Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 17

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
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Lake Memphremagog, QC.
Being a Red Wings fan I actually assumed Hull played the PK more in Dallas due to how Bowman used him in '02. I looked back and saw that actually wasn't the case. The forward pairings during that '02 run were Draper-Maltby, Yzerman-Hull, and Fedorov-Shanahan. I'd be interested to k same responsibilitiesnow how Hull got in the mix with so little PK experience before.

Brett Hull was killing penalties in St.Louis before Dallas.

Brett Hull Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Hull was an excellent PP scorer. The transition to PK is about making the same reads, having the same responsibilities but from a defensive perspective.
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
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13,987
Playoff R-On and R-Off

Bill Gadsby


SeasonGames R ON R OFF INCREASE
1962-6311 1.40 0.75 87%
1963-6414 1.23 0.63 95%
1964-657 0.67 0.50 33%
1965-6612 1.10 1.44 -24%
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I'm pleasantly surprised by Gadsby's results - he significantly outperformed his team at ES in three of the four playoff runs we have data for. His ratio is actually in the same range as Duncan Keith and Larry Robinson (obviously over a much small number of games). Note that this only includes Gadsby's results from ages 35 to 38 in Detroit - he only played 16 playoff games during his entire time in New York. But before we give him too much credit, can anyone comment on his usage in Detroit? Was Pronovost taking all the tough assignments?

Borje Salming

SeasonGames R ON R OFF INCREASE
1973-744 0.60 0.50 20%
1974-757 1.00 0.46 117%
1975-7610 0.86 0.38 123%
1976-779 0.77 0.88 -12%
1977-786 2.00 0.91 120%
1978-796 0.75 1.43 -48%
1979-803 0.17 0.75 -78%
1980-813 0.11 0.40 -72%
1982-834 0.50 2.33 -79%
1985-8610 2.86 0.47 507%
1986-8713 0.92 1.08 -15%
1987-886 1.17 0.47 150%
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Definitely mixed results, but very good overall. In 1986, Salming put up the kind of ratio you'd typically see from a player on a dynasty, on a 57 point team. He was (almost) consistently great in his first five playoff runs but struggled after that. Any ideas as to why? Salming played heavy minutes against teams that were usually much better than the Leafs, but that was true of his teammates as well (ie their opponents generally being much stronger). His overall ratio, although weaker than Gadsby's, is still excellent - in the range of Bourque and Potvin.

Brian Leetch

SeasonGames R ON R OFF INCREASE
1988-894 0.33 0.43 -22%
1990-916 0.75 1.00 -25%
1991-9213 0.77 1.06 -27%
1993-9423 1.86 0.95 97%
1994-9510 0.94 0.44 114%
1995-9611 0.39 1.25 -69%
1996-9715 2.00 1.00 100%
2003-0413 1.10 0.83 32%
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Also a mixed bag. Spectacular results during his well-deserved Conn Smythe run, but the numbers are barely above even without that. His overall career ratio is in line with Zdeno Chara and Larry Murphy. (On second thought, it's really his first three playoff runs where he looks bad relative to his team - he scored more than a point per game during those runs, but gave up a lot of goals against). The other thing to consider - Leetch hardly made the postseason later in his career (just one run after age 28). Not his fault that he was loyal to a trainwreck of an organization, but his per-game numbers don't have much of a "decline" phase to them.
 
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wetcoast

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Nov 20, 2018
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Biggest knock on Gadsby, the so-called "3rd man" behind a supreme duo of competition in Doug Harvey and Red Kelly, is that he lost the Norris to Tom Johnson in 1959, after Tom Johnson got the opportunity to shine in Harvey's absence due to an injury.Kelly was a nonfactor in Norris voting by that point.

Age was not a factor, Gadsby was 31 and Johnson 30.

Maybe that says more about Tom Johnson's hidden abilities than Gadsby's though.

I think the biggest knock on Gadsby is the playoffs as he lags behind both Leetch and Salming in that department.

Although your point is taken and deserves consideration.
 

blogofmike

Registered User
Dec 16, 2010
2,178
926
Wow. Invert the order and you'd be MUCH closer to my initial impression (with two clear exceptions).

We have a lot of deliberations to do...

Haha indeed.

