Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 2

The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
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Speaking of Shore being "criticized for his defensive play" - can someone post these instances? If they are just the 2-3 quotes about how Seibert was better defensively/tougher, or how Hitchman was even better than him, those are fairly weak overall.

Ray Bourque was outstanding defensively, but you could have said "he's not as good as Mike Ramsey defensively" and that would have been true. Mark Howe was also very good, but you could have said "Brad McCrimmon stays back and watches the zone while Howe goes off on one of his many rushes" and that would have also been true.
That was based off of some reading I was doing during the ATD, which maybe I shouldn't have carried into here without support. I should rephrase anyway because I don't know if it was accurate.
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
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Lake Memphremagog, QC.
I may not get time to flesh these out but I want to make a couple of points about Shore.

Many criticisms of his defensive play are from his early career. Late career Shore was winning Hart trophies for his defensive play. Maybe similar to a Scott Stevens where the career narrative and the timing is important to get right.

Playoffs—during Shore’s peak in the early to mid 30s the Bruins were feeing the pinch of the Depression and didn’t spend on depth. Lack of depth was their downfall in the playoffs with Shore having to play huge minutes.

Also, many of the common measure used to rate players we didn’t see, especially all star and trophy voting, aren’t really able to measure the height of a player’s peak. Part of the case for Shore was that he was the greatest defenceman before Bobby Orr. Not just that he was the best defenceman in X number of seasons. For example, in 1979, Jim Coleman gave his list of top 10 players. He included Eddie Shore and not Doug Harvey, and wrote of Bobby Orr: “Defensively he was no Eddie Shore, but who was?” So if you are going to rate Doug Harvey and Ray Bourque above Shore because you count the awards and then subtract for perceived negatives...the awards may not tell the whole story.

Double edged sword. Thirties NHL Salary Cap. Eddie Shore held-out.

Settled but as a result Bruins could not afford depth, eventually moving players that helped Detroit.
 

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
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So I don't know how he's defining star power here, and why the only goalie to win the Hart twice apparently doesn't have it.

Because as far as I'm concerned Jagr was seen as the "overall" best player in the world in that vague timeframe of late 90s early 00s.I just don't buy that Hasek had as much star power compared to Béliveau, Hull, Richard, Shore, Morenz and Crosby.
 

The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
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wait, which ATD were you in? Have you changed your handle?
I wasn't in it I was just lurking it. The one from this summer. And like I said it probably wasn't accurate - I was over-relying on relative rankings.

Shore's just interesting to me as a character though. The Boston teams were good, but disappointed in the playoffs. I like the chart someone posted earlier (was it you?) that contextualized that a bit, but I guess in my head I'm thinking "you have the best player on the best team and you're not winning in the playoffs and his numbers aren't looking super great in that context - how much of the blame?"

I think I said (and I think it's fair) that even the "bad" playoff performers in this group have a few runs that they can put up and say "see he showed up *this* time", but we're in a list where we have Patrick Roy, Maurice Richard, and Jean Beliveau, so one or two runs just means you belong in the group, not that you have separated yourself from the group.
 

The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
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Because as far as I'm concerned Jagr was seen as the "overall" best player in the world in that vague timeframe of late 90s early 00s.I just don't buy that Hasek had as much star power compared to Béliveau, Hull, Richard, Shore, Morenz and Crosby.
Was Beliveau ever seen as the best player in the world? I don't think so. And Richard was seen as the best player in the world during a period known for its dearth of overall talent, and then quickly was shunted behind Howe.

Let's imagine a world where Lemieux was born four years earlier, so his entire career overlaps with Gretzky's prime. The fact that he's never been considered the best in the world during that frame mean he lacks star power?

It's an absurd metric to hang your hat on. For one, considering Hasek won two Harts during the time frame (while Jagr only won one), which makes me question your conclusion that he wasn't considered "the best player in the world" (especially noting positional biases in that sort of surface-level analysis).

And second - who cares? WHY is this the metric you're basing your rankings on when it has a) national bias, b) media market bias, and c) factors in non-hockey criteria? Why isn't Lafleur on this list yet? That beer commercial was hilarious! He should be top 5 if we're going on star power.
 

Tuna Tatarrrrrr

Here Is The Legendary Rat Of HFBoards! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Jun 13, 2012
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And here - I'm not quite sure what this means. And I want to. Because it looks like this is *the main factor* which sets Harvey behind Richard and JB.

