't drop off as much as he did after the trade.

    I know that he was 32 and 33 but if he had a similar 58 season with the Black Hawks to the one he had in 59 it would firm up his case, or at least make it better.

    Sawchuck/Dryden?

    Each has their case but I'll go with Dryden who was dominate his whole, albeit short career.

    Now for the meat of the matter in Robinson, Chelios, Park and Coffey.

    I think that both chelios and Robinson have cases for top player this round.

    Park is the type of guy who most people are very comfortable placing him in any round.

    What you see in Park you got. No real question marks but still a teeny bit down from Robinson and Chelios overall.

    Coffey is a guy who will be all over the map from number 1 to NR overall.

    I think Yzerman, Robinson and Chelios would be my top 3 and another 2 from Lalonde, Dryden, Bossy, Park and maybe Coffey would round out my top 5 as having the strongest cases.
     
  17. sr edler whom

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    Not excited at all about the new candidates.
     
  18. ImporterExporter "You're a boring old man"

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    Yes! Dryden vs Sawchuk. I like that. Both have incredibly strong peaks and should make for a great comparison.

    Coffey? Yuck, yuck, yuck.

    Brad Park isn't as big a yuck but I have a few Dmen ranked over both of them. Chelios and Robinson are 2 and a few not on the list are as well.

    Missing 2 Soviets IMO.
     
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  19. wetcoast Registered User

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    One comes to mind.

    Not so sure how he would fare in this round though.
     
  20. ChiTownPhilly Not Too Soft

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    Nice to have a new list to look over before starting the new week in earnest!

    Thanks all around to everyone for no spoiled ballots last round!!

    My first thoughts:
    1) Larry Robinson & Mike Bossy- the top vote-getting remainders from the last round, start as my 1 & 2 for THIS round.
    2) Chris Chelios & Ken Dryden are immediately relevant in this discussion.
    3) Want to brush up on my Lalonde research to see if my initial impression of him as an upper-half guy will withstand scrutiny.
    4) Yzerman and Sawchuk no longer seem like misfit-kids in this company.
    5) Having a hard time seeing Coffey and Lindsay as upper-half guys.
     
  21. Hockey Outsider Registered User

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    I think I was too harsh on Sawchuk on my initial list. Now that I'm comparing him directly to Dryden, I don't see any way to rank the Hab first. A really high-level case is both had a relatively short but very high peak on outstanding teams, but surely Sawchuk being a league-average goalie for another decade is more valuable than Dryden not playing at all. (Remember, Sawchuk was league average primarily during the Original Six era, when being average meant you were the 3rd or 4th best goalie in the world).

    I agree that Brad Park seems to be behind the other three defensemen. Despite not winning the Cup, he was a strong playoff performer - but we'll get into that in another round or two. My first impression is he should be last this vote.

    I also agree that Coffey's rankings are likely to be all over the map (EDIT - on second thought, it's probably a round too early for him to be "all over the map", as that implies he'll be getting some top three votes).
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2018
  22. ChiTownPhilly Not Too Soft

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    I think no.

    The Filthy-Factor might cause me to double-check my relatively positive early perception of Chelios- but probably not a whole lot. It's not like Lalonde and Lindsay didn't have that element in their play, as well...
     
  23. ImporterExporter "You're a boring old man"

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    I don't even have Coffey in the top 50.

    I'm sorry, but I refuse to put a player who was quite bad at actual defending that high. Points be damned. He was no Bobby Orr although I often hear him referred to as a poor man's Orr, at least offensively. That's BS. One, Orr was (should have been) the league MVP every year he played a full or near full season. Period. Coffey played with Gretzky and Mario for a big part (prime/peak) of his career. He was a passenger and took advantage of a wide open era where his weaknesses were overlooked. One of the most overrated hockey players I've ever seen.

    Bossy and Lindsay should be an interesting comparison. Both were sort of 2nd/3rd wheels on their respective teams that won multiple Cups. Bossy is the sexy pick but dare I say Lindsay was simply a better all around hockey player.
     
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  24. unknown33 Registered User

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    Yeah well that's why he is just 'poor man's' Orr.

    Calling Coffey a passanger is a bit of a joke. Makes it seem like he was Bernie Nicholls or something like that.
     
  25. Sprague Cleghorn User Registered

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    Im of the opinion that players can only add to their resume, not substract (save from being a locker room cancer, or actively scoring on their own team, which Chelios did not). Why would you punish players for playing a long time? Surely playing at a bottom pairing D level contributes more to the team than not playing at all? In the case of Chelios, his 40+ year old seasons add to his resume, but only a tiny bit as to bordering on inconsequential.
     

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