Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 2 (Back in the Habit)

Tuna Tatarrrrrr

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What exactly are you trying to say? He’s not a legend in Quebec?

Either way, it’s not that difficult to look into his career and watch games. The poster claiming he didn’t know enough about Harvey sure loves to spout off about how Lidstrom’s competition was the “weakest ever” but now he’a admitted he doesn’t know much about previous eras.
Yep post-Bourque (2002-2012) was the weakest era ever compared to other unlike Bourque's.

Btw I didn't see or know enough of Harvey to make clear statements for Harvey vs Bourque unlike Bourque vs Lidstrom and this is why I won't go there. But it doesn't mean I ignore previous eras or whatever you want to believe.
 
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ImporterExporter

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Sorry I've been absent the past week guys. I lost my job of 11 years Monday and it's obviously been a rough week on the home front.

I'm caught up in all the UE paperwork, and job searching (already have 2 interviews for next week) so I'm emotionally in a better place right now. I'll get to read more of the threads tonight and cast my vote tomorrow before the deadline.
 

overg

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He was a 1st/2nd Team All-Star and ranked 1st in save percentage four times and 2nd on the other occasion across five seasons from 1987-88 through 1991-92.


They may have both won their 1st Vezina in Year Four, but Roy was already on his 2nd Final, his 3rd Jennings, his 2nd-consecutive save percentage title, and his 2nd-consecutive All-Star selection by the time Alan Thicke called him up on stage for that Vezina.


Hart nominees Ed Belfour, Grant Fuhr, John Vanbiesbrouck, Pete Peeters; Pearson winner Mike Liut; Pearson nominee Sean Burke; and Conn Smythe winners Bill Ranford, Mike Vernon, and Ron Hextall all played in 1988-89, but I’m not going to pretend that their existence gives Roy’s 1988-89 any more validation. Patrick Roy went 20-0 at home that year; it’s not exactly a season that needs to be compared to other goaltenders to be considered good.

Those are all stats and facts representing an extremely good goalie. But do they really add all that much to Roy's resume at this stage of the voting? Hasek's awards shelf through his peak pretty decisively trumps that, and that's what I think has been undersold through this round of voting. It seems the general tone is that Roy way outplays Hasek in the playoffs, while Hasek just a little bit outplays Roy in the regular season. I just don't see it that way.

I certainly give Roy a playoff edge over Hasek, but not by the margins many in these threads seem to. And I think Hasek's regular season dominance compared to Roy has been understated by many.

I mean, I get it if you really value Stanley Cup success in rating goalies, Roy should absolutely be ahead. But for anyone not locked into that mentality, Hasek has been given short shrift this round. His regular season success is a tier beyond Roy. The fact their careers overlapped just puts a very big exclamation point on that. At the very least, this should be a closer call than it seems to have been from the discussions.
 

VanIslander

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This punishes him for being a center and acts as though it's just as easy to get all-star votes as a center as it is for a left winger.

This also breaks goals and assists out of the more important metric - points - and fails to note that, because he is such a balanced offensive machine, he has eight top-5 finishes in points.

Both of these things you are more than smart enough to know. So I don't know if you're actually being disingenuous or just playing devil's advocate, or what.
Of course, of course. Underwhelming numbers can be explained away. That goes to my point!

I was replying to a query about what it would take to make Crosby a CONSENSUS 4/5 slot all time great and my point was to show he needs to stand out from the crowd in obvious, basic ways. All-star selections, top-5 & top-10 goals or assists and career totals are some fundamental tools many people go to in getting impressions of players. For example, Crosby needs to get past the non-HHOFers I listed and into the top 50 all time in career points to not look deficient there. Appearances are important to many. Most people don't take part in HOH projects.

As I ended my last post with the main point of it:

Consensus top 5 all time players have to be staggering in some areas AND not underwhelming in others.
 
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Kyle McMahon

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Isn't the only argument to be made for any of those players is Malkin has the best playoff run of the era even though Crosby was closer to Malkin than their point totals would indicate that year based on matchups?