I'm not saying these rankings are an exact science here, but I want a discussion that you can participate in and not just point out funeral attendance numbers as a metric for ranking players.
I don't know for Béliveau but I give you one example for Richard.

The Laval Rocket is the Montreal Canadiens' affiliate team. With over 54,000 entries received, the "Rocket" name, which is a tribute to Canadiens' legend Maurice "Rocket" Richard, got a 51% majority of the fan votes. The two runner-ups were Patriotes with 24% of votes and the Rapides with 25% of votes. As a further tribute to Maurice "Rocket" Richard, patches with the number 9 and a stylized flame appear on each of the sleeves of the Laval Rocket's jerseys. Each sleeve also has a shield patch with the word "Le Rocket" found inside.

No Montreal Canadiens player will ever have as more star power as Rocket Richard.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,672
16,395
I don't know for Béliveau but I give you one example for Richard.

The Laval Rocket is the Montreal Canadiens' affiliate team. With over 54,000 entries received, the "Rocket" name, which is a tribute to Canadiens' legend Maurice "Rocket" Richard, got a 51% majority of the fan votes. The two runner-ups were Patriotes with 24% of votes and the Rapides with 25% of votes. As a further tribute to Maurice "Rocket" Richard, patches with the number 9 and a stylized flame appear on each of the sleeves of the Laval Rocket's jerseys. Each sleeve also has a shield patch with the word "Le Rocket" found inside.

No Montreal Canadiens player will ever have as more star power as Rocket Richard.

Le Gros Bill de Laval sounds like a terrible night at the Fuzzy in the mid-90ies, hence a terrible team name.
 
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VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
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Star Power
... three tiers (not a list!) for star power:

Doug Harvey
Patrick Roy

Dominik Hasek
Ray Bourque
Reverse these two tiers!

At the very least, Hasek had a 5+ year peak where he was as much a superstar as anyone.

And,... Harvey is not a star in most hockey history books and is often the third or fourth player on his own team mentioned.

In terms of "STAR POWER" his didn't seem to shine as bright as either goaltender. Hasek & Roy each were on the cover of Sports Illustrated TWICE.
 
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Tuna Tatarrrrrr

Here Is The Legendary Rat Of HFBoards! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Jun 13, 2012
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Le Gros Bill de Laval sounds like a terrible night at the Fuzzy in the mid-90ies, hence a terrible team name.
Whatever... Even Béliveau didn't dethrone Rocket Richard as the greatest Montreal Canadiens of all time.
 
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BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
30,844
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Reverse these two tiers!

At the very least, Hasek had a 5+ year peak where he was as much a superstar as anyone.

And,... Harvey is not a star in most hockey history books and is often the third or fourth player on his own team mentioned.

In terms of "STAR POWER" his didn't seem to shine as bright as either goaltender. Hasek & Roy each were on the cover of Sports Illustrated TWICE.

At least you understood the concept of star power.I'm fine with debating my tiers, especially the last two ones.

Do you agree with me that the first six guys deserves to be higher than the last four in terms of star power?
 

Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
29,206
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Connecticut
Some initial thoughts...

Shore seems like the odd one out here. The preliminary threads really made me rethink him... his main selling points are his 4 Harts being more than any other defenseman, but that stat doesn't seem nearly as impressive after reading about voting standards at the time, team success, contemporary opinion, etc.

Richard will also need convincing for me, I'm always skeptical of players whose legend seems to outweigh their accomplishments.

I had Beliveau/Hull/Harvey/Crosby as the next four in that order on my list. Maybe Morenz has the best chance of moving into that top 4? There was a lot of revisionist thinking regarding him in the preliminary threads but it will be interesting to dive deeper into that now that more discussion can be had on him. He could move way up or way down for me.

Its not just more than any other defenseman. Its more than all but 2 other guys, and they already went 1 and 2.
 

The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
48,610
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Knock it off with the derisive tone would you? We got it the first time, you think it's an absurd metric.The readers will also get it.No need to derail the thread completely and mock people who doesn't think like you.
To the people relying on "Star Power" - define it and justify it as an objective metric please.

Do that part first.
 

Nick Hansen

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
3,119
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Star power to whom? Out of these guys I think Hasek is at the top...He's very well known in hockey countries as a great goaltender. Almost a meme...Hasek's the best goaltender ever. B and R not so much...
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,134
6,429
Do you agree with me that the first six guys deserves to be higher than the last four in terms of star power?
I agree with the criticisms of the metric: it's too much about off-ice considerations and it is a nebulous substitute of opinion, personal or public.
 

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