Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 20

[ted2019]

Bio from Dreakmur:

Awards and Achievements:
Stanley Cup Champion (1899)
Allan Cup Champion (1909)

ECHA First Team All-Star (1905)

Charles Coleman's 1893 to 1926 All-Star Team from The Trail of the Stanley Cup, Vol. 1 (ahead of Cy Denneny, Frank Foyston, Didier Pitre, Gord Roberts, etc)


Offensive Accomplishments:
Goals - 1st(1901), 1st(1903), 1st(1904), 1st(1905), 1st(1908), 1st(1909*), 2nd(1900), 2nd(1902), 2nd(1906), 2nd(1907), 3rd(1899)

Reconstructed Assists: 1st(1904), 1st(1908), 2nd(1906), 3rd(1903), 7th(1907)
(not recorded in 1901, 1902, or 1905)

Rconstructed Points - 1st(1901), 1st(1903), 1st(1904), 1st(1905), 1st(1906), 1st(1907), 1st(1908), 1st(1909*), 2nd(1900), 2nd(1902), 3rd(1899)

Scoring Percentage:
Goals - 240(1901), 157(1903), 142(1904), 137(1905), 100(1900), 100(1902), 100(1906), 100(1907), 100(1908), 92(1899)

Best 6 Seasons: 876

Scoring Dominance:
From 1899 to 1908, Bowie scored 239 goals in 80 games.
Blair Russel, the next closest scorer, had 109 goals in 67 games.


1901 – Bowie scored 24 goals and the next guy only had 10
1903 – Bowie scored 22 goals (next had 14)
1904 – Bowie scored 27 goals (next had 19)
1905 – Bowie scored 26 goals (next had 19)


Frank McGee vs. Russell Bowie (1903-1906)
McGee = 71 goals
Bowie = 106 goals

Ernie Russell vs. Russell Bowie (1905-1908)
Russell = 90 goals
Bowie = 127 goals

Tommy Phillips vs. Russell Bowie (1905-1908)
Phillips = 94 goals
Bowie = 127 goals

The Trail of the Stanley Cup said:

There are many who maintain that Russell Bowie was the greatest centre ice player the game has known. Certainly his amazing total of 234 goals in 80 scheduled league games during ten years of play puts him in a class by himself. An average of almost three goals per game in his career is not likely to be challenged.

During his ten years of play he led the goal scorers five times. Practically every all-tar team listed during that decade and years afterwards had Bowie in the lineup.
​

Ultimate Hockey – Player Biogrphy said:

Like Wayne Gretzky, Bowie was one of the most difficult players of his era to keep track of. Although he was invariably a “marked man,†his agility usually kept him out of harm’s way. A wizard with the ood, he used his skates to shield the rubber as he swung through the enemy line with a deftness that defied description.
​

Ultimate Hockey – In a Flash said:

Russell Bowie kept the puck close to his body and was said to have had brilliant hand-eye coordination. Picture Wayne Gretzky before Wayne Gretzky.

The Montreal Star said:

…known from ocean to ocean, and was even celebrated in the United States, as many judged by the fact they called Hobby Baker the American Russel Bowie.
​

The Montreal Gazette said:

Bowie was recognized as the trickiest player on skates, and the most effective scoring player in the game.
​

The Ottawa Citizen said:

Perhaps one of the greatest players to ever don a pair of skates…. Feared by such greats as Frank McGee, Harvey Pulford, Harry Westwick, Alf and Harry Smith, Billy Gilmour and Arthur Moore of the Ottawa Silver Seven…. Bowie is listed in what is believed to be the first all-star team ever selected in major hockey in 1905.