Continuing on Gadsby, as good as the late career playoff ratios look, the RS ratios probably look equally bad. I don't have them, but here's the available +/- for the defenders who played the most on his teams:

1960 NYRGPPTS+/-
Bill Gadsby6531-31
Hary Howell6713-16
Lou Fontinato64134
John Hanna6112-10
Jack Bownass377-5
Irv Spencer323-3
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

1961 NYRGPPTS+/-
Harry Howell7017-8
Bill Gadsby6535-20
Don Johns638-7
Irv Spencer569-5
Lou Fontinato535-10
John Hanna469-2
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

1962 DRWGPPTS+/-
Bill Gadsby7037-12
Marcel Provonost7018-11
Warren Godfrey6917-11
Gerry Odrowski697-12
Leo Labine487-8
Pete Goegan3910-14
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

1963 DRWGPPTS+/-
Bill Gadsby7028-12
Doug Barkley70275
Marcel Provonost691310
Howie Young649-9
Pete Goegan6292
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

1964 DRWGPPTS+/-
Doug Barkley67322
Marcel Provonost67205
Bill Gadsby6418-20
Ron Ingram509-10
John Miszuk4222
Irv Spencer253-3
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

1965 DRWGPPTS+/-
Marcel Provonost681624
Doug Barkley672522
Albert Langois661321
Bill Gadsby611221
Gery Bergman58114
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 

Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
13,301
4,352
I think the biggest knock on Gadsby is the playoffs as he lags behind both Leetch and Salming in that department.

Although your point is taken and deserves consideration.

How do you figure he lags behind Salming? Both players had the misfortune of being stuck on lousy teams for the bulk of their careers, and both appear to have done what they reasonably could against superior opponents in most of their playoff series. Gadsby did get to play for decent Detroit teams at the end of his career, and they fared well. The Red Wings reached the Final three out of the four times they made the playoffs with Gadsby, and were very close to winning twice.
 

Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
13,301
4,352
Haha indeed.

Continuing on Gadsby, as good as the late career playoff ratios look, the RS ratios probably look equally bad. I don't have them, but here's the available +/- for the defenders who played the most on his teams:

1960 NYRGPPTS+/-
Bill Gadsby6531-31
Hary Howell6713-16
Lou Fontinato64134
John Hanna6112-10
Jack Bownass377-5
Irv Spencer323-3
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
1961 NYRGPPTS+/-
Harry Howell7017-8
Bill Gadsby6535-20
Don Johns638-7
Irv Spencer569-5
Lou Fontinato535-10
John Hanna469-2
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
1962 DRWGPPTS+/-
Bill Gadsby7037-12
Marcel Provonost7018-11
Warren Godfrey6917-11
Gerry Odrowski697-12
Leo Labine487-8
Pete Goegan3910-14
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
1963 DRWGPPTS+/-
Bill Gadsby7028-12
Doug Barkley70275
Marcel Provonost691310
Howie Young649-9
Pete Goegan6292
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
1964 DRWGPPTS+/-
Doug Barkley67322
Marcel Provonost67205
Bill Gadsby6418-20
Ron Ingram509-10
John Miszuk4222
Irv Spencer253-3
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
1965 DRWGPPTS+/-
Marcel Provonost681624
Doug Barkley672522
Albert Langois661321
Bill Gadsby611221
Gery Bergman58114
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I'm curious about this as well. Gadsby's terrible +/- while on the Rangers is perfectly understandable, as he was presumably the ice time leader on some really poor squads. Those really ugly minus numbers on the mid-60's Red Wings seem less easy to explain.

For those that may recall: Was Gadsby out on the ice a lot against opponent top lines without proper support, and/or kept separated from Gordie Howe when the Wings were at even strength?
 

ted2019

History of Hockey
Oct 3, 2008
5,492
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pittsgrove nj
Brett Hull was killing penalties in St.Louis before Dallas.

Brett Hull Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Hull was an excellent PP scorer. The transition to PK is about making the same reads, having the same responsibilities but from a defensive perspective.

From the Special Teams Roles posted by Hockey Outsider & Overpass.
These are career averages and in some cases it might make sense to look at players on a year-by-year basis. Brett Hull is an unusual case. Based on my calculations, he went from a miserable 4% of his team’s PK% (1990-93) to a very respectable 36% (1994-1997). I’d expect to see significant variations for Gretzky, Trottier, Yzerman and Stevens.
 

