Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 18

quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
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Hockeytown, MI
St. Louis had a strong year, but 2004 was one of the weakest seasons that I can remember in terms of top end talent - link

Of course, we can't fault him because he peaked during a season that feature relative few really high-end performances, and to his credit he ran away with the Hart trophy, but it goes back to my previous point about how his trophy case seems to be better than you'd expect.

I feel like even if Forsberg was healthy and beat St. Louis in 2003-04 and Crosby was healthy and beat St. Louis in 2012-13, him having three 2nd place finishes for the Art Ross Trophy to go along with his 5th and 6th place finishes in years with healthier competition would still have him in this range.

His 7-year VsX is pretty strong, and he is the top even-strength scorer in the 10 years bookended by those Art Ross seasons, so he wasn’t just a two-season wonder. It certainly helps that he doesn’t have the playoff baggage of some of his contemporaries, and that he was a pretty safe bet as a clutch goal scorer with over 25% of his playoff goals being GWGs (including 4 in overtime).
 
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Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
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I agree with you that Iginla and (and Kane!) are clearly better than St. Louis, but IMO, that's more a problem with those two not showing up yet when they should.

I'm as yet undecided on what to do with St. Louis. Did someone examine the effects of the southeast conference on his scoring totals in the wingers project? I'll try to hunt it down later this week if nobody else does.

H-R now has a pre-sorted splits feature available (or at least I just noticed it). Martin St. Louis 2013 season.

Career numbers are also available. I haven't gone through all the individual seasons, but St. Louis' Art Ross 2013 season has pretty striking splits. In a 48-game season, the scoring race was compressed enough that it's not unreasonable to project St. Louis outside of the top 10 in scoring if he'd played in the Western Conference, or even the Northeast Division of the East.

That's a pretty big deal in the world of top-10 and trophy counting (not saying any of our panel is necessarily going overboard with it though).

I would speculate that the war-effect on Bill Cowley's 1942-43 season is probably less dramatic than the effect of playing in the Southeast Division in 2013 specifically.
 

ted2019

History of Hockey
Oct 3, 2008
5,492
1,882
pittsgrove nj
I have the defensemen as following.

1. Chara: As someone else stated, but he qualities that are hard to quantify. He was no doubt the leader of those Bruin teams. I also think that by the playoffs, he was wore down and his play suffered. The year they won the cup, in regards of ice time during the regular season, it was Chara, Seidenberg, Boychuk and then everybody else. In the playoffs in the 2010/11 season, Chara & Seidenberg played 27:39 & 27:38 and then the next closet defensemen were Johnny Boychuk & Andrew Ference at 20:38 & 20:37. 7 minutes per game in the playoffs is a huge difference.

2. Gadsby: 7x post season AS, whether it was a "weak" time for defensemen or not, is still pretty good. He played on some bad teams as he only made the playoffs 8x in 20 years, so to be voted as an AS as much as he did, meant that he was recognized as being on of the top players in the league. If he played on better teams, he probably would've had more post-season AS berths and better numbers.

3. Brian Leetch: His career is basically from the 1987-88 to 1996-97, as except for the 2000-01 season, he was an average defenseman. He had a great playoff career, but that won't put him no higher then 4th. I find it hard to vote Leetch over Mark Howe, who was the better player.

4. Duncan Keith: All I really have to say is that his career has been too inconsistent to be ranked higher in this group. I still think that it could be a reach for him to even be a top 100 player.
 

Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
29,206
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Connecticut
Yeah, Seids was remarkable...he had an unbelievable run, and Chara deserves some of that credit...we all know my feelings on that Boston run, it doesn't bear repeating...those who know me, know why I have to go "yeah, but..." in Chara's favor...but it's not his Norris record (it's also not not his Norris record)...

In sum, it's not Chara time.

Incidentally, is this/will this be the worst player in terms of sustained performance to come up for us at the NHL level? Early Chara was one of the worst players in the league...I wonder if anyone else can legitimately say that for a sustained period of time...I don't think I'm asking the question correctly, but I'm assuming we get what I'm getting at...

I understand what you mean.

But Chara is the one player that has to be the hardest to rate.