The Montreal Gazette said:

Bowie picked the puck out of a scuffle and gallantly broke clear of the melee.
​

The Pittsburgh Press said:

Russell Bowie is certainly the king-pin of the Vics, and one of the best stickhandlers who ever put skates on.
​

The Montreal Gazette – January 26th said:

From the Vics’ point of view, there was only one man on the ice. That was Russell Bowie. Speedy, a beautiful stickhandler and a rattling shot, he won the match for the Vics.
​

The Montreal Gazette – March 9th said:

Russell Bowie played and gave an excellent performance in spite of the many difficulties under which he labored.
Allen and Bowie appeared to do the lion’s share of the attack…. Bowie performed several neat feats but was unfortunate and again he was well watched.
The Victorias indulged in several rattling combinations that were good to look at. Bert Strachan, Bowie, and Allen were responsible for most of this style of work and it was done in good order too…
Play had hardly started when Fairbanks handed out a stiff cross-check and went off; Bowie dropping back to cover.

The Montreal Gazette – February 15th said:

Of the 4 forwards mentions (on the 1905 All-Star Team), Bowie is perhaps the slowest skater. But Bowie does not win games with his skates. His head and hands have brought him the reputation he holds as the most effective scoring player in the game.

....

Bowie, in the minds of the rooted who have followed the game for year, is the trickiest hockey player that ever stepped on the ice.

The Montreal Gazette – January 6th said:

The close checking from both sides was one of the features of the game… Bowie is always a closely watched player, but he was given more than the average amount of attention Saturday night. Every time the Irishmen’s goals were threatened there were cries from all parts of the rink to “watch Bowieâ€. But the Vics star was in great form in the first half, beating out ________ for three of the Vics goals and giving the Shamrock goaler close calls on half a dozen other occasions. He was right in the nets at every opportunity, ready for one of those lightning shots that would follow a pass from the side. Besides this, in the first half, he did more than his share of carrying the disc through the Shamrock defense… The checking was very close and a good deal of it was foul work. The Shamrocks used their sticks pretty freely early in the game, and the officials let things go a while without penalties.

…Bowie dashing in on the net, banged in a rebound… Bowie, coming through like a flash, picked it out, and, swinging around to the front of the nets, placed his team in the lead for the final time.

....

Nothing could keep Bowie away from the nets, and his eyes and wrists are apparently as quick as ever. He tired under the close attention he was receiving, however, but even then, when he looked all in, he would break away with a fine show of reserve strength.

....

…and then when the results were assured. Bowie was covered by Frank Glass like a home player on a lacrosse team, and cross-checked and buffeted about every time he came near the Wanderers goal. Once he was provoked to retaliation, with the result that both he and Glass were banished to the box for a five-minute rest.

The Calgary Daily Herald – January 15th said:

I see Russell Bowie is up to his old tricks of making the goal-keeper look like a wooden Indian in front of a cigar store. There was one great player who could have filled in his own figures to the N.H.A. contract if he wanted to participate in the pro league. To my mind he was the greatest player that ever lived. He was fast and brainy. His stick was a magnet to the puck and he walked right in on the defence before he ever thought of shooting. He worried every goal-keeper whether he had the puck or not and gave punishment, never got any and sent hundreds of players to the side by faking an injury. He had a great trick of playing the rubber to the boards and if his check blocked the puck, he would clap his hand to his head or side and drop to one knee. The referee would instantly stop the game and under the impression Bowie had been shortended, chase the other fellow to the penalty box. Aside from his tricks, he had the goods.​

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

First impressions - Russell Bowie and Jiri Holecek are absolutely worth talking about. The rest of the new candidates, not so much.

Bowie vs Gerard for the early era guys could be interesting.

IMO, Bowie is pretty clearly the best amateur era player of all time - the only one of those guys who combines peak and longevity, star power and statistics. But is being the best of that weak generation enough to be added to our list? Maybe. His career did overlap with Cyclone Taylor a couple of years.

Brian Leetch and Norm Ullman look to be the only "must adds" left at this point. So they start the round my top 2, but might not finish there.

 

[MXD]

The biggest must add was very small and is not available for voting.