Vilica

Registered User
Jun 1, 2014
425
487
I'm curious about this as well. Gadsby's terrible +/- while on the Rangers is perfectly understandable, as he was presumably the ice time leader on some really poor squads. Those really ugly minus numbers on the mid-60's Red Wings seem less easy to explain.

For those that may recall: Was Gadsby out on the ice a lot against opponent top lines without proper support, and/or kept separated from Gordie Howe when the Wings were at even strength?

I don't have a complete answer to your question, but I went through Gadsby season-by-season in the years prior to plus/minus being officially tracked, and the Rangers were a collective -105 in the years he played for them(-54, +1, -43, +7, -16), and Chicago was -418. If you assume that Gadsby, playing half the game as the #1 defenseman, wore about half that goal differential, that'd mean he could be in the vicinity of a -250 for his career, to go along with his -62 from his officially tracked plus/minus.

Now you may say that Gadsby had some poor squads around him, but he had basically 3 Hall of Fame teammates beside himself on his team for his entire Blackhawks and Rangers career. Now granted more than a few of them were goaltenders, and the players weren't inner circle hall of famers, but you'd think a defenseman who was named to 6 all-star teams would be able to at least win a round in the playoffs before turning 35.

Also, if people are interested in the complete season-by-season Gadsby data, I can post that.
 
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VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,133
6,428
When Hull was racking up 50 goal seasons thanks to elite passer Oates, Hull was a cherry picker and lazy non-backchecker.

Then in Dallas he begrudgedly followed Hitchcock's direction, though with multiple public complaints about style of play, and specialized roles and needs of different players to play differently.

And so he was ready: Bowman, of course, suffers no fools gladly.
 
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Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
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I don't have a complete answer to your question, but I went through Gadsby season-by-season in the years prior to plus/minus being officially tracked, and the Rangers were a collective -105 in the years he played for them(-54, +1, -43, +7, -16), and Chicago was -418. If you assume that Gadsby, playing half the game as the #1 defenseman, wore about half that goal differential, that'd mean he could be in the vicinity of a -250 for his career, to go along with his -62 from his officially tracked plus/minus.

Now you may say that Gadsby had some poor squads around him, but he had basically 3 Hall of Fame teammates beside himself on his team for his entire Blackhawks and Rangers career. Now granted more than a few of them were goaltenders, and the players weren't inner circle hall of famers, but you'd think a defenseman who was named to 6 all-star teams would be able to at least win a round in the playoffs before turning 35.

Also, if people are interested in the complete season-by-season Gadsby data, I can post that.

Appreciate the effort on the goal differential totals, but it is pure speculation that Gadsby would personally account for half of it. For all we know he could have been a positive differential player with some really bad teammates. Having three HOF teammates isn't worth a lot in the Original Six era when top teams could ice an entire six-man unit of HOFers.

Gadsby's teams lost to the eventual champion Canadiens in 1953, 56, and 57. Hard to say they should have won any of those series. The Rangers did lose to the lower-seeded Bruins in 1958, however it should be noted that 4 of 6 games were actually played in Boston due to the circus kicking the Rangers out of MSG, as it unfortunately did every April in that era.
 
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Vilica

Registered User
Jun 1, 2014
425
487
Appreciate the effort on the goal differential totals, but it is pure speculation that Gadsby would personally account for half of it. For all we know he could have been a positive differential player with some really bad teammates. Having three HOF teammates isn't worth a lot in the Original Six era when top teams could ice an entire six-man unit of HOFers.

You're probably right about the speculation, I went through the bad goal differential teams pre-expansion and here's how the plus/minus for the top pairing (by scoring totals) comes out each season.