When he was bad early in his career, yes, he was worse than anyone on this list. His skill set is not as good as anyone else's except that he can shoot really, really hard. But no one else is 6'9", either. No one else can be standing in the faceoff circle and poke-check someone just coming over the blueline. No one else could fight anyone anytime simply because they could just neutralize them with size and strength. And then you look at his numbers as a shutdown defenseman. Take away his Islander years and he's +310, facing the top lines every game and being the top PK guy every year. Also an excellent captain.

Eye test shows a failure here. But his accomplishments are very good. That said, its a little too early for me.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,667
16,394
H-R now has a pre-sorted splits feature available (or at least I just noticed it). Martin St. Louis 2013 season.

Career numbers are also available. I haven't gone through all the individual seasons, but St. Louis' Art Ross 2013 season has pretty striking splits. In a 48-game season, the scoring race was compressed enough that it's not unreasonable to project St. Louis outside of the top 10 in scoring if he'd played in the Western Conference, or even the Northeast Division of the East.

That's a pretty big deal in the world of top-10 and trophy counting (not saying any of our panel is necessarily going overboard with it though).

I would speculate that the war-effect on Bill Cowley's 1942-43 season is probably less dramatic than the effect of playing in the Southeast Division in 2013 specifically.

Switch St-Louis's performance against the Capitals with Ovechkin's performance against the Lightning, and it's suddenly Ovechkin winning the Art Ross by a 3-pt margin over Stamkos and a 4 pt margin over Crosby and St-Louis.
 

vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
28,584
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maybe important to remember that up to the week he was traded to the rangers, 38 year old MSL was 7th in scoring and carrying two rookies nobody had ever heard of before, a 7th round pick and an undrafted guy his own size, to calder nominations.
 

Nick Hansen

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
3,119
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How many wingers were greater playmakers than Martin St Louis?

Howe, Jagr, Lafleur, Bathgate and then? Lindsay?
 

vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
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How many wingers were greater playmakers than Martin St Louis?

Howe, Jagr, Lafleur, Bathgate and then? Lindsay?

i would say he's on a level with makarov, a little ahead of kurri, recchi, daniel sedin, and pat kane. probably a bunch more names in that tier he's slightly above too. off the top of my head, toe blake, bert olmstead, dickie moore, maybe patrik elias? bossy? markus naslund?

but it's hard. with sedin, kane, naslund, elias, i'm not looking at their assists totals, it's the eye test. but i don't have the same handle on wingers from previous eras who might not have a bunch of assist titles.
 

Nick Hansen

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
3,119
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i would say he's on a level with makarov, a little ahead of kurri, recchi, daniel sedin, and pat kane. probably a bunch more names in that tier he's slightly above too. off the top of my head, toe blake, bert olmstead, dickie moore, maybe patrik elias? bossy? markus naslund?

but it's hard. with sedin, kane, naslund, elias, i'm not looking at their assists totals, it's the eye test. but i don't have the same handle on wingers from previous eras who might not have a bunch of assist titles.

Makarov and Kane are the only ones I'd entertain out of your more recent names. Blake and Olmstead both suffer. Blake not ever really finishing high in assists except one year and that was in the 40's and Olmstead only having four top 10 assists finishes (though 1,1,2 and 9th is not to be scoffed at). Now, that is not the full picture, obviously but St Louis playmaking really was great IMO.

Alex Delvecchio is another guy that should be mentioned.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
22,246
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H-R now has a pre-sorted splits feature available (or at least I just noticed it). Martin St. Louis 2013 season.

Career numbers are also available. I haven't gone through all the individual seasons, but St. Louis' Art Ross 2013 season has pretty striking splits. In a 48-game season, the scoring race was compressed enough that it's not unreasonable to project St. Louis outside of the top 10 in scoring if he'd played in the Western Conference, or even the Northeast Division of the East.

That's a pretty big deal in the world of top-10 and trophy counting (not saying any of our panel is necessarily going overboard with it though).

I would speculate that the war-effect on Bill Cowley's 1942-43 season is probably less dramatic than the effect of playing in the Southeast Division in 2013 specifically.

That season really helped Ovechkin with the Hart as he also beat up on the southeast division.

Crosby did as well but at least he had a more even distribution of points among the 3 divisions.

