Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 5

Theokritos

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we see it all the time in the NHL when a new coach comes in and a system is adapted, teams can play over their heads for a while but it doesn't change the actual individual talent level of any players.

"Over their heads for a while"? Like for the entire 1980s (Green Unit)?

But like I said it's a hypothetical so it's a matter of opinion and we can't judge what didn't happen.

What we however can do is to make the reasonable assumption that Bourque and Potvin wouldn't have fared better with CSKA than Fetisov did with New Jersey.
 

MXD

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... In retrospect, I had three tiers in this one :

- The first five (in which happens to be Ovechkin, Messier, Mikita and the goalies)
- The next five
- The Rry Sawchuk
 
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Killion

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....The Hawks as a group are not very good organized defensively though...

Came away impressed with Moose Vasko...hadn't seen a lot of him before, very strong defensive player...consistent and reliable...like a lesser Leo Boivin, not quite as good with the puck as Boivin in my view...

Speaking of underrated players: Bob Pulford and George Armstrong can play for me any day of the week...they don't get enough chatter in this forum (not that they belong in this thread, but I don't know when I'm ever going to get to say this again)...

That they were not (well organized Defensively) however yes, Elmer Moose Vasko (usually paired with Pilote) an absolutely classic Stay-At-Home Defenceman & one of the Blackhawks most popular players of not just that but any & all era's.... certainly one of mine as well..... Toe Blake when asked "which one of the Leafs players would you most like to have on your team" unhesitatingly replied with (never mind the Big M, Dave Keon, Horton or Baun etc) "Bob Pulford. He's the heart & soul of that club". Mightve added "conscience" as well as Pully was an absolutely outstanding 2 way Shutdown Specialist. Nemesis to the best of his generation all of whom spoke very highly of him indeed (Gordie Howe called him "my biggest headache"). Pulford more remembered today for being Best Friends with Eagleson, Wirtz's Toady, vilified, despised. Regardless, as a player, he & Moose 2 of my favorites from that era, as was Leo Boivin, George Armstrong & of course, Stan Mikita. You really do have to watch guys like Pulford, Vasko, Gadsby, Howell, Pronovost and even the lesser lights to get their true measure, full picture as to just how good these players actually were. More than a few jumping right off the screen atcha while others, far more subtle, professorial, dominating quietly.
 

Canadiens1958

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My bad for responding to a trick question I guess but it's really trivial as the Red wings only had 5 Russian players period.

Now perhaps for the 4th time you can answer my question on how much higher relevance was Fetisov to those Wings teams if my 8th assertion was too low?

Your non answer is fine as well, as others can determine as to why that is the case.

I mean Tony Hand was the best British produced hockey player drafted in the NHL but it's about as relevant as the fact that no Russian player could have been on the Red wings Russian five since they only had 5 Russian players in total, right?

The game within the game. Bowman traded for Slava Fetisov since it would allow him to ice two distinct styles of play. A traditional NHL style generated by the non-Russsian players and a CSKA/Russian style played by the right mix of CSKA former CSKA players. Fetisov was the best at defending and generating offence within the CSKA/Russian style of play and had been extremely successful.He knew the reads, the flows,where the other CSKA/Russian players should be and he ran the show.All that mattered was the success of the 5 man unit not your fixation with Fetisov's individual stats.

The dual approach meant the opposition had to defend two distinct offensive styles and attack two distinct defences.No other team enjoyed such an advantage.

This value that Fetisov brought could not be replicated.Konstantinov, a former forward lacked Fetisov's experience.
 

Canadiens1958

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Potvin was very much aided by Al Arbour's coaching...the Isles were probably the best coached teams in that era, they were as predictable and cohesive as anyone in that time...proper support triangles and spacing were rare in that loose goose era...the Isles had it down pat. Potvin not having to make long stretch passes like Paul Coffey or headlong carries like Reed Larson helped him to be effective in all three zones...

Potvin, imo, is the engine that made it all run as smoothly as it did...but the way that that post is worded is a misrepresentation of the game in my eyes...

Arbour had played for Bowman in St.Louis. Second best coached. Arbour's Islanders never beat Bowman's Canadiens in a playoff series. Arbour had problems keeping Bossy away from Gainey at home.
 
