Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 18

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by quoipourquoi, Mar 11, 2019.

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  1. quoipourquoi Goaltender

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    Procedure
    • You will be presented with 10+ players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list (10 players plus anyone with 99% of the voting points of the 10th ranked player)
    • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
    • You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to quoipourquoi
    • Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
    • The top-4 players will be added to The List in Vote 1, while the top-5 players will be added to The List in subsequent voting cycles (#1-4 in Vote 1, #5-9 in Vote 2, #10-14 in Vote 3, #15-19 in Vote 4, #20-24 in Vote 5, #25-29 in Vote 6, #30-34 in Vote 7, #35-39 in Vote 8, #40-44 in Vote 9, #45-49 in Vote 10, #50-54 in Vote 11, #55-59 in Vote 12, #60-64 in Vote 13, #65-69 in Vote 14, #70-74 in Vote 15, #75-79 in Vote 16, #80-84 in Vote 17, #85-89 in Vote 18, #90-94 in Vote 19, #95-99 in Vote 20)
    • A 100th player will be added to The List in Vote 21 from an expanded group of 15 candidates

    Eligible Voters
    • Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 120 players (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated in the History of Hockey ranking
    • Art of Sedinery, Batis, BenchBrawl, blogofmike, bobholly39, Canadiens1958, ChiTownPhilly, DannyGallivan, Dennis Bonvie, Dr John Carlson, ehhedler, Hockey Outsider, Iceman, ImporterExporter, Johnny Engine, JoseTheodore2002, kruezer, Kyle McMahon, Mike Farkas, MXD, pappyline, quoipourquoi, ResilientBeast, Sentinel, seventieslord, steve141, ted1971, TheDevilMadeMe, TheGeneral, The Macho Man, tony d, VanIslander

    Guidelines
    • Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
    • Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players
    • Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
    • Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project.

    House Rules
    • Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
    • We encourage interpositional discussion (forward vs. defenseman vs. goaltender) as opposed to the safer and somewhat redundant intrapositional debates. Overemphasizing a tired single-position argument like, I don’t know, Harvey/Lidstrom, will only be briefly tolerated before one is asked to move on to a less tedious comparison.
    • Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
    • Finish your drink when someone mentions that goaltenders cannot be compared to skaters

    The actual voting period will open up on Friday, March 15th at midnight and continue through Sunday, March 17th at 8:59pm. Eastern time zone. I will release the results of the vote on Monday, March 18th.


    Vote 18 Candidates
    • Bill Cowley
    • Bill Gadsby
    • Boris Mikhailov
    • Brian Leetch
    • Duncan Keith
    • Ed Belfour
    • Eric Lindros
    • Martin St. Louis
    • Nels Stewart
    • Sergei Fedorov
    • Zdeno Chara
     
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  2. DannyGallivan Your world frightens and confuses me

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    A little more of a modern touch this time around.

    Lindros, finally (I'm probably in the minority saying that).
    Chara, already?
    St. Louis... glad to see him.
    Belfour... about time.
    Keith. Deserved.
     
  3. Nick Hansen Registered User

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    Pleased with Keith, Belfour and St Louis. Lindros? Yeah, he might be due for a discussion at the very least. It wasn't long but his prime/peak was incredible, no doubt about it.

    Not high on Chara personally...but his resume is impressive.

    Zdeno Chara Stats | Hockey-Reference.com
     
  4. DannyGallivan Your world frightens and confuses me

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    Based on ability alone, Lindros is number one on this list. Based on career... that's where the debate comes in.
     
  5. Hockey Outsider Registered User

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    Hart trophy voting results

    Player1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th+Total
    Bill Cowley2114
    Eric Lindros11114
    Nels Stewart213
    Martin St. Louis112
    Sergei Fedorov112
    Ed Belfour112
    Zdeno Chara11
    Boris Mikhailov0
    Bill Gadsby0
    Brian Leetch0
    Duncan Keith0
    Three of Bill Cowley's four seasons as a Hart finalist took place during the talent-ravaged war years.

    Stewart won his first Hart trophy in 1926 (right before North American professional hockey was consolidated into one league).