 

[sr edler]

IMO, Bowie is pretty clearly the best amateur era player of all time - the only one of those guys who combines peak and longevity, star power and statistics. But is being the best of that weak generation enough to be added to our list? Maybe. His career did overlap with Cyclone Taylor a couple of years.

How hard is it to be the best amateur when everyone else goes pro?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

How hard is it to be the best amateur when everyone else goes pro?

I was just using "amateur era" as a name for Bowie's generation; I could have just as easily called it "the pre-1908" or whatever generation, but I didn't feel like picking a specific year.

 

[sr edler]

I'm not anti-Bowie but he does have an ounce of bad team scorer feeling over him.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

VsX summary

Player	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th	8th	9th	10th	7YR	10YR
Martin St. Louis	108	105.3	100	89.5	86.2	79.3	78.3	76.3	72.7	67.3	92.4	86.3
Norm Ullman	100	100	94.4	92.3	85.7	77.8	76.2	75.8	72.5	72	89.5	84.7
Peter Stastny	100	98.3	94.6	86.5	84.7	80.7	74.1	71.3	61.2	56.6	88.4	80.8
Sid Abel	100	100	92.4	90.7	76.8	76.2	75	73.3	58.3	14.8	87.3	75.8
Jarome Iginla	106.7	92.5	86.9	83.9	82.5	80.9	74	70.1	69.1	68.6	86.7	81.5
Toe Blake	106.8	85.9	83.7	83.3	83.3	81.9	79.4	75	72.7	62.1	86.3	81.4
Pavel Bure	100.0	98.9	95.8	89.2	76.7	74.3	61.4	51.7	50.5	28.8	85.2	72.7
Eric Lindros	100	95.8	86.9	81.1	80.8	78	72.5	62.8	51	50.7	85	76
Erik Karlsson	92.1	85.1	80.4	79.8	76.7	60.8	45.5	24.6	23.9		74.3	56.9
Dave Keon	84.4	76.9	74.3	72.6	72.1	70.2	69.2	69.1	60.2	58.2	74.3	70.7
Brian Leetch	87.9	82.3	76.5	71.6	70.8	65.8	61.1	58.6	58.6	54.9	73.7	68.8
Mark Howe	67.2	58.2	54	53.7	48.1	47.3	43.8	42.2	36.1	27.3	53.2	47.8
Serge Savard	49.6	40	39.5	38.5	37.5	36	29	28.4	19.8	17.9	38.6	33.6

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Pavel Bure is the only new candidate on this list - the other four are goalies and/or spent their career outside of the NHL.

For those curious, there are still two more players with 7-year scores of 90+ who aren't up for voting - Sweeney Schriner and Adam Oates.

Carried forward from last round - Two listed players are active - Kane and Karlsson. Kane is having an excellent season (currently 3rd in scoring) and if he holds off, his 7-year and 10-year scores would jump to approximate 92 and 86 respectively. Karlsson isn't having a great year by his standards, and his 7-year score won't change, but his 10-year score should increase to about 61. (Pretty amazing that he already matches Leetch's 7-yr score, though the American has him beat on longevity and playoffs).

A few comments building off this table, using VsX as a proxy for "regular season offense."

Martin St Louis - best regular season offensive stats left. His stats overrate him a little bit because he played in a situation where it was easier to put up good numbers, and he tended to bleed goals-against in the regular season. Played with star centers, but clearly made them better. Worth a look.

Norm Ullman - second best regular season numbers AND a reputation as a good (not great) two-way guy? (Elite forechecker though). That previous sentence alone is why he enters the round my top forward. Playoff R-on ratio is pretty bad, but he did have to carry weak linemates most of his career. As @overpass said, lines with 2 star players on them generally put up much better ratios than lines with just 1 star. His playoff scoring has some very high highs, as well as some low lows. In 1968, Punch Imlach said that Norm Ullman was the best overall player he had coached over the last 10 years. As said above - enters this round as my top forward.

Peter Stastny - more or less an offense-only guy (though he did bring some grit). IMO, Abel, Iginla, and Blake brought enough else to the table to more than make up for Stastny's slight offensive edge. Too many guys better than him to seriously consider him.