MSL "feels" like a bit of a compiler but he actually has other very good attributes, good in playoffs, decent defensive play for a winger ect... makes him a hard guy to place this round.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
22,246
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My point being on a team with Larry Robinson, was Savard really the "steadiest d-man, the leader on the blueline, and the best mix of offense and defense."?

He was very good defensively but robinson did it for a lot longer and Lapointe was clearly a better offensive player.

I really have my doubts that Savard shows up for voting, would much refer Mark Howe, although I doubt he will come up either.

At this stage of the project one will probably be able to make an argument for 5 guys not in the top 100 being "better" than the last 5 guys that make this list.
 

Captain Bowie

Registered User
Jan 18, 2012
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He was very good defensively but robinson did it for a lot longer and Lapointe was clearly a better offensive player.

I really have my doubts that Savard shows up for voting, would much refer Mark Howe, although I doubt he will come up either.

At this stage of the project one will probably be able to make an argument for 5 guys not in the top 100 being "better" than the last 5 guys that make this list.
I just now realized while looking at my 120 list how few guys will have the honour of making the list. There will only be what, 6 more players to make it onto the list that have not come up for voting yet. Both Howe and Savard or probably worthy of one of the final spots, and for defencemen I'd also include Langway, Stewart, Quackenbush and Goodfellow. Almost a guarantee only 1 or 2 of those guys will make it.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
22,246
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How many wingers were greater playmakers than Martin St Louis?

Howe, Jagr, Lafleur, Bathgate and then? Lindsay?

Blake Wheeler and Patrick Kane are probably the best current guys.

Kucherov of course as well.

Marner and Johnny hockey as well.
 

vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
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forgive me if it was discussed last round and i missed it, but was gadsby really the clear #3 dman of the 50s like the AST voting suggests, or did he just score more than guys like johnson and pronovost?
 
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quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
4,126
Hockeytown, MI
Duncan Keith: All I really have to say is that his career has been too inconsistent to be ranked higher in this group. I still think that it could be a reach for him to even be a top 100 player.

His playoffs probably keep him somewhat afloat, but it certainly doesn’t help that he only has three All-Star selections in a position that names four players, and in those three years the Blackhawks had a forward recognized higher in Hart balloting. I just don’t really see any reason to view him as a necessary representative of the Chicago Blackhawks for this era.
 
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Canadiens1958

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forgive me if it was discussed last round and i missed it, but was gadsby really the clear #3 dman of the 50s like the AST voting suggests, or did he just score more than guys like johnson and pronovost?

Different era. In a two pairing team structure, #1 dman was paired with the #4 and #2 with #3.

Weighing the strength of the #4 dman playing with Gadsby with Chicago and New York is rather difficult.
 

vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
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His playoffs probably keep him somewhat afloat, but it certainly doesn’t help that he only has three All-Star selections in a position that names four players, and in those three years the Blackhawks had a forward recognized higher in Hart balloting. I just don’t really see any reason to view him as a necessary representative of the Chicago Blackhawks for this era.

it's interesting. objectively, it's patrick kane all day long. three 1ASTs, probably a 2AST this year, hart, ross, 2nd place finish, 5th place finish, likely top 5 finish this year, smythe and could have won two.

toews could only have won the one smythe he did win. a lot of high selke finishes and captain, but the clear third player out of the group.

keith could have won all three smythes. i think that's the trump card here. but in general, kane was the finisher and was/is a hell of a clutch player. but is he lafleur good where you don't care that he gives you nothing else? maybe he has been in recent years, but not between 2010 and 2015. my team played three straight playoff series against that team and he was demonstrably the most important player on that team over 200 feet.
 
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Captain Bowie

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it's interesting. objectively, it's patrick kane all day long. three 1ASTs, probably a 2AST this year, hart, ross, 2nd place finish, 5th place finish, likely top 5 finish this year, smythe and could have won two.

toews could only have won the one smythe he did win. a lot of high selke finishes and captain, but the clear third player out of the group.

keith could have won all three smythes. i think that's the trump card here. but in general, kane was the finisher and was/is a hell of a clutch player. but is he lafleur good where you don't care that he gives you nothing else? maybe he has been in recent years, but not between 2010 and 2015. my team played three straight playoff series against that team and he was demonstrably the most important player on that team over 200 feet.