59-60Rangers -60Gadsby -31/Howell -16Bruins -21Boivin -7/Flaman -4
60-61Bruins -78Mohns -28/Boivin -18Rangers -44Gadsby -20/Howell -8
61-62Bruins -129Mohns -62/Boivin -46Red Wings -35Gadsby -12/Pronovost -11
62-63Bruins -83Mohns -39/Boivin -26Rangers -22Harvey -1/Howell -19
63-64Rangers -56Howell -9/Neilson -24Bruins -42Mohns -19/Johnson -16
64-65Bruins -87Green -44/Boivin -17Rangers -67Howell -13/Neilson -37
65-66Bruins -101Marotte -25/Woytowich -45Rangers -66Howell -20/Neilson -15
66-67Bruins -71Orr +1/Green -10/Marotte -41Red Wings -29Bergman -3/Boivin -19
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

For pure statistical purposes, here are the numbers for Gadsby's teams:

46-47 Hawks -81 (48/60)
47-48 Hawks -30 (60/60)
48-49 Hawks -38 (50/60)
49-50 Hawks -41 (70/70)
50-51 Hawks -109 (25/70) - Hawks were actually exactly even in the 25 games Gadsby played
51-52 Hawks -83 (59/70)
52-53 Hawks -6 (68/70) AS-2
53-54 Hawks -109 (70/70) AS-2
54-55 Hawks -30 in 18 games, Rangers -54 in 52 games (70/70)
55-56 Rangers +1 (70/70) AS-1, Norris-2
56-57 Rangers -43 (70/70) AS-2, Norris-4
57-58 Rangers +7 (65/70) AS-1, Norris-2
58-59 Rangers -16 (70/70) AS-1, Norris-2

59-60 Rangers -60, Gadsby -31 (65/70)
60-61 Rangers -44, Gadsby -20
 
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DN28

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Jan 2, 2014
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Prague
To expand on the discussion about Boris Mikhailov, I´ve decided to share my view of the player. Mikhailov can be a difficult player to assess his value, as he can be easily underrated but also overrated depending on which measure you choose to look at.

He can be underrated if you primarily look at individual WHC awards. Mikhailov, whose international career lasted 12 seasons (1969-1980), has only 2 tournaments, where his play was officially honoured. Although in both cases (WHC 73, WHC 79), Mikhailov was not only an All-Star RW but also Directoriate´s choice for the best forward of the championship. The problem remains in that Mikhailov was usually not considered the best European RW, let alone the best forward or skater. Here´s the list of RWers who were voted into All-Star team instead of Mikhailov:

1969 Nedomansky, 1970 Maltsev, 1971 Vikulov, 1972 Vikulov, (1973 Mikhailov), 1974 Martinec, 1975 Martinec, 1976 Martinec, 1977 Martinec, 1978 Maltsev, (1979 Mikhailov), 1980 no AST voted, although the most likely choice for best RW from Lake Placid Olympics would either be whatever USA RW that was deemed as best, or Sergei Makarov…

So that´s the main thing that Mikhailov “detractors” can use against him in my opinion. What business will Mikhailov even have in the all-time top 100 list if he rarely was the best at his position, let alone the best at forward or skater position in a given season?

Now the positive way to look at Mikhailov´s achievements, and possibly to overrate him, is to look at amazing consistency with regards to his offensive production. If your primary method to determine value of non-NHL European forwards is to look at the scoring tables, you will be impressed by finding out Mikhailov near the top almost regularly. Here´s the list of Mikhailov scoring finishes:

WHC 69 – 14 points in 9 games, 2nd in scoring
WHC 70 – 10 points in 10 games, 7th-8th in scoring
WHC 71 – 10 points in 9 games, 5th in scoring
OG 72 – 2 points in 3 games, well outside top 10 in scoring and approximately 10th in his own team
WHC 72 - 13 points in 10 games, 9th in scoring
SS 72 – 7 points in 8 games based on Richard Bendell´s recount, 6th in overall scoring, 3rd in his own team
WHC 73 - 29 points in 10 games, 2nd in scoring
WHC 74 – 17 points in 10 games, 1st in scoring
SS 74 – 6 points in 7 games, 8th in overall scoring, 4th in his own team
WHC 75 - 15 points in 9 games, 8th in scoring
OG 76 – 4 points in 6 games, well outside top 10 scoring and approximately 10th in his own team
WHC 76 - 13 points in 10 games, 7th in scoring
CC 76 – did not play
WHC 77 - 19 points in 10 games, 2nd in scoring
WHC 78 – 12 points in 10 games, 4th in scoring
WHC 79 – 12 points in 8 games, 5th in scoring
OG 80 – 11 points in 7 games, 6th in scoring