I guess Keith may have had a better run than Crosby's best too but do Kane or Toews have a better Cup run than Crosby's best?

Crosby has the clear best playoff point totals and PPG of his era, and the clear best Cup run resume of the group (arguably could be Keith). He has four Cup runs where:

(1) Lead the playoffs in scoring
(2) Set an era best goal total of 15 (since tied by OV)
(3) Won the Smythe albeit a weak one but still was determined to be the best player on a very good Pens team
(4) Won the Smythe with a notable SCF performance

It is good that you note that talk of bad defensive teams (a debatable argument to begin with) has been put to bed with recent performances.

I don't want to get too much into comparisons with a bunch of ineligible players, but briefly...yeah I think Kane/Toews 2010 and 2015 are comparable with Crosby 2009 and 2017. 2013 for them and 2016 for Crosby are also reasonable comparisons. I think Keith was probably all around a little more consistent than Kane/Toews and has the best Conn Smythe performance of the last 15 years in my opinion, so throw him in as well. In any case, it's not a run-away for anybody. Which is fine; I don't think any other candidates can decisively claim to be the best of their era either, so it's not a strike against Crosby.

Based on the GA finishes of Belliveau's and Hull's opponents (e.g. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6):

Beliveau's opponent's averaged a 2.9 finish.

Hull's opponent's average a 2.5 finish.

Translating this to the current era (e.g. a 1-5 finish in GA = an O6 1 finish in O6 GA, a 6 - 10 finish = an O6 2 finish in the O6 era, etc... ) Crosby's opponents averaged a 2.6 finish.

Interesting to see that's how Hull and Beliveau fall compared to each other. It perhaps illustrates the difference between Beliveau playing the Hawks and Hull playing the Canadiens.

I'm not sure how well the O6 numbers can directly translate to eras with more teams in the league. 6 teams is problematically small when trying to scale to 30 teams. To clarify, my original methodology was meant to provide context to a player's raw scoring totals when compared to other players from that same era. It wasn't an attempt to normalize scoring totals across eras, though it may we a worthwhile endeavor to explore.

The issue I see with the methodology employed in the bolded above, is that a 30-team league has 5 times as many data points and is likely to provide a more consistent and accurate measure of defensive strength year over year, when using GA as the proxy. A 6-team league can lead to situations where minor differences are hugely exaggerated by the points system you've established.

Take 1963-64. You have Montreal (167 GA), Chicago (169), and Toronto (172) leading the way. Scaling this to last season, 1964 Toronto would be assigned the same defensive value as the 2018 Avalanche. The 31 data points that saw Colorado end up as a slightly above average defensive team have painted a fairly accurate picture. The 6 data points that have suggested Toronto was similar seems far less accurate. Was league-leading Montreal also just a little better than average? Or was half the league very strong? Neither conclusion seems appropriate. It's a problem that I can't really offer a clear solution to. I think you almost have to look at multi-year sample sizes to establish a baseline for O6 years and grade them on a more finely tuned scale. 1-2-3-4-5-6 is just too broad to be a reliable indicator.
 

MXD

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I'm not sure I'm liking Beliveau being penalized in some way for playing with a team who didn't allow lots of goals... when he obviously contributed to this situation.
 

blogofmike

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Dec 16, 2010
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As a response to @overpass from the last thread re: Harvey, here are Montreal's opponents:

YearTmWin%GF/GGA/GGFGAGD
1956NYR0.5292.912.902042031
1956DET0.5432.612.1118314835
1957NYR0.4712.632.63184227-43
1957BOS0.5712.792.4919517421
1958DET0.5002.512.96176207-31
1958BOS0.4932.842.771991945
1959CHI0.4932.812.97197208-11
1959TOR0.4642.702.87189201-12
1960CHI0.4932.732.5719118011
1960TOR0.5642.842.791991954
1961CHI0.5362.832.5719818018
1962CHI0.5363.102.6621718631
1963TOR0.5863.162.5722118041
1964TOR0.5572.572.461801728
1965TOR0.5292.912.4720417331
1965CHI0.5433.202.5122417648
1966TOR0.5642.972.6720818721
1966DET0.5293.162.7722119427
56-60 0.5122.742.71191.70193.70-2.000
61-66 0.5482.992.59209.13181.0028.125
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The 56-60 Habs played easier competition, especially if one looks at the teams and realizes that the 56-60 stats are inflated. The 1957 Bruins simply were not that good. Not a modern bias, just recognizing that they weren't the same playoff team with Simmons in net as they were in the first half of the year before 1st half Hart finalist Terry Sawchuk had left. The 1956 Rangers got destroyed and gave up Harvey's only 2 goal playoff game in a fitting sendoff for AHL netminder Gordie Bell (4.50 GAA in 2 games that series).