Sid Abel - Near-elite leader and cornerman. Decent defensive player, probably not as celebrated defensively as Ullman or Blake. Missed a few years due to the war, but that is more than made up for by the fact that 4 of his 5 best seasons were with the Production Line. For the first few years of the Production Line, Abel more than held his own (winning a Hart Trophy as the "glue" of the line between young Lindsay and Howe), but seemed to be more or less carried by his linemates for the last year or two the line was together. Worth a look.

Jarome Iginla - Another near-elite leader and cornerman. Spent most of his career carrying weak linemates in the stronger defensive Conference. His regular season R-on/R-off ratios are off the charts - which shows him to be a pretty big difference-maker. Ranked (slightly) over St. Louis in the HOH Top wingers project. Definitely worth a look.

Toe Blake - Very good at everything, master of nothing type player. Perhaps the best defensive reputation here, other than Keon. His 1938-39 regular season might be the best season by any player available - winning the Art Ross and Hart with Paul Haynes and aging Johnny Gagnon on his line. But he never really had another season close to that again, despite later playing with Elmer Lach and Maurice Richard. I like Blake a lot, but with so much of his value tied into that one season, I think I like Iginla and Abel more.

Pavel Bure - Offense is average among the candidates now, and he looks like the weakest guy this round without the puck too. Is there any doubt Lindros should rank higher? (Lindros' 10 year VsX is actually quite a bit better than Bure's too). Great player, but easy NR for now.

Eric Lindros - Likely the best "per game" player here. Metrics like VsX are based off full-seasons, which brutalizes someone like Lindros (maybe correct, maybe not). Elite physical player, decent defensively, great R-on/R-off ratios in the regular season. I think Lindros is worth a look, but I'm not sure I end up voting for him.

Dave Keon - His offense (particularly his assist numbers) is just so bad for a top 100 player, and we have a primary source from the 1960s criticizing Keon's ability to pass to his left (which would seem to at least partly explain his low assist totals). I'd be more willing to forgive his lack of offense if he ever got significant Hart recognition, but he didn't. The pluses: all-time great defensive player, with great ratios in the playoffs and a Conn Smythe to his name. FWIW: 7 year VsX scores: Kopitar 79.2, Keon 74.3, Toews 72.7.

________________

VsX doesn't really tell us anything we didn't know about the defensemen - Leetch and Karlsson are/were elite offensively, Howe was pretty good, Savard was pretty bad offensively.

 

[Nick Hansen]

Names that were on the list last time but haven't shown up yet:

Ron Francis and Busher Jackson.

 

[MXD]

Names that were on the list last time but haven't shown up yet:

Ron Francis and Busher Jackson.

Jackson probably shoul've shown up, considering Bure is up, but he appears to be otherwise a notch below Blake, MSL and Iginla. We have 6 players left to rank. So... no big deal, wouldn't have been voted in.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

We've now had 114 players come up for discussion (94 who have been voted in, and 20 who are up this round). Of those 114, 110 were on my initial list.

Players who are now up, who weren't on my list (alphabetical order) - Bowie, Bure, Gerard, Holocek.

Players who I included, who aren't yet up (alphabetical order) - Bucyk, Delvecchio, Gilmour, Lapointe, Langway, Maltsev, Niedermayer, Oates, Quackenbush, Smith.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Here's a repost of my posts on Holecek during the HOH Top Goaltenders and HOH Top Non-NHL Europeans projects:

Voters who place high value on peak and prime and less value on longevity might want to give Jiri Holecek a serious look:

Holecek didn't do much outside the eight season stretch from 1971 to 1978, but what an eight years it was!

When Holecek was the primary starter for Czechoslovakia (1971-1978), they performed almost as well as the (on paper) superior USSR team in the World Championships

USSR: 5 golds, 2 silvers, 1 bronze
CSSR: 3 golds, 4 silvers, 1 bronze
Sweden: 0 golds, 2 silvers, 5 bronze
Canada: 0 goals, 0 silvers, 1 bronze

Canada didn't compete in the WCs for the majority of this time frame, in protest over the then-prohibition on professional players.