Certainly not. Lafleur peaked higher and did it for multiple seasons in a row.
 
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vadim sharifijanov

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Oct 10, 2007
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it's interesting. objectively, it's patrick kane all day long. three 1ASTs, probably a 2AST this year, hart, ross, 2nd place finish, 5th place finish, likely top 5 finish this year, smythe and could have won two.

toews could only have won the one smythe he did win. a lot of high selke finishes and captain, but the clear third player out of the group.

keith could have won all three smythes. i think that's the trump card here. but in general, kane was the finisher and was/is a hell of a clutch player. but is he lafleur good where you don't care that he gives you nothing else? maybe he has been in recent years, but not between 2010 and 2015. my team played three straight playoff series against that team and he was demonstrably the most important player on that team over 200 feet.

and to get to my actual point here, if this happened 40 years ago, i think we'd look back and say kane was the best player. but having just seen all this in the last ten years i think most of us would who saw a lot of that team would say keith was their clear best guy. he just doesn't have the prestige awards of the hart or art ross that kane does, and his norris record is basically all or nothing, tracking almost exactly with scoring spikes instead of rewarding his steady all-round excellence over nine seasons, practically a decade.
 

sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
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His playoffs probably keep him somewhat afloat, but it certainly doesn’t help that he only has three All-Star selections in a position that names four players, and in those three years the Blackhawks had a forward recognized higher in Hart balloting. I just don’t really see any reason to view him as a necessary representative of the Chicago Blackhawks for this era.

With Keith it felt (and looked) like he didn't always care 100%. Then he could turn on a switch and become a demon (like after Seabrook got Torresed in the 11 playoffs). It often felt he kinda had Blackhawks fate in his mood.
 

blogofmike

Registered User
Dec 16, 2010
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and to get to my actual point here, if this happened 40 years ago, i think we'd look back and say kane was the best player. but having just seen all this in the last ten years i think most of us would who saw a lot of that team would say keith was their clear best guy. he just doesn't have the prestige awards of the hart or art ross that kane does, and his norris record is basically all or nothing, tracking almost exactly with scoring spikes instead of rewarding his steady all-round excellence over nine seasons, practically a decade.

I think we were pretty good about recognizing Denis Potvin.
 

Vilica

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Jun 1, 2014
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I finally got Red Kelly into my spreadsheet, so I can present to you the numbers that some people have indicated that they want. I'm not going to be making much of an argument, though I will be pointing out some of the highlights after the tables. I'm simply going to present the numbers, and hopefully let them lead to some discussion.

Some posters have said that they didn't like just the team splits in isolation, that they wanted multiple players over the same time period, so this is my attempt to provide that information. I chose the time period of 46-47 through 58-59 to highlight Bill Gadsby's prime. Because Red Kelly switched from D to C after he got traded in 59-60, I decided to exclude that year. I tried to find a fourth player to show, to go along with Red Kelly, Doug Harvey, and Bill Gadsby, but those three really were a triumvirate. Over the time period of 46-47 through 58-59, they were basically 150 points better than the nearest competition. Jimmy Thomson, Bill Quackenbush and Allen Stanley were the only other defensemen to break 200 points. On a per-game basis, Hy Buller actually was the closest, but unfortunately he only played three full seasons. Ken Reardon and Pierre Pilote also had good per-game numbers, but Reardon only played during the beginning, and Pilote the end.

Without further ado, here are the tables:

Bill Gadsby
46-47 to 58-59AwayHomeTotal
GamesGoalsAssistsPointsGamesGoalsAssistsPointsGamesGoalsAssistsPoints
BOS797364380122941159196584
CHI3221719328283664104555
DET79525307882533157135063
MTL7911152680122840159234366
NYR485192448123249664248
TOR829172678143448160235174
Total399391291683965516722279594296390
Per Game0.0980.3230.4210.1390.4220.5610.1180.3720.491
Totals79594296390CHI 468 54 132 186
79594296390NYR 327 40 164 204
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Red Kelly
47-48 to 58-59AwayHomeTotal
GamesGoalsAssistsPointsGamesGoalsAssistsPointsGamesGoalsAssistsPoints
BOS7712183080163854157285684
CHI80113849822143641623281113
DET000000000000
MTL7917234080183250159355590
NYR8015274279172744159325486
TOR7915223780143044159295281
Total3957012819840186170256796156298454
Per Game0.1770.3240.5010.2140.4240.6380.1960.3740.570
Totals796156298454
796156298454
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Doug Harvey
47-48 to 58-59AwayHomeTotal
GamesGoalsAssistsPointsGamesGoalsAssistsPointsGamesGoalsAssistsPoints
BOS7912425786293515775360
CHI767273471114051147186785
DET77418227692837153134659
MTL000000000000
NYR7710394979950591561989108
TOR7812223756404615376269
Total387231301533794118722876664317381
Per Game0.0590.3360.3950.1080.4930.6020.0840.4140.497
Totals76664317381
76664317381
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
A nice side effect of this sample size is that home and away break down into nearly per 82 games, so you can kinda guesstimate their production without having to do any math. Also, in terms of divvying up their goals, Gadsby breaks down to 64 EV, 25 PP, and 5 SH, Kelly to 97/48/11, and Harvey to 42/19/3. In any case, here are their numbers expressed in a per game format.

Gadsby GPGAPGPPGKelly GPGAPGPPGHarvey GPGAPGPPG
BOS0.1190.4090.528BOS0.1780.3570.535BOS0.0450.3380.382
CHI0.1560.7030.859CHI0.1980.5000.698CHI0.1220.4560.578
DET0.0830.3180.401DETDET0.0850.3010.386
MTL0.1450.2700.415MTL0.2200.3460.566MTL
NYR0.0630.4380.500NYR0.2010.3400.541NYR0.1220.5710.692
TOR0.1440.3190.463TOR0.1820.3270.509TOR0.0460.4050.451
795 0.118 0.372 0.491 796 0.196 0.374 0.570 766 0.084 0.414 0.497
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
For Gadsby, I'd like to draw your attention to his Chicago numbers. They represent 55 of his 204 points as a Ranger. Red Kelly had 42 of his 182 points, while Doug Harvey had 36 of his 204 for that 54-55 to 58-59 time period. I'd also like to point out how both Gadsby and Harvey struggled individually against Detroit, while Red Kelly had no such issues against their teams. Finally, I'd like to point out Doug Harvey's outlier assist numbers versus the Rangers. His performance in 58-59 finally brought his APG number down below his Chicago PPG - prior to that year his assists per game against the Rangers were higher than his points per game against every other team.

I think I've covered the numbers I wanted to cover. One of the only aspects I thought about including, but didn't, was separating Gadsby's splits into his Chicago and New York stints. If I had, I probably would have needed to include both Kelly and Harvey's splits for that 54-55 to 58-59 period, and this post would've gotten even more cluttered than it already is. Anyways, time to post this and go to bed, I hope this proves helpful and I can find another set of circumstances where I can do this for a different player.
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,773
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
I finally got Red Kelly into my spreadsheet, so I can present to you the numbers that some people have indicated that they want. I'm not going to be making much of an argument, though I will be pointing out some of the highlights after the tables. I'm simply going to present the numbers, and hopefully let them lead to some discussion.

Some posters have said that they didn't like just the team splits in isolation, that they wanted multiple players over the same time period, so this is my attempt to provide that information. I chose the time period of 46-47 through 58-59 to highlight Bill Gadsby's prime. Because Red Kelly switched from D to C after he got traded in 59-60, I decided to exclude that year. I tried to find a fourth player to show, to go along with Red Kelly, Doug Harvey, and Bill Gadsby, but those three really were a triumvirate. Over the time period of 46-47 through 58-59, they were basically 150 points better than the nearest competition. Jimmy Thomson, Bill Quackenbush and Allen Stanley were the only other defensemen to break 200 points. On a per-game basis, Hy Buller actually was the closest, but unfortunately he only played three full seasons. Ken Reardon and Pierre Pilote also had good per-game numbers, but Reardon only played during the beginning, and Pilote the end.