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Canadiens1958

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Like I said in the earlier post this is all hypothetical because it didn't happen but we see it all the time in the NHL when a new coach comes in and a system is adapted, teams can play over their heads for a while but it doesn't change the actual individual talent level of any players.

We actually saw the result of Potvin's talent as he came into a poor team situation right away and made it better because of his talent, not because of any system.

2 points on the part in bold.

1) exactly how many 5 man player units are there in NHL history?

2) The Russian 5 didn't actually happen until Larinov arrived, it's a neat trivial factor but no one talked about the Russian 4 or anything like that before Igor arrived.

But like I said it's a hypothetical so it's a matter of opinion and we can't judge what didn't happen.

I think it's more important to focus on what did happen, 2 forwards of the Russian five had much greater individual success than Fetisov did, despite the general trend of elite Dmen aging better than elite forwards.

First generation + of the NHL. So old it seems new.
 

seventieslord

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Anywhere. Per home game works as long as the opposing goalies shots are brokendown at the same time.

What I'm saying is that there is an observable difference in how shots are tracked, in New Jersey. Not in games specifically including the Devils or Brodeur. But specifically in New Jersey. This has nothing at all to do with rebounds, unless you think there are fewer rebounds in that arena.
 

blogofmike

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I voted and had Terry Sawchuk off the ballot. It seems so very odd to have Glenn Hall in the top half and Sawchuk off the list, but Hall had a good week.
 
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Killion

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Arbour had played for Bowman in St.Louis. Second best coached. Arbour's Islanders never beat Bowman's Canadiens in a playoff series. Arbour had problems keeping Bossy away from Gainey at home.

He did indeed though just how much influence a younger Scotty Bowman had on the then veteran Al Arbour who had been Leafs property for some time (previously Chicago & Detroit) is questionable. Arbour hard up against it with Toronto deep on Defence while they were vying for & winning Cups under Imlach with his focus on Team Defence and Special Units, something Arbour employed to great effect with the Islanders. Arbour as a player best noted for his selfless shot blocking abilities & responsible play. He spent most of his time in Rochester with the Americans where he was a 4X All Star and in 65, Defenceman of the Year in the AHL. Grabbed by Bowman & the Blues in 67 of course.....

Scotty meanwhile, he really had some difficulties in transitioning from the success that he'd enjoyed working with Sam Pollock in Hull-Ottawa with the Jr. Canadiens, winning the Memorial Cup in 58 then moving on to Peterborough for 3yrs. He wasnt about to be replacing Toe Blake in 1963 however the natural progression for a talent within the Junior Coaching Ranks at that time would be to move up the rung within the organization (in this case obviously, Montreal) to one of the Farm Clubs and that he did; the Omaha Knights of the CPHL.... and thats when he hit a brick wall, the Brothers Morrison, owners of the club & by all accounts "odd, difficult" to say the least.... Scotty was still young, headstrong, things still gelling in his mind, much to learn.... Lasted all of 8 games as Head Coach, and while his record was sensational at 8-0 he Resigned claiming "nervous breakdown".

So, my take on just how much influence Scotty Bowman had on Al Arbour is a little different C58. I think instead Scotty absorbed much from Al, from Doug Harvey, Jacques Plante & Glenn Hall & other legends, both players & those with whom he was surrounded (Jimmy Devellano, Cliff Fletcher etc) off the ice. He was a kid Coaching a team of seasoned, long in the tooth Vets in St.Louis and wisely, in being surrounded by great minds did a lot more listening & learning then yapping off & demanding much of anything. He'd already blown his circuits in Nebraska in trying to deal with grown men, professionals in attempting to "lay down the law" and that not only didnt work.... the Young Man resigned exhausted, spent... Section 8... Maybe that metal plate in his head moved. Only rather than imaginary hearing voices for real. Picking up radio signals from those illegal super powered towers just south of the border in Mexico that killed migrating birds by the 1000's but I digress.Whatever.... Pilgrims Progress. A learning experience. Finishing School. Eventual heir apparent to take over behind the bench in Montreal, Prodigal Son returns. Achieves greatness... Biblical.
 
