Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 2

[Tuna Tatarrrrrr]

Richard - Most of his dominance came in a league that was roughly AHL-quality. Lots of all-stars, but outside of Howe there wasn't much in the way of competition for those all-stars.

 

[MXD]

Yes we should. Neither Roy nor Hasek are worthy of top 5 All Time goalie status let alone top 5 overall.

Both required managed RS starts and took longer than most to claim #1 status with an NHL team.

Patrick Roy had more PO minutes than any of this goalie teammate had RS minutes in 1986...

 

[DannyGallivan]

Funny, but to be fair the point of the post was to purposely play devil's advocate.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

(Apropos Harvey)- Superb in transition. Nailed it.

Thought I'd leave this here, as long as we're talking about Defensemen- I noticed that after Eddie Shore passed the age of 30, his PiMs did go down, which (to me) suggests something of a "wise-up" factor. Still- you can't take away all those penalties before that time from our reckoning. I don't think I'm saying anything TOO controversial by arguing "not just yet" for Shore.

I see that when the Pooh-Bahs got together with the Hall of Fame to pass out "Retro-Smythes," Harvey was shut out. Generally, I think that "Retro-Smythes" are less reliable than real Smythes. [In a lot of cases, that's saying something.] I think they may have miscued on one or more of these.

Harvey must have had something to do with the end of all-you-can-eat power plays, right?! And yet, I see seasons before and after that time when Doug Harvey goes triple-digits into PiMs, himself. I have some speculative hypotheses about that- but I'll stand by for further edification.

Very, very rare is the multiple-Cup winner franchise that doesn't have an upper-level, HoF-caliber, Norris tier shutdown Defenseman. And when teams do, they're frequently the most important player in the "must win" games.

 

[bobholly39]

Yes we should. Neither Roy nor Hasek are worthy of top 5 All Time goalie status let alone top 5 overall.

Both required managed RS starts and took longer than most to claim #1 status with an NHL team.

Agreed.

On an unrelated note - Gretzky isn't worthy of top 6 ranking overall, either.

 

[Tuna Tatarrrrrr]

Funny, but to be fair the point of the post was to purposely play devil's advocate.

Nah clearly this guy is just trying to decrease the greatness of the Rocket and doesn't understand obviously why he is one of the greatest player in the history not only because he was a Québécois.

 

[Michael Farkas]

We don't knock Crosby for time not played

This is obviously not the case. He is 100% being knocked for that. Every post about him in any thread on HoH has done that essentially.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Buffalo won nine playoff series in 8 playoff years with Hasek (victories under three different coaches: Muckler, Nolan, Ruff) and when he left the Sabres, the highly successful team and coach Ruff missed the playoffs for three years and everyone knew it was because of Hasek.

Quebec moving to Colorado brought changes, like adding Claude Lemieux and Patrick Roy to a team already heralded as a contender that underperformed expectations (the cup favorite when in Quebec before the lockout). Roy rather than Fiset in net was huge, but not as pivotal as Hasek's role in Buffalo.

While true, they also lost 8 series.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Shirley You Can't Be Serious.

No, not serious. Because I'm not taking goalie head to head matchups of anything more than trivia.

But, yes I am curious as to what that answer is because then maybe we'll never have to hear about that nonsense again. And don't call me Shirley...

 

[MXD]

Nah this guy is just trying to decrease the greatness of the Rocket and doesn't understand obviously why he is one of the greatest player in the history not only because he was a Québécois.

... That was the whole point of this post.
About your meme :
- Would've been a great use
- If Mr. Savage would've been dead serious instead of purposefully looking to point out flaws
- We try to stick to words around here.

 

[DannyGallivan]

And don't call me Shirley...

saw that comin'.

 

[The Macho King]

Anyway - I have to submit my list today since I'm probably out of town the next couple of days. Any last major points we haven't covered?

 

[ContrarianGoaltender]

@BM67 Can we get Hasek head to head vs. Brodeur please? I want to know if I should be holding off voting for any goalies until Brodeur comes around...

Why, is Jacques Plante not eligible for this list or something?

on the other hand, nobody is talking about career games played here. Save percentage, as valuable and helpful as it may be, is still a rate statistic. And being able to maintain a rate statistic over a larger sample is more impressive. That's why something like gsaa can be helpful, because it takes into consideration save percentage and how long they did it for. Hasek should be looked at more critically due to his relatively low season by season games played totals.

Games Played 1994-2002:
1. Brodeur, 588
2. Roy, 548
3. Joseph, 533
4. Hasek, 528
5. Belfour, 515

I mean, if your standard is everything below Martin Brodeur is relatively low, then fine. But are you sure you are applying the same standard to all goalies and you aren't over-correcting for Hasek's allegedly low games played numbers? Patrick Roy was 3rd in GP from 1988-1992 during his statistical peak at a time when there weren't any Martin Brodeurs in the league, I don't really see why Hasek finishing fourth over a nine season stretch is any less remarkable.

Hasek's career games played numbers are low because he has 53 GP before his age 29 season, not because he played a low number of games when he was a starting goalie.

Yes we should. Neither Roy nor Hasek are worthy of top 5 All Time goalie status let alone top 5 overall.

Both required managed RS starts and took longer than most to claim #1 status with an NHL team.