Their average opponent was .512 and then they never saw a team worse than .529 again (in this time span at least).

There are 18 teams here. 10 against the dynasty, 8 post dynasty. 7 of the top 9 Goal Differential opponents (hopefully in colour!) are in the post-dynasty group. The two who aren't, are the 56 Wings and the 57 Bruins who had Simmons not Sawchuk - and even C58 has trashed Simmons as a non-NHL calibre goalie before.

So while the Habs didn't miss Doug Harvey in the regular season, the thing they missed most in the playoffs was the sub-par competition.
 
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daver

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I don't want to get too much into comparisons with a bunch of ineligible players, but briefly...yeah I think Kane/Toews 2010 and 2015 are comparable with Crosby 2009 and 2017. 2013 for them and 2016 for Crosby are also reasonable comparisons. I think Keith was probably all around a little more consistent than Kane/Toews and has the best Conn Smythe performance of the last 15 years in my opinion, so throw him in as well. In any case, it's not a run-away for anybody. Which is fine; I don't think any other candidates can decisively claim to be the best of their era either, so it's not a strike against Crosby.

It matters when Beliveau is battling it out with Howe/Richard/Hull for era-best.

Top points finishes:

Crosby 2009 - 31
Toews 2010 - 29
Kane 2010 - 28
Crosby 2017 - 27
Crosby 2008 - 27

Kane 2015 - 23
Crosby 2018 (2nd round exit) - 21
Toews 2015 - 21
Kane 2013 - 20
Crosby 2010 (2nd round exit) - 19
Toews 2013 - 13

Crosby's 2nd and 3rd best Cup runs are the comparable with Kane's and Toews' 2010 runs. Crosby's 2016 is the comparable with Kane and Toews' 2nd best runs. Throw in two 2nd round exits for good measure.
 

daver

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Of course, of course. Underwhelming numbers can be explained away. That goes to my point!

I was replying to a query about what it would take to make Crosby a CONSENSUS 4/5 slot all time great and my point was to show he needs to stand out from the crowd in obvious, basic ways. All-star selections, top-5 & top-10 goals or assists and career totals are some fundamental tools many people go to in getting impressions of players. For example, Crosby needs to get past the non-HHOFers I listed and into the top 50 all time in career points to not look deficient there. Appearances are important to many. Most people don't take part in HOH projects.

As I ended my last post with the main point of it:

Consensus top 5 all time players have to be staggering in some areas and not underwhelming in others.

No response to a "staggering" fourteen Top 3 Art Ross finishes/Hart nominations?
 

blogofmike

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Beliveau has taken a hit for me. I had come in with Hull/Beliveau at 5/6.

@TheDevilMadeMe noted that Beliveau was analogous to Lemieux in PP reliance. But that's not true. Lemieux is PP-reliant compared to Gretzky. Against most others, Lemieux was often one of the best ES scorers in the league. Beliveau was not.

And while people keep mentioning the ability to bring up average linemates to star levels - they all did that. Except maybe for Beliveau, Morenz, and Shore.
 

VanIslander

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One or two point total differences between playoff years is insignificant. Let's look at gaps that have at least some significance:

Crosby 2009 - 31, Toews 2010 - 29, Kane 2010 - 28, Crosby 2017 - 27, Crosby 2008 - 27
.
.