Holecek was the dominant Czechoslovakian goalie during this high point of Czechoslovak hockey, based on awards voting

Via Sanf, TIP magazine considered Holecek the best goalie in the domestic league for 7 of 8 years. Holecek was selected the All-Star goalie in the Extraliga in 1971, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975, and 1976. Dzurilla was selected the All-Star goalie in the Extraliga in 1969, 1970, and 1977: Extraliga :: Statshockey. All Star Teams were replaced by a "best goalie" awarded by TIP magainze after 1977. Holecek was selected best goalie in 1978, his final year on the national team. TOP :: Statshockey.

Holecek led all goalies in Golden Stick voting for the best player in Czechoslovakia 6 of 8 seasons, including 1 win and 2 2nd place finishes to Vladimir Martinec, often considered the 2nd best Czech forward after Jagr. Via TheoKritos, Here are all the goalies who placed in Golden Stick voting during this time frame:
1969: 5 Dzurilla, 14 Miroslav Lacký, 15 Miroslav Termer.
1970: 4 Dzurilla, 12 Holeček, 13 Lacký, 16 Pavel Wohl.
1971: 5 Holeček, 12 Dzurilla, 15 JiřÃ Crha, 17 VladimÃr Nadrchal, 21 Marcel Sakač.
1972: 3 Dzurilla, 5 Holeček, 25 Nadrchal, 26 Crha, 28 Jiřà KralÃk and Miroslav Krása, 34 Sakač, 36 Termer.
1973: 5 Holeček, 11 Crha, 22 Sakač, 29 Krása, 39 Wohl.
1974: 1 Holeček, 15 Crha, 22 Pavol Svitana, 31 Dzurilla, 33 Termer, 39 Krása, 41 Miroslav Kapoun.
1975: 2 Holeček, 14 Crha.
1976: 2 Holeček, 9 Dzurilla, 20 Svitana, 23 Crha, 30 Sakač.
1977: 6 Dzurilla, 8 Holeček, 17 KralÃk, 23 Crha, 29 Sakač, 32 Svitana.
1978: 2 Holeček, 15 Dzurilla, 17 KralÃk, 19 Crha, 37 Ivan Podešva, 42 Petr Ševela, 46 Milan KolÃsek.

Holecek, not Tretiak, was considered the best goalie in Europe in the mid 1970s

World Championship All Star Teams

The World Championships of Ice Hockey at the time featured all the best players in Europe and were held every year. Therefore, they are the largest sample size of competition against Europe as a whole. In the 1970s, when they were both at their peak's, Jiri Holecek generally outperformed Tretiak at the World Championships

Tretiak (USSR)
•World Championships Best Goalie (1974, 1979, 1983)
•World Championships All Star (1975, 1979, 1983)

Jiri Holecek (Czech)
World Championships Best Goalie (1971, 1973, 1975, 1976, 1978)
•World Championships All Star (1971, 1972, 1973, 1976, 1978)

Tretiak and Holecek overlapped as starters for their national teams from 1972-1978. In that 7 years, Holecek was named best goalie 4 times, and Tretiak just once.

Anecdotes

Anecdotally, Holecek (not Tretiak) was considered the best goalie in Europe, heading into the 1976 Canada Cup. From wikipedia's entry on the 1976 Canada Cup (citing Joe Pelletier's book):

The Czechoslovakian team was predicted to face Canada in the final by most experts as they brought the same team that won the 1976 World Championship a few months prior. Their goaltender, JiřÃ Holeček, was considered the best in the world outside the NHL

We all know Holecek didn't play well against Canada in the Canada Cup, but the point is that as Tretiak was in the midst of winning his third consecutive "Soviet Player of the Year" award (which he won in 1974, 1975, 1976, 1982, and 1983), the general feeling was that he was not the best goalie in Europe.