    Remember that I'm using a 5% threshold when presenting results. This affected Brian Leetch more than anyone (he got Hart results in three different seasons, but never more than a few at a time).

    VsX - 1927 to 2018

    Player 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th 7YR 10YR
    Bill Cowley 140.9 100.0 95.5 93.0 88.6 83.3 77.8 74.7 60.3 52.5 97.0 86.7
    Martin St. Louis 108.0 105.3 100.0 89.5 86.2 79.3 78.3 76.3 72.7 67.3 92.4 86.3
    Nels Stewart 100.0 97.1 90.7 90.7 88.7 83.0 81.8 81.8 79.5 77.8 90.3 87.1
    Eric Lindros 100.0 95.8 86.9 81.1 80.8 78.0 72.5 62.8 51.0 50.7 85.0 76.0
    Sergei Fedorov 100.0 89.2 79.8 75.6 74.7 74.1 71.9 71.4 68.7 66.0 80.8 77.1
    Brian Leetch 87.9 82.3 76.5 71.6 70.8 65.8 61.1 58.6 58.6 54.9 73.7 68.8
    Bill Gadsby 71.8 67.2 64.8 61.4 53.2 50.7 44.0 38.9 38.8 36.1 59.0 52.7
    Borje Salming 74.3 69.7 62.9 59.7 48.9 47.9 42.9 38.1 36.3 35.5 58.0 51.6
    Duncan Keith 70.1 63.3 59.6 52.3 48.3 47.4 45.5 41.2 40.0 31.4 55.2 49.9
    Zdeno Chara 53.6 48.1 47.1 46.0 45.5 44.4 41.6 40.6 40.4 37.7 46.6 44.5

    Remember that Sturminator's benchmarks include "fudge factors" for WWII, so Cowley's results are probably reasonably accurate.

    Note that this excludes Stewart's 1926 campaign (pre consolidation) when he led the league in goals and points by comfortable margins.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2019
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  6. Nick Hansen Registered User

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    My big question mark with regards to Lindros is his hockey IQ. How great was it, really?
     
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  7. Hockey Outsider Registered User

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    Playoff R-On vs R-Off

    Eric Lindros

    SeasonGames R ON R OFFINCREASE
    1994-9512 1.78 1.3235%
    1995-9612 0.90 1.18-24%
    1996-9719 1.41 1.327%
    1997-985 0.50 1.00-50%
    1999-002 1.00 0.9011%
    2006-073 - 1.00-100%
    A mixed bag with small sample sizes, but fairly strong on balance. Believe it nor not, Lindros's playoff results are almost identical to Malkin's.

    Martin St. Louis

    SeasonGames R ON R OFFINCREASE
    2002-0311 1.83 0.43328%
    2003-0423 1.46 1.0539%
    2005-065 0.71 0.5043%
    2006-076 7.00 0.272467%
    2010-1118 0.53 1.50-65%
    2013-1425 0.69 1.25-45%
    2014-1519 0.88 1.09-20%
    A tale of two halves to his career. Consistently great results for his first four playoff runs, then bad results after. Overall, St. Louis career results are almost exactly even.

    Zdeno Chara

    SeasonGames R ON R OFFINCREASE
    2001-0210 2.33 1.4462%
    2002-0318 1.27 1.0027%
    2003-047 2.50 0.38567%
    2005-0610 1.00 1.000%
    2007-087 0.83 0.7019%
    2008-0911 1.09 2.00-45%
    2009-1013 1.10 0.6473%
    2010-1124 2.00 1.7713%
    2011-127 0.80 1.13-29%
    2012-1322 1.33 1.44-8%
    2013-1412 1.80 1.0965%
    2016-176 0.50 1.75-71%
    Some weaker results after the Cup victory, but strong overall. Chara's playoff results are in the same range as Potvin and Stevens. Even when Ottawa was disappointing in the playoffs, Chara vastly outplayed his teammates.