Kane 2015 - 23, Crosby 2018 (2nd round exit) - 21, Toews 2015 - 21, Kane 2013 - 20, Crosby 2010 (2nd round exit) - 19
.
.

Toews 2013 - 13

(Sid looks even better!)
 
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daver

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Interesting to see that's how Hull and Beliveau fall compared to each other. It perhaps illustrates the difference between Beliveau playing the Hawks and Hull playing the Canadiens.

I'm not sure how well the O6 numbers can directly translate to eras with more teams in the league. 6 teams is problematically small when trying to scale to 30 teams. To clarify, my original methodology was meant to provide context to a player's raw scoring totals when compared to other players from that same era. It wasn't an attempt to normalize scoring totals across eras, though it may we a worthwhile endeavor to explore.

The issue I see with the methodology employed in the bolded above, is that a 30-team league has 5 times as many data points and is likely to provide a more consistent and accurate measure of defensive strength year over year, when using GA as the proxy. A 6-team league can lead to situations where minor differences are hugely exaggerated by the points system you've established.

I think when we are talking 25 to 30 playoff series then discrepancies over the points system should get normalized. This is all pushing aside the fact that a team's actual playoff performance and the overall strength of a team is not being considered along with speculation that said players would produce differently against different opponents.
 

blogofmike

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Difference between "power play reliance" and "power play excellence" is a matter of proper talent evaluation. Suggesting that Beliveau *needed* the power play to produce is not an accurate portrayal...

Fair. Perhaps I should say I was expecting more ES production and leave the PP out of it.
 

MXD

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Wasn't Bobby Rousseau playing with Beliveau at some point ? Not exactly an average player, but not quite the type who should've been standing out in the O-6 either.
 

daver

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One or two point total differences between playoff years is insignificant. Let's look at gaps that have at least some significance:

Crosby 2009 - 31, Toews 2010 - 29, Kane 2010 - 28, Crosby 2017 - 27, Crosby 2008 - 27
.
.

Kane 2015 - 23, Crosby 2018 (2nd round exit) - 21, Toews 2015 - 21, Kane 2013 - 20, Crosby 2010 (2nd round exit) - 19
.
.

Toews 2013 - 13

(Sid looks even better!)

To hammer the point home, add in Crosby's 2016 run!

That Kane and Toews were linemates in 210 is significant enough to create a gap.

That Crosby played a much more significant 2-way role than Kane ever did and in 2016 especially while similarly carrying a line of lesser linemates is significant.
 

Kyle McMahon

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It matters when Beliveau is battling it out with Howe/Richard/Hull for era-best.

Top points finishes:

Crosby 2009 - 31
Toews 2010 - 29
Kane 2010 - 28
Crosby 2017 - 27
Crosby 2008 - 27

Kane 2015 - 23
Crosby 2018 (2nd round exit) - 21
Toews 2015 - 21
Kane 2013 - 20
Crosby 2010 (2nd round exit) - 19
Toews 2013 - 13

Crosby's 2nd and 3rd best Cup runs are the comparable with Kane's and Toews' 2010 runs. Crosby's 2016 is the comparable with Kane and Toews' 2nd best runs. Throw in two 2nd round exits for good measure.

You do raise the point that Beliveau was certainly battling it out with superior players than Crosby was for best playoff player in their era. But circumstance plays a role in that, so I wouldn't really pursue it as a talking point to elevate Beliveau or denigrate Crosby.

I'm not sure what significance the point totals chart has here. Everyone is well aware of that data. Adding context to it would be more helpful. Crosby's 2017 is lower than his 2009, but it came against stronger opponents with lesser linemates...shouldn't this be considered?
 

BM67

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Roy's record in PO OT games split for H/R and Montreal/Colorado.

PlayerGPMinWLGAGAASASV%SA/60
Roy T584122:3040181402.0419210.92727.96
Roy H231612:33158542.017100.92426.42
Roy R352509:572510862.0612110.92928.95
Roy M292011:45236692.069870.93029.44
Roy M H141009:03122311.844360.92925.93
Roy M R151002:42114382.275510.93132.97
Roy C292110:451712712.029340.92426.55
Roy C H9603:3036232.292740.91627.24
Roy C R201507:15146481.916600.92726.27
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
The splits for the OT only.