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Canadiens1958

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He did indeed though just how much influence a younger Scotty Bowman had on the then veteran Al Arbour who had been Leafs property for some time (previously Chicago & Detroit) is questionable. Arbour hard up against it with Toronto deep on Defence while they were vying for & winning Cups under Imlach with his focus on Team Defence and Special Units, something Arbour employed to great effect with the Islanders. Arbour as a player best noted for his selfless shot blocking abilities & responsible play. He spent most of his time in Rochester with the Americans where he was a 4X All Star and in 65, Defenceman of the Year in the AHL. Grabbed by Bowman & the Blues in 67 of course.....

Scotty meanwhile, he really had some difficulties in transitioning from the success that he'd enjoyed working with Sam Pollock in Hull-Ottawa with the Jr. Canadiens, winning the Memorial Cup in 58 then moving on to Peterborough for 3yrs. He wasnt about to be replacing Toe Blake in 1963 however the natural progression for a talent within the Junior Coaching Ranks at that time would be to move up the rung within the organization (in this case obviously, Montreal) to one of the Farm Clubs and that he did; the Omaha Knights of the CPHL.... and thats when he hit a brick wall, the Brothers Morrison, owners of the club & by all accounts "odd, difficult" to say the least.... Scotty was still young, headstrong, things still gelling in his mind, much to learn.... Lasted all of 8 games as Head Coach, and while his record was sensational at 8-0 he Resigned claiming "nervous breakdown".

So, my take on just how much influence Scotty Bowman had on Al Arbour is a little different C58. I think instead Scotty absorbed much from Al, from Doug Harvey, Jacques Plante & Glenn Hall & other legends, both players & those with whom he was surrounded (Jimmy Devellano, Cliff Fletcher etc) off the ice. He was a kid Coaching a team of seasoned, long in the tooth Vets in St.Louis and wisely, in being surrounded by great minds did a lot more listening & learning then yapping off & demanding much of anything. He'd already blown his circuits in Nebraska in trying to deal with grown men, professionals in attempting to "lay down the law" and that not only didnt work.... the Young Man resigned exhausted, spent... Section 8... Maybe that metal plate in his head moved. Only rather than imaginary hearing voices for real. Picking up radio signals from those illegal super powered towers just south of the border in Mexico that killed migrating birds by the 1000's but I digress.Whatever.... Pilgrims Progress. A learning experience. Finishing School. Eventual heir apparent to take over behind the bench in Montreal, Prodigal Son returns. Achieves greatness.as defined.. Biblical.

Canadiens hierarchy was coaching was defined by proximity to the Forum. When Ruel was promoted from Junior Canadiens HC to the Canadiens assistant with Toe Blake, Bowman replaced him as Junior Canadiens HC.

Details are internal but Bowman after
a few good seasons was named Omaha HC as far away from the Forum as the Canadiens system allowed.
 
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Captain Bowie

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Haven't been able to keep up with the discussion all that much this weekend, working long hours all weekend. But I did get my vote in, excited to see how it all shook it. Doesn't seem as wide open as last week, expect Sawchuk and Clarke at the bottom, Nighbor, Lafleur and Messier at or near the top, and have a feeling Brodeur will get through as a first time eligible. If I were to venture a guess to go through with those 4, it'd be Mikita.
 

seventieslord

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Haven't been able to keep up with the discussion all that much this weekend, working long hours all weekend. But I did get my vote in, excited to see how it all shook it. Doesn't seem as wide open as last week, expect Sawchuk and Clarke at the bottom, Nighbor, Lafleur and Messier at or near the top, and have a feeling Brodeur will get through as a first time eligible. If I were to venture a guess to go through with those 4, it'd be Mikita.

Mikita should go in, but I predict he won't. Looking at last week's voting, Nighbor and Messier are locks, and Mikita would have to overcome small gaps to pass one of Lafleur, Ovechkin and Esposito, and that's IF none of the new candidates pass him.
 

Captain Bowie

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Mikita should go in, but I predict he won't. Looking at last week's voting, Nighbor and Messier are locks, and Mikita would have to overcome small gaps to pass one of Lafleur, Ovechkin and Esposito, and that's IF none of the new candidates pass him.
Could be. I feel Esposito's stock has dropped the most by far over the last week.
 

Theokritos

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Apr 6, 2010
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Assuming the Soviet coach is in the bottom 10% like Cunniff was in NJ.

The point is that you couldn't reasonably hold it against Potvin/Bourque/etc if they struggled in a Green Unit/Russian-Five setup. It wouldn't make them lesser players.
 