    Duncan Keith

    SeasonGames R ON R OFFINCREASE
    2008-0917 1.06 0.7542%
    2009-1022 1.08 1.48-27%
    2010-117 0.57 2.40-76%
    2011-126 1.33 0.7090%
    2012-1322 1.77 1.1850%
    2013-1419 1.58 0.8294%
    2014-1523 1.80 0.78131%
    2015-166 2.00 0.73175%
    2016-174 - 0.17-100%
    Excellent results overall. Surprisingly, the Blackhawks have a (slightly) negative ES goal ratio when Keith is off the ice. When he's on the ice, his ES ratio is in the same range as Pronger, Chara, Coffey and Chelios. (For those curious, his numbers look a lot better than Kane's and Toews'). Very strong results relative to his team in four of the Blackhawks' five runs to the conference finals.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
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  8. DannyGallivan Your world frightens and confuses me

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    Good question. Lindros was both beneficiary and victim to his strengths... and hockey I.Q. wasn't necessarily one of them.

    He was the best combination of size, strength and raw talent since Howe. Little frail guys like Gretzky needed extremely high hockey I.Q. to flourish. Lindros was used to getting his own way by simply being stronger than everyone else since a young teen. His ability to skate like a 160 pounder, possess the soft hands of a finesse center and the strength of an NFL linebacker was a unique and virtually unstoppable combination. But it bred bad habits.

    Being the strongest for so many years meant that he had no fear skating into the middle of the ice with his head down, or having his head down in general. Those habits would be suicide for an average sized player. He was able to get away with those habits until he made it to the NHL. Those head injuries, and just bad luck with other injuries, really stifled what should have been a multiple Hart and Art Ross career.

    But at his best, only Mario was better in the 90's (in my opinion).
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2019
  9. DannyGallivan Your world frightens and confuses me

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    People look at the zero Stanley Cups (and poor showing at the one finals he made) to define Lindros' playoff career. They forget that in many of the earlier series the Flyers played, he was the dominant player and the reason that the Flyers advanced.
     
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  10. MXD Original #4

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    ... Great new adds : Belfour, Keith, MSL and Chara start at the very top of my list, and in that exact order. I'm willing to keep my mind open to the idea that Fedorov, Stewart and Leetch are actually inferior players to Eric Lindros.
     
  11. DannyGallivan Your world frightens and confuses me

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    Kinda, busy, so I'll just drop the tid-bit about Lindros' points per game:

    Lindros is number one in Flyers history in points-per-game average: 1.35 points per game. If you count his Philly years (and really, that's what clearly defines him as a player) only Wayne Gretzky (1.92 points per game), Mario Lemieux (1.88), Mike Bossy (1.497), Sidney Crosby (1.398) and Bobby Orr (1.393) produced points at a better pace. Yes, that was in his prime and therefore we aren't counting any decline that's typical for any player as they age, but it was also including a good chunk of the dead puck era as well. Overall for Lindros' career - including the forgetable New York Rangers, Toronto Maple Leafs and Dallas Stars years - he finished at 1.14 points per game. He ranks 17th all-time in the NHL.

    That's just points, of course. Like Chara, you can't rate Lindros' game without taking into account the massive physical factor as well.

    His regular season plus minus was pretty good too... with only two minor minus seasons when he was at the very end of his career. He doesn't have a large playoff sample size, but he was still a plus player for his career.
     
  12. MXD Original #4

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    I don't know how to account for the DPE regarding Lindros.
    On one hand... he was indeed an offence juggernaut.

    On the other, well, you said it yourself. PPG. That accronym tends to hide something, and I don't really care as to how Lindros would've played in games he didn't play.

    And, something of a wildcard argument : How much credit can we give Lindros for being very, very good in a specific era... when his skillset seems to have been tailored specifically for that era? Of course, I can't prove that Lindros would've had issues in the O6, because he didn't play in that era, but it's striking how Lindros was mostly made to play NHL Hockey as it was played between 1994 and 2003.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2019
  13. ChiTownPhilly Not Too Soft

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    Aaaaah- I finally have my first. And he arrives just in time for me to have an "NR" at my disposal. Another one-way guy, but this time, playing in a soft era. He'll probably make the list, against my will- but hopefully not too soon...
     
  14. bobholly39 Registered User

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    Whose your one-way guy? Lindros or St-Louis?
     
  15. DannyGallivan Your world frightens and confuses me

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    As I said before, his "particular set of skills" would have served him well in any era. He could skate, was a sublime passer and had soft hands around the net.
     