An IIHF biography of Tretiak celebrating his 60th birthday indicates that there was a widely held view that Holecek and even Vladimir Dzurilla were better goalies, and that Tretiak wasn't universally considered the best goalie in Europe until his dominant performance in the 1981 Canada Cup:

The somewhat strange thing is that Tretiak was judged differently in Europe and in North America for many years of his career.

Due to his sensational performance in the 1972 Summit Series, Tretiak immediately became a super-hero in Canada and the perception of him as the superior goaltender from Europe – and thus by far the best European at that position – just grew with the 1975 New Year’s Eve game and the 1981 Canada Cup rout.

But back in Europe, during the ‘70s, the European hockey community generally considered the Czechoslovaks Vladimir Dzurilla and Jiri Holecek as stronger goaltenders than Tretiak. And quite often whenever Czechoslovakia and the Soviet Union met in many of their epic World Championship games in the 1970s, the Czechoslovaks came up on top in their head-to-head games, although the Soviet team won the gold nine times out of ten.

But it was the 1981 Canada Cup final – and the sensational 8-1 score which would have been something totally different had the CCCP team had a human in net – that cemented Tretiak’s position as not only the best in Europe, but the best in the world.

Sadly, and due to the totalitarian regime of that era, Tretiak played for only three more years before he decided to quit.

http://www.iihf.com/nc/home-of-hock...pics/news-singleview-olympics/recap/6711.html[/QUOTE]

Ranking Holecek

I had Holecek 10th (edit: among goalies) on my submitted list, one spot over Tretiak. Since then, I've re-examined that line of thinking. As dominant as Holecek was during his 8 year stretch (from the ages of 27-35), he did take quite some time to hit his stride and didn't do all that much of note outside those 8 years. I also (possibly unfairly) dinged Tretiak on my original list for blowing a couple of high profile tournaments, but looking at the record closely, nobody could really point to a tournament that he blew other than the 1980 Miracle on Ice Olympics, and that was just one tournament. Holecek appears to have blown the 1972 Olympics and the 1976 Canada Cup in between his World Championship brilliance.

That said, I think there is very good reason to suspect that from 1971-1978, Holecek was better on average than Tretiak - that certainly seems to be the opinion of people who watched both of them extensively. I'm fine with ranking Tretiak over Holecek after adding in what Tretiak did from 1979-1983, but I really don't feel comfortable ranking Holecek that far behind Tretiak.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Patent was always above average. He had very good save percentagpe all the time. Not only that, he faced a ton of power plays so that likely underrates him. However, he did only have two seasons worthy of this list.

Bernie Parent can't make a great longevity case. But he can make a stellar peak case.

In 1974 Parent shared a Vezina with Tony O. The Flyers had the most PP opportunities against (422). Esposito's Chicago Blackhawks had the least (208). Flyer penalties made life difficult for their goalie. Parent maintained league leads in GAA and save percentage. Given the degree of difficulty of having a difficult high PK situation, Parent may have knocked more GA off the board during his short prime than Esposito did over his very long one.

EDIT: @seventieslord beat me to it. I blame Canadian Club

Good points about Parent and killing so many penalties.

My query as to whether or not Parent was an above average goalie for more than a few seasons was borne out of Philadelphia/Toronto playing hot potato with him in the early 70's. Were there extenuating circumstances surrounding his trade to the Leafs in 1971? Seems the Flyers decided Doug Favell was their guy and flipped Bernie in a three-way trade that brought them the much older Bruce Gamble and rookie pro Rick MacLeish. Was MacLeish that highly touted at the time?

Toronto trading him back to the Flyers a couple years later in a draft picks/futures trade makes sense to a point, since he was in the WHA at the time.

After the two legendary Cup winning years, injuries unfortunately derailed his career and he only played a couple more full seasons really while posting some fairly forgettable playoff numbers.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Now that playoff chokers like Joe Thornton are part of the list, I hope the players who contributed to multiple championships will have their turn.