PlayerGPMinWLGAGAASASV%SA/60
Roy T58662:224018181.633460.94831.34
Roy H23233:5715882.051140.93029.24
Roy R35428:252510101.402320.95732.49
Roy M29290:3123661.241630.96333.66
Roy M H14169:3512220.71750.97326.54
Roy M R15120:5611441.98880.95543.66
Roy C29371:511712121.941830.93429.53
Roy C H964:223665.59390.84636.35
Roy C R20307:2914661.171440.95828.10
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
His SA/60 go up as does his SV%, except at H in Colorado.

Hasek's PO OT record split for H/R.

PlayerGPMinWLGAGAASASV%SA/60
Hasek292190:59:001514742.039960.92627.28
Hasek H151061:26:0069382.154650.91826.29
Hasek R141129:33:0095361.915310.93228.21
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
The splits for the OT only.

PlayerGPMinWLGAGAASASV%SA/60
Hasek29473:40:001514141.772270.93828.75
Hasek H15181:38:006992.971030.91334.02
Hasek R14292:02:009551.031240.96025.48
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Most Saves in an OT win: Hasek 39, 22, 15 Roy 28, 18, 16

Most Saves in an OT loss: Hasek 23, 10, 9 Roy 19, 19, 8

Roy's 10 straight OT wins in the 1993 playoffs total 96:39 with 58 saves (36.01 SA/60) (save totals: 0, 1, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, 10, 12 14)
 
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blogofmike

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Wasn't Bobby Rousseau playing with Beliveau at some point ? Not exactly an average player, but not quite the type who should've been standing out in the O-6 either.

Rousseau seems to have taken over the PP in 1966 and scored 40 PP points, 1 shy of tying Hull for the then-record.

But that's the thing about PP points. If you didn't get them there is a better chance someone else could have.
 

Captain Bowie

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Jan 18, 2012
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Those are all stats and facts representing an extremely good goalie. But do they really add all that much to Roy's resume at this stage of the voting? Hasek's awards shelf through his peak pretty decisively trumps that, and that's what I think has been undersold through this round of voting. It seems the general tone is that Roy way outplays Hasek in the playoffs, while Hasek just a little bit outplays Roy in the regular season. I just don't see it that way.

I certainly give Roy a playoff edge over Hasek, but not by the margins many in these threads seem to. And I think Hasek's regular season dominance compared to Roy has been understated by many.

I mean, I get it if you really value Stanley Cup success in rating goalies, Roy should absolutely be ahead. But for anyone not locked into that mentality, Hasek has been given short shrift this round. His regular season success is a tier beyond Roy. The fact their careers overlapped just puts a very big exclamation point on that. At the very least, this should be a closer call than it seems to have been from the discussions.
It's not about valuing Stanley Cup success, for me anyways. It's about valuing an individuals contributions to his teams' Stanley Cup success, which Patrick Roy might have on anyone in history not named Wayne Gretzky.

I don't think their regular season is as far apart as it has been portrayed at times, but it's certainly possible Hasek's playoffs are better than I give him credit for. I will probably be voting sometime this afternoon so I don't know if there's time, but I'd love to see the case for it if there is one.
 

danincanada

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Feb 11, 2008
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Yep post-Bourque (2002-2012) was the weakest era ever compared to other unlike Bourque's.

Btw I didn't see or know enough of Harvey to make clear statements for Harvey vs Bourque unlike Bourque vs Lidstrom and this is why I won't go there. But it doesn't mean I ignore previous eras or whatever you want to believe.

So you don’t know enough to properly compare the top defenders of those eras with each other but you feel comfortable comparing each ones peers with each other. At best that’s odd and at worst that’s ridiculous. Gotcha.

You should post more here though cause you’d fit right in where so many assume a Canadian only league with 36 mainstay defenders is tougher competition than an international league with 180 or so of the same.
 

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