  16. ChiTownPhilly Not Too Soft

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    Setting aside premise-questioning for the time being, did Lindros or St Louis play in a soft era?

    Lindros kind of feels on time. St Louis feels a little early. But those are other conversations.
     
  17. Hockey Outsider Registered User

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    Pretty sure he's referring to Cowley. Excellent regular season offense (one of the top 20 seven-year VsX scores), four years as a first-team all-star, pretty solid playoff numbers for his era - but he was a notoriously bad defensive player, and a lot of his accomplishments came during the war years.
     
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  18. MXD Original #4

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    ...But he wasn't exactly what I'd consider a smart player and his IceQ, while not awful (but we aren't assessing Brad Isbister), wasn't on par with the reminder of his skillset.
     
  19. MXD Original #4

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    While I don't think this is absolutely crucial to his case... Where does Duncan Keith stand in that group?
     
  20. DannyGallivan Your world frightens and confuses me

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    I don't necessarily disagree with that.

    But If so, perhaps his name would have come up a lot, lot sooner.

    A HEALTHY Eric Lindros WITH a high hockey I.Q. ?

    [​IMG]
     
  21. Hockey Outsider Registered User

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    Good catch - updated.
     
  22. Kyle McMahon Registered User

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    Initial thoughts on the new candidates...

    Cowley: If Nels Stewart is a tough case to evaluate, Cowley isn't much easier. One hangup I have with Cowley is that despite scoring at a prodigious rate in his best seasons, Milt Schmidt was seemingly regarded as the more important Bruin. But of course Schmidt made the list long ago, so perhaps it is Cowley's time now.

    Duncan Keith: In a way, he is like Fedorov without an MVP season. Arguably the most important overall player on a team that was generally the best for a reasonably long period of time, winning three Cups. Longevity of prime isn't great. Scott Stevens-ish career if you ignored his Washington seasons.

    Eric Lindros: Contender for my NR ranking in this vote. Never-ending injuries and disputes with management cloud what he accomplished when he actually made it onto the ice. Ultimately his case rests almost entirely on 1995-1999 stretch. Too short by the standards of his era.

    Ed Belfour: Higher than I had him, but wouldn't be an unreasonable add. He wasn't objectively worse at stopping pucks than Roy and Brodeur, they just had longer and more consistent careers. Didn't end on a high note in Dallas, but rebounded nicely in Toronto when most figured he was done.

    Martin St. Louis: Too early. Certainly had a "Cinderella" aspect to his career; very likeable player. Hall of Famer. Not a top 100 player in the history of the game IMO. Division-heavy schedules inflate his regular season scoring totals compared to other contemporaries who didn't play Atlanta, Florida, and Carolina 15-20 times per season.

    Zdeno Chara: Didn't quite have the peak of Chris Pronger, but certainly beats him in longevity and health. I'm not really sure why Chara is here before Serge Savard (or why Pronger went six rounds before either of them), but regardless I think he'd be a reasonable add at this point. I think I might have him as the best of the new candidates at the moment.
     
  23. Dr John Carlson Light is all over us

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    Really like this new group - Chara, Belfour, and Keith were overdue. Particularly Chara.
     
  24. Captain Bowie Registered User

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    Very interesting with the modern guys. I will probably have Fedorov/Mikhailov/Gadsby at or near the top of the list, not sure where to place Cowley yet, but all of the Modern players seem very close, will take a fine tooth comb to separate them even to make up the rest of the list. I had Chara 15 spots higher than Keith on my list, but I do believe they are quite close. Keith's case may be harder to see on first glance though, that may have been the difference in round 1.

    St. Louis and Lindros is an interesting comparison, two careers near polar opposite.

    If Belfour is the next ranked goalie, we just had a run of goalies go in so he may have to wait another round, but I know that's not the right voting mindset so hopefully there will be a solid case for him one way or another, I know @MXD will make one for sure.
     
  25. Mike Farkas Grace Personified

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    Hmph, for me, Chara is kind of a no-go to start here...Keith made the tail end of my list, Chara was a late cut.

    Where is Serge Savard is a valid question at this point...
     

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