Without further ado, here are the tables:

Bill Gadsby
46-47 to 58-59AwayHomeTotal
GamesGoalsAssistsPointsGamesGoalsAssistsPointsGamesGoalsAssistsPoints
BOS797364380122941159196584
CHI3221719328283664104555
DET79525307882533157135063
MTL7911152680122840159234366
NYR485192448123249664248
TOR829172678143448160235174
Total399391291683965516722279594296390
Per Game0.0980.3230.4210.1390.4220.5610.1180.3720.491
Totals79594296390CHI 468 54 132 186
79594296390NYR 327 40 164 204
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Red Kelly
47-48 to 58-59AwayHomeTotal
GamesGoalsAssistsPointsGamesGoalsAssistsPointsGamesGoalsAssistsPoints
BOS7712183080163854157285684
CHI80113849822143641623281113
DET000000000000
MTL7917234080183250159355590
NYR8015274279172744159325486
TOR7915223780143044159295281
Total3957012819840186170256796156298454
Per Game0.1770.3240.5010.2140.4240.6380.1960.3740.570
Totals796156298454
796156298454
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Doug Harvey
47-48 to 58-59AwayHomeTotal
GamesGoalsAssistsPointsGamesGoalsAssistsPointsGamesGoalsAssistsPoints
BOS7912425786293515775360
CHI767273471114051147186785
DET77418227692837153134659
MTL000000000000
NYR7710394979950591561989108
TOR7812223756404615376269
Total387231301533794118722876664317381
Per Game0.0590.3360.3950.1080.4930.6020.0840.4140.497
Totals76664317381
76664317381
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
A nice side effect of this sample size is that home and away break down into nearly per 82 games, so you can kinda guesstimate their production without having to do any math. Also, in terms of divvying up their goals, Gadsby breaks down to 64 EV, 25 PP, and 5 SH, Kelly to 97/48/11, and Harvey to 42/19/3. In any case, here are their numbers expressed in a per game format.

Gadsby GPGAPGPPGKelly GPGAPGPPGHarvey GPGAPGPPG
BOS0.1190.4090.528BOS0.1780.3570.535BOS0.0450.3380.382
CHI0.1560.7030.859CHI0.1980.5000.698CHI0.1220.4560.578
DET0.0830.3180.401DETDET0.0850.3010.386
MTL0.1450.2700.415MTL0.2200.3460.566MTL
NYR0.0630.4380.500NYR0.2010.3400.541NYR0.1220.5710.692
TOR0.1440.3190.463TOR0.1820.3270.509TOR0.0460.4050.451
795 0.118 0.372 0.491 796 0.196 0.374 0.570 766 0.084 0.414 0.497
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
For Gadsby, I'd like to draw your attention to his Chicago numbers. They represent 55 of his 204 points as a Ranger. Red Kelly had 42 of his 182 points, while Doug Harvey had 36 of his 204 for that 54-55 to 58-59 time period. I'd also like to point out how both Gadsby and Harvey struggled individually against Detroit, while Red Kelly had no such issues against their teams. Finally, I'd like to point out Doug Harvey's outlier assist numbers versus the Rangers. His performance in 58-59 finally brought his APG number down below his Chicago PPG - prior to that year his assists per game against the Rangers were higher than his points per game against every other team.

I think I've covered the numbers I wanted to cover. One of the only aspects I thought about including, but didn't, was separating Gadsby's splits into his Chicago and New York stints. If I had, I probably would have needed to include both Kelly and Harvey's splits for that 54-55 to 58-59 period, and this post would've gotten even more cluttered than it already is. Anyways, time to post this and go to bed, I hope this proves helpful and I can find another set of circumstances where I can do this for a different player.

Interesting. Worthwhile read. Red Kelly played a fair amount at forward with Detroit in the 1950-1959 period. Mainly LW, some center. The following contains work in progress details.

Red Kelly Defenceman or Forward
 
Last edited:

DannyGallivan

Your world frightens and confuses me
Aug 25, 2017
7,560
10,105
Melonville
My point being on a team with Larry Robinson, was Savard really the "steadiest d-man, the leader on the blueline, and the best mix of offense and defense."?
Yes. Robinson was the "best" defenseman, However, Savard was the most balanced (I guess that's what I meant when I said best mix of offense and defense... I could have worded that better). He leaned more towards defensive defenseman after his broken leg. Plus, his teammates universally considered him the calm in the storm, the one guy who never got rattled (which is why I give him the defensive "leader" tag...and he was a captain, after all). Anyways, we can get into this more when Savard's name comes up.
 
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