MXD

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Oct 27, 2005
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Mikita should go in, but I predict he won't. Looking at last week's voting, Nighbor and Messier are locks, and Mikita would have to overcome small gaps to pass one of Lafleur, Ovechkin and Esposito, and that's IF none of the new candidates pass him.

I think we'll have our first newly-eligible player being voted in (well, for the first time since the Big-4) AND Mikita will also make it.
 

Captain Bowie

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Why?

I haven't seen a reason.

Espo, Lafleur, Nighbor... nothing's come up to change thinking on them, has it?
This post was a big reason for me.

On paper, Phil Esposito has one of the best resumes of any remaining player - six goal-scoring titles (all consecutive), three assist titles, five Art Ross trophies (in a span of six years), not to mention six straight years as a first-team all-star, two Harts and two Pearsons/Lindays. He led the playoffs in goals and points three times in a span of four years. We forget that, for a brief period, Esposito dominated the single-season scoring records. As of 1975, he had scored 60+ goals four times, which nobody else had even done once. He also had six 125+ point seasons (Orr had two, nobody else had ever done that even once).

He had pretty good longevity as a scorer (he was at least top ten in scoring all but once from ages 22 to 32, and was in the top twenty every year from 22 to 35). I know most of us aren't big on career numbers, but when Esposito retired in 1981, he was 2nd all-time in goals and points in the regular season, and 5th all-time in playoff scoring.

The obvious issue with Esposito is there are lingering questions about the extent to which he was a product of Orr. Many of us have touched on this in the last thread, but I'll try to systematically review the evidence.

For the prosecution - Esposito was largely a product of Orr

1. Visual evidence. Have you ever watched the Orr-era Bruins play? No disrespect to Esposito, but it's plainly obvious that it was Orr, not Esposito, who dominated possession and really drove the play.
Defense responds: that's an unfair standard. Nobody is denying that Orr is the better player. He's already been named the 3rd greatest player ever. Esposito is going to be at least 15-20 spots behind him - isn't that enough?

2. Esposito's sudden decline in 1976. The single most damning argument against Esposito is his significant and immediate decline in production in 1976 (he was traded to New York early in the season). After five straight years of 55+ goals and 125+ points, his production plummeted to 35 goals and 83 points. Yes, he was a year older, but surely that doesn't explain a 44 point drop in production overnight.
Defense responds: True, but Esposito was still pretty productive in New York. In his first five years on Broadway, he was 11th in scoring (the same is true if you use a shorter time frame, like first three years). This was in his mid to late 30s. If you only look at players age 30 and beyond (and even this is tough on Phil as he was 33 to 37 during this stretch), only Ratelle outscores him.
Prosecutor responds: Nobody is blaming Esposito for slowing down as he got older. The fact that it was such a sharp drop, immediately after being separated from Orr, is what's so damaging. Ratelle is actually two years older than Esposito, and failing to keep pace with Ratelle doesn't look great. During this period, Espo barely outpaced Jean Pronovost (all in his 30's).

3. Anecdotal evidence. It's disingenuous to argue that Orr didn't help Esposito, when we see Orr did that with numerous other teammates. The clearest example might be Johnny Bucyk. He had a long, healthy career and never placed in the top five in goals, assists or points. But he placed in the top three in all of those categories in 1971 - not saying he's an outright product of Orr, but nobody denies that #4 certainly helped him boost his stats. Or look at Ken Hodge. He had three seasons as a top five scorer in Boston at ages 24 to 29. After Orr was finished, he had two years where he never placed higher than 40th in scoring, then was out of the NHL by 34. We already have a ton of anecdotal evidence that Orr made his teammates better, but the defense wants to pretend that it doesn't apply to their client.
Defense responds: you're ascribing all of those changes to Orr. Wouldn't Esposito have contributed to some of that, given how much ice time he played with Bucyk and Hodge? If anything, this a positive for him.

4. Esposito achieved little in the playoffs without Orr. We'll ignore 1964, Esposito's rookie season. But in those last three years in Chicago, Esposito scored just 8 points in 25 playoffs games (0.32 PPG), after scoring 169 points in 208 games (0.81 PPG) in the regular season. Esposito was also unimpressive in two of his three playoffs post-Orr.
Defense responds: okay, that doesn't look great, but we all know that the 1960s Blackhawks struggled in the playoffs, and it's not fair to give a young second-line player undue blame. You're also glossing over the 1979 playoffs. At age 36, Esposito led the Rangers in goals (outright) and points (tied), and helped drag them to the Stanley Cup finals. He was third in scoring (behind two Canadiens) and was the third oldest player in the postseason.
Prosecution responds: Esposito was impressive in the 1979 playoffs, granted. But it was his one and only successful playoff run without Orr. And how great was it, really? He scored a lot of points, but was on the ice for more ES goals against than any other forward that spring.