Eddie Gerard, Serge Savard and Dave Keon will likely form my Top 3.All key players to dynasties.

I'm extremely tempted to put Russell Bowie inside my Top 5 for the sake of historical completeness; his generation paved the way.

Somewhat playing Devil's advocate here, but was Savard more key to his dynasty than Abel was to his? I realize that Abel wasn't actually there for the whole dynasty, but he was given a lot of credit for finally getting Detroit over the hump and helping them beat Toronto (who had Detroit's number in the late 1940s).

 

[Canadiens1958]

Norm Ullman - second best regular season numbers AND a reputation as a good (not great) two-way guy? (Elite forechecker though). That previous sentence alone is why he enters the round my top forward. Playoff R-on ratio is pretty bad, but he did have to carry weak linemates most of his career. As @overpass said, lines with 2 star players on them generally put up much better ratios than lines with just 1 star. His playoff scoring has some very high highs, as well as some low lows. In 1968, Punch Imlach said that Norm Ullman was the best overall player he had coached over the last 10 years. As said above - enters this round as my top forward.

Down to good, from great. 1965 Game 7 semi-final, Chicago at Detroit. Detroit has the last line change.

Watch the first ten minutes of the video:



Start of the game, Hull line vs Howe line but ......

Then you have Ullman against Mikita in the Detroit zone. Puck stays in the Detroit zone, Ullman losing two draws to Mikita cleanly. Chicago almost scores.

Abel does the obvious, throws out a makeshift line, Lindsay, Murray Hall, Macgregor. Play continues for a few minutes. Faceoff to the right of the Chicago. Ullman line is out. Reay sends out the Hull line. Abel reacts quickly, pulls the Ullman line. Does he send the Howe line out? No Abel uses the makeshift line from earlier in the game.

Guess Abel did not consider Ullman to be an elite forechecker in his 10th NHL season.

 

[sr edler]

I realize that Abel wasn't actually there for the whole dynasty, but he was given a lot of credit for finally getting Detroit over the hump and helping them beat Toronto (who had Detroit's number in the late 1940s).

Butch Goring also got a lot of credit for finally helping the Islanders over the hump.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Great posts on Bowie, @ted1971

I had Bowie really high on my Round 1 list. In fact, probably too high. But I still like him as a candidate in this round for much of the reasons you outline. He dominated his peers in the scoring race to utterly obscene levels. Gretzky-like in some instances.

There's one real issue I've come to realize though over the months of research in this project though; I believe I might have mentioned it in passing back in the Taylor or Lalonde debates. And that is that an awful lot of great players were in the IHL (American-based professional league) smack in the middle of Bowie's career. And even the great Ottawa team jumped to a different league for a season (or two maybe? I'll go back and check) circa 1906.

There's sort of this assumption that the fore-runner leagues to the NHA/NHL were their equivalent. It's true in most years, but there's that stretch from 1905-1907 where the IHL appears way stronger on paper. And there were great players in the Manitoba league and the short-lived Federal and Ontario leagues around that time as well. So even though the ECHA/ECAHA controlled the Stanley Cup, and is therefore the more famous league, there are probably two or three seasons where it was WHA-quality in terms of how it related to the IHL.

I'll try to put a post together this week to give us a a clearer picture of just who exactly Bowie was competing against on a year-to-year basis.

 

[overpass]

Not sure if anyone had mentioned that Toe Blake had a sneaky good playoff record.

From 1938-1943 combined he was the only NHL player over a point per game in the playoffs. Blake did it Theo Fleury-style, in first round losses.

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?agg...&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,10&sort=pointsPerGame

In 1944, Blake led all players in playoff scoring while playing very strong all-around hockey and probably would have won the Conn Smythe trophy. Asterisk for war year.

In 1946, with the war over and all players back, Blake led all players in playoff goals scored.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Not sure if anyone had mentioned that Toe Blake had a sneaky good playoff record.