I'm not sure at all that Roy required managed RS starts, but he did mostly have managed starts throughout his career with the exception of 1992-1995 and 1998 (65 GP in an Olympic year). Roy finished in the top 6 in minutes played only three times in his career, once during a lockout-shortened season and once when had 54 GP.

Dominik Hasek, notably, did not have managed starts at all during his prime, which makes sense because his teams needed all the help they could get. He did miss time due to injury, but nobody plans injuries. When Hasek was available to play, he played in 89% of his team's games from when he took over the starting job in 1994 to his first retirement in 2002. For the sake of comparison, in Martin Brodeur's best nine season stretch he played in 90% of his team's games. If you take the best nine seasons from Patrick Roy's entire career, he played in 79% of his team's games. I think it was absolutely smart of Roy's teams to manage his starts, keeping him healthy and rested for the playoffs, but not every goalie had that luxury.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Roy and Hasek also probably played about half as many back to back games as Brodeur...and Brodeur was successful at them. Something most current goalies cannot achieve...

 

[quoipourquoi]

Buffalo won nine playoff series in 8 playoff years with Hasek

I count six.

Grant Fuhr played the majority in the 1993 victory over Boston. Steve Shields had to be their playoff goalie in 1997 and took the series over Ottawa. Then two series in 1998, three series in 1999, and one series in 2001.

 

[Sentinel]

But the Hedberg comparison challenges your assumption that the head-to-head record of goaltenders tells us who was better.

When two goalies are as close as Dom and Roy, I believe this is the way to go. In World Cup of Soccer it's a tiebreaker.

 

[The Macho King]

When two goalies are as close as Dom and Roy, I believe this is the way to go. In World Cup of Soccer it's a tiebreaker.

Pretty sure you're alone on ranking this as an important metric (or even one worth quantifying at all). Goalies don't play each other. It's an asinine way to rank a position who spend the entire game 180 feet apart.

 

[Sentinel]

I don't think Hasek was that far and away better than Jagr in the DPE.

I don't think he was "far and away" better. But he was better, more identifiable, and won more Harts.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Ohhh, gimme dem Brodeur h2h numbers. He's the only goalie I have in my top 20 besides Roy.

Fight me irl

 

[Canadiens1958]

A valid point has been raised about Moore and Geoffrion without Harvey and Maurice Richard. Might as well throw in Jean Beliveau.

Dickie Moore suffered an off-season knee injury at Dickie Moore Rentals.

Bernie Geoffrion, had 15 points in the first 10 games of the 1961-62 season playing on a line with Backstrom and Marshall. Beliveau was injured. Maurice Richard and Harvey were gone.

Rest of his career with the Canadiens was down hill. Minor injuries, disputes with officials including a suspension.

 

[Sentinel]

Pretty sure you're alone on ranking this as an important metric (or even one worth quantifying at all). Goalies don't play each other. It's an asinine way to rank a position who spend the entire game 180 feet apart.

"Wins" is an accepted metric for goalies, even though they play with twenty other people. This one is no less useless.

At any rate, I made my point, I like this metric, it means more to me than a bunch of games against meaningless opponents in RS (although, truth be told, in Buffalo's case, every game mattered), and I fully intend to stick with it.

 

[bobholly39]

Anyway - I have to submit my list today since I'm probably out of town the next couple of days. Any last major points we haven't covered?

I meant to ask this last round but i figure this gives me the opening.

@quoipourquoi any issue with people who vote early - but then change their minds while voting is still open and decide to send in an updated list?

Roy and Hasek also probably played about half as many back to back games as Brodeur...and Brodeur was successful at them. Something most current goalies cannot achieve...

Whether it's true or not - can you argue the worth/value of this?

In any given season were Hasek or Roy's team on the cusp of making/missing the playoffs - where you feel them not being able to play back to back games cost their teams? Or is there a trend of them playing back to back games and doing very bad at them - enough so to hold it against them vs other goalies?

Because if i'm a coach - and if my team is safely pacing for playoffs - i don't play my goalie in back to back games either, so that they can stay fresh for playoffs. So long as they have enough career longevity and longevity within seasons (they do - its not like they're playing only 40 games) i don't think it's a big point. At least for me

 

[The Macho King]

"Wins" is an accepted metric for goalies, even though they play with twenty other people. This one is no less useless.

At any rate, I made my point, I like this metric, it means more to me than a bunch of games against meaningless opponents in RS (although, truth be told, in Buffalo's case, every game mattered), and I fully intend to stick with it.

Has a single person brought forward "wins" as a way to rank goaltenders in this? It's widely regarded as a shitty stat for goalies that few people take seriously.

You have somehow found a worse metric than wins, so congrats?

 

[Theokritos]

When two goalies are as close as Dom and Roy, I believe this is the way to go.

Of course you can believe what you want to believe, but you should also back it up with an argument. Why does Hašek's head-to-head record vs Roy indicate who the better goaltender is, but Hašek's head-to-head record vs Hedberg does not indicate who the better goaltender is?

In World Cup of Soccer it's a tiebreaker.

Between goaltenders?

 

[The Macho King]

Of course you can believe what you want to believe, but you should also back it up with an argument. Why does Hašek's head-to-head record vs Roy indicate who the better goaltender is, but Hašek's head-to-head record vs Hedberg does not indicate who the better goaltender is?



Between goaltenders?

Especially when Hasek has *really good arguments that are more substantive*. But really this is just another way to pump a RW.