5. Esposito's performance in games that Orr missed. Previous studies have shown that Esposito's production decreased by about 20% in the games that Orr missed.
Defense responds: Orr didn't miss too many games during Esposito's prime, so we're dealing with small sample sizes here, which might make these numbers less reliable. Besides, didn't the source data that supported these numbers get lost when HFBoards upgraded servers? Maybe this was all a scheme from the anti-Esposito lobby to destroy the data...
The Court intervenes: we're not here to debate conspiracy theories!

For the defense - Esposito was an all-time great in his own right
1. Performance in Chicago. Esposito spent his first four seasons in Chicago, and he demonstrated that he was a top offensive talent. From 1965 to 1967 (ages 22 to 24), Espo was 8th in goals and 7th in scoring, while getting second-line minutes and limited PP time. In even-strength scoring, he was 4th (behind only his teammates Mikita and Hull, and Norm Ullman) during this period. It probably wasn't Orr directly that allowed Esposito to flourish, it was getting out of Hull and Mikita's shadow and getting more ice time.
Prosecution responds: Nobody is denying that Esposito was a great offensive talent. But there's a big difference between being a good ES contributor (see Henri Richard), and winning five Art Ross trophies. The prosecution agrees that Esposito, even without Orr, would probably challenge for the league lead in goals or points - but he wouldn't win those titles so consistently, or by such large margins.

2. Performance in 1968 and 1969. Orr missed close to half the season in 1968 and scored only 31 points. That year, Esposito was top five in goals, led the league in assists, and was runner-up only to Mikita in scoring. In 1969, Orr missed a bit of time, and was very good (64 points), but still not the league-wrecking prime Orr that we think of. Esposito again led the league in assists, and won the Art Ross trophy decisively.
Prosecution responds: see above. The prosecution has already acknowledged that Esposito was a top offensive talent in his own right. But in 1968, Esposito was very much with the rest of the pack (he was within a few points of Mikita, Howe and Ratelle), with Orr missing almost half the year. The next year, Orr is much healthier and much better, and Esposito`s offense skyrockets. Even if Orr wasn't quite at his absolute peak at that time, this is entirely consistent with the prosecution's contention that Espo needed Orr to dominate the scoring race.

3. 1972 Summit Series. Everybody here recognizes the significance of the Summit Series. Orr didn't play, and Esposito tied for the tournament lead in goals, and led the tournament in scoring outright. Anybody who watched the series would agree that Espo was the catalyst on his line.
Prosecution responds: True, but it was only a sample of eight games - not large enough to truly demonstrate that Esposito was a gamebreaker on his own. Not that we're comparing him to Orr, but Esposito still got to play with a top offensive defenseman during the series (Brad Park). Furthermore, Esposito didn't play in the 1974 series, and he didn't distinguish himself in the 1976 series (where Orr played).

4. Award voting. Esposito won two Hart trophies, and was a finalist three more times. He also won two Pearson/Lindsay trophies. Surely if the people who watched him play consistently voted him as one of the best players in the league, he wasn't a product of Orr.
Prosecution responds. This isn't as impressive as it appears at first glance. Looking at the eight years they overlapped in Boston, Orr finished ahead of Esposito in Hart voting in 1968, 1970, 1971, 1972 and 1975. The only years Esposito finished ahead were two years where Orr was injured (1969 and 1973), and then (inexplicably) 1974. It's more accurate to say that, except in years where Orr was injured, he consistently finished ahead of Espo in Hart voting - which supports the prosecution's case. Furthermore, it's well established that defensemen are at a disadvantage compared to forwards in Hart voting. So the fact that Orr is ahead is that much more damning. And don't even bring up the Pearson - it's too biased against defenseman. In 45 years, a defenseman has only won the award one time.