From 1938-1943 combined he was the only NHL player over a point per game in the playoffs. Blake did it Theo Fleury-style, in first round losses.

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?agg...&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,10&sort=pointsPerGame

In 1944, Blake led all players in playoff scoring while playing very strong all-around hockey and probably would have won the Conn Smythe trophy. Asterisk for war year.

In 1946, with the war over and all players back, Blake led all players in playoff goals scored.

1944 and 1946 Blake also scored the Cup winning goal each year.

 

[wetcoast]

Now that playoff chokers like Joe Thornton are part of the list, I hope the players who contributed to multiple championships will have their turn.

Eddie Gerard, Serge Savard and Dave Keon will likely form my Top 3.All key players to dynasties.

I'm extremely tempted to put Russell Bowie inside my Top 5 for the sake of historical completeness; his generation paved the way.

I know that you aren't cup counting per say but the Habs won a SC without Savard then missed the playoffs with him.

Savard has a really good playoff resume it is it even the best playoff resume for a Dman this round?

 

[sr edler]

He dominated his peers in the scoring race to utterly obscene levels.

This is only true regarding 1 season, the 00–01 CAHL (perhaps one and a half season if you choose another description). There were certainly guys who could match him other years, including non-HHOFers like Harry Smith and Herb Jordan.

There's one real issue I've come to realize though over the months of research in this project though; I believe I might have mentioned it in passing back in the Taylor or Lalonde debates. And that is that an awful lot of great players were in the IHL (American-based professional league) smack in the middle of Bowie's career. And even the great Ottawa team jumped to a different league for a season (or two maybe? I'll go back and check) circa 1906.

There's sort of this assumption that the fore-runner leagues to the NHA/NHL were their equivalent. It's true in most years, but there's that stretch from 1905-1907 where the IHL appears way stronger on paper. And there were great players in the Manitoba league and the short-lived Federal and Ontario leagues around that time as well. So even though the ECHA/ECAHA controlled the Stanley Cup, and is therefore the more famous league, there are probably two or three seasons where it was WHA-quality in terms of how it related to the IHL.

This is a good summarization though.

 

[ted2019]

We've now had 114 players come up for discussion (94 who have been voted in, and 20 who are up this round). Of those 114, 110 were on my initial list.

Players who are now up, who weren't on my list (alphabetical order) - Bowie, Bure, Gerard, Holocek.

Players who I included, who aren't yet up (alphabetical order) - Bucyk, Delvecchio, Gilmour, Lapointe, Langway, Maltsev, Niedermayer, Oates, Quackenbush, Smith.

I have had 6 players so far who haven't come up yet. McGee, Luongo , Langway, Moose Johnson , Busher, Ching Johnson

 

[sr edler]

Firsov's on the list. Cleghorn too, unless you mean Odie Cleghorn.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

My highest unlisted players are Maltsev, Martinec, and Lundqvist.

 

[Canadiens1958]

My highest player who hasn't come up yet is Anatoli Firsov.
I have had 8 players so far who haven't come up yet. Firsov, Cleghorn, McGee, Luongo , Langway, Moose Johnson , Busher, Ching Johnson

Firsov was named many rounds ago as was Sprague Cleghorn, 50 to 75 range, unless you meant Odie.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Somewhat playing Devil's advocate here, but was Savard more key to his dynasty than Abel was to his? I realize that Abel wasn't actually there for the whole dynasty, but he was given a lot of credit for finally getting Detroit over the hump and helping them beat Toronto (who had Detroit's number in the late 1940s).

I don't know.I probably underrated Abel last round, and am open to bump him up now to make amend.

Savard contributed to SCs outside the dynasty, winning the Smythe in 1969.As a whole, I think his playoff legacy is greater than Abel's.

The "dynasty factor" was more a manner of speech than anything, meaning I strongly prefer players with solid playoff resumes for the few spots left on the list.Abel satisfies this criteria too.