The Court's decision

On balance, The Court finds the prosecution's evidence more persuasive. The visual evidence (argument #1) is sufficiently damaging to the defense's case, and Esposito's sudden decline without Orr (argument #2) is also convincing. The defense raised some interesting counter-arguments. They've convinced The Court that Esposito would have been a top scorer, even if he had never played with Orr, but there's a big difference between being an Art Ross contender, and someone who re-wrote the records books the way that Esposito did.

To help estimate Orr's impact on Esposito's legacy, The Court removed 20% from Esposito's scoring totals from 1970 to 1975 (doing the same for the other Bruins aside from Orr). In terms of goal-scoring, he would have had 5th, 1st, 1st, 3rd, 1st, and 3rd place finishes. Instead of having six goal-scoring crowns, he'd only have three - still an impressive number, but far less than before (and none of which would be by a large margin). Including the sixties, he'd have eight straight years as a top five goal-scorer.

Applying the same analysis to points, Esposito's stretch from 1970 to 1975 results in 3rd, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 2nd and T-5th. That means Espo would have had two Art Ross trophies (don't forget the one from 1969), and eight top-five finishes (including 1968 and 1969). This offensive resume is impressive, of course, but far more modest. (Note that The Court has assumed that Orr's production wouldn't have changed, had he not played with the hulking centre). In the Court's view, that pushes him clearly behind the likes of Mikita and even Ovechkin (at least as far as regular season offense is concerned - but it's not like Espo was a great defensive player, and it's been established that he did little of note in the playoffs without Orr).

In summary, The Court acknowledges that Esposito would have been good enough to contend for the Art Ross trophy without Orr. But that doesn't change the fact that his resume would have been far less impressive. Since Esposito's case rests so heavily on his stats and trophy case, it is The Court's judgment that it's too early for the Sault Ste. Marie native.
 
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wetcoast

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the real way to say this is lidstrom was darn lucky to play his formative years with brad mccrimmon, mark howe, and eventually coffey, who ftr joined detroit midway through lidstrom’s second season.

I guess one can play that game with every player in history then right?

Lidstrom was already showing very well as a player in Sweden, both in the mens league and the world junior hockey championship in 89-90 and 90-91 already.

He had an excellent rookie season with only Brad McCrimmon there, sure Brad helped but I think it went both ways.

Back to the point at hand Fetisov is getting alot of credit here for stuff that there is a lot of evidence against while a guy in earlier rounds had his longevity dismissed by several voters here.

It's hard to tell what the standard is sometimes as it seems to be applied differently.

To be fair though it is a very subjective process and I think we can all be guilty of this at times.
 

wetcoast

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"Over their heads for a while"? Like for the entire 1980s (Green Unit)?

To be clear I was talking about NHL teams, more in the current phase when defensive play and other factors made it much easier to do so.


What we however can do is to make the reasonable assumption that Bourque and Potvin wouldn't have fared better with CSKA than Fetisov did with New Jersey.

That's great but it's still an assumption.

What isn't an assumption is that 2 forwards of the green unit fared better than Fetisov and that as a general rule elite Dmen can maintain that status longer than forwards.

I'll take the reality over assumption 8 days a week.
 

wetcoast

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The game within the game. Bowman traded for Slava Fetisov since it would allow him to ice two distinct styles of play. A traditional NHL style generated by the non-Russsian players and a CSKA/Russian style played by the right mix of CSKA former CSKA players. Fetisov was the best at defending and generating offence within the CSKA/Russian style of play and had been extremely successful.He knew the reads, the flows,where the other CSKA/Russian players should be and he ran the show.All that mattered was the success of the 5 man unit not your fixation with Fetisov's individual stats.

The dual approach meant the opposition had to defend two distinct offensive styles and attack two distinct defences.No other team enjoyed such an advantage.

This value that Fetisov brought could not be replicated.Konstantinov, a former forward lacked Fetisov's experience.


Okay so you either can't or won't answer the question.

I'll leave it to others to decide the validity of your claims.

The fact of the matter is that all 4 other players on the unit had previous success without Fetisov and other that purely subjective assumptions on your part the individual results for Fetisov don't reflect your narrative.

As far as the distinctive style, it was the mid 90's not the 1970's.

The Nhl had already transformed into a more fluid European style of game post WHA and influx of many great players from Europe and was no longer the strictly north south game that it had been.

I hope that you will be making the same type of case for Larinov when he comes up.
 

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