Amazing reliability that Mikhailov finished 14 times in top 10 scoring out of 16 opportunities. Mikhailov offensive production dropped only in two occasions – 1972 Sapporo Olympics and 1976 Innsbruck Olympics. When you, as a Soviet team, went to a major international tournament, you could have relied on Mikhailov that he´s going to be one of your team´s top scorer almost any time. I believe this kind of consistency cannot be matched by any other not-yet-discussed non-NHLer, furthermore it´s better consistency than even Firsov´ and Kharlamov´s one (in terms of longevity of sustained decade+ offensive production).
____________________

I´ll quickly outline Mikhailov career trajectory, as I see it, and I plan to suggest that his pre-Summit Series body of work does not add too much of an all-time value, but his 1973-1980 prime is what constitutes his rightful place in this discussion.

Before 1969
Mikhailov was a prototypical late-bloomer as he was born in June 1944 and started to play in the Soviet league some time in the 1st half of 1960s. He moved from Lokomotiv Moscow to CSKA Moscow in 1967 when he was 23. His 1968 season indicates that he managed the transition into elite team well, scoring 29 goals in 43 games in the League (5th in league scoring, 2nd in his own team). But he still did not make it into National team yet. Mikhailov did not play at OG 1968 and he also received no votes in SPOTY voting.

1969 until 1972
At the age of 24, Mikhailov enters into USSR team. Scores 14 points in 9 games at WHC 69 and finishes 2nd in scoring but gets no award recognition. We have AST voting data for only 5-6 forwards that received the most votes and Mikhailov was not one of them. Furthermore, we have that rare 1969 poll about best players in Europe (that was brought up during last round about Firsov) and Mikhailov again was not one of 14 players that appeared in that poll. His league performance looks to be good (slightly outscored both Kharlamov and Petrov) but decidedly below Spartak´s Yakushev and Starschinov. Spartak managed the rare feat of defeating CSKA for league title. Mikhailov was 5th in SPOTY voting, 4th among forwards, although he was named into Soviet all-star team as 1 of 3 best forwards of the 1969 season.

You can see similar pattern of good but nowhere near elite play for the following seasons. WHC 70, Mikhailov adds another top 10 scoring finish but AST voting data reveals that Mikhailov got 1 single vote which technically made him “16th best forward” of the championship. As far as 1970 League play, nothing extraordinary as Mikhailov was outscored by Petrov but he at least outscored Kharlamov to a large degree. Most importantly, Mikhailov received zero votes in SPOTY voting (13 different players including 8 forwards received at least a vote). Looks like Soviet observers thought Mikhailov´s production was dependant on his superior linemates at this point yet. Four different CSKA forwards received some voting support instead of him. Those 4 were Vikulov, Kharlamov, Firsov and Petrov. No Soviet all-star team either.

WHC 71, another top 10 scoring finish but AST voting data reveals Mikhailov got 2 single votes which technically made him “12th best forward” of the championship on this occasion, assuming one even takes these fringe votes seriously. 1971 League play – again, good but nothing extraordinary. Third in league scoring behind one teammate (Kharlamov), and behind league-leading Maltsev from Dynamo Moscow. Ultimately 9th in 1971 SPOTY voting, 6th among forwards, no Soviet all-star team appearance.

1972, Mikhailov disappoints at Olympics by scoring mere 2 points. He then compensates to some degree two months later at World Championship by adding another top 10 scoring finish. But again… no award recognition though this time Mikhailov was voted as 8th best forward according to AST voting. 1972 League play seemed a little bit worse: 6th in league scoring, but just 5th in his own team, as his teammates Kharlamov, Vikulov, Petrov and Blinov finished ahead. The scoring race was won by either Kharlamov or Vikulov who recorded 9-10 more points in the same amount of games (depends on the source). How much appreciation Soviet observers showed for Mikhailov after this season? None, Mikhailov got no votes in SPOTY voting (9 different players including 5 forwards received at least a vote), so Mikhailov could still have been technically the 10th best Soviet player and 6th best forward which would be OK but he wasn´t worth a single vote. Soviet observers clearly preferred Maltsev, Kharlamov, Vikulov, Yakushev and Firsov (top 5 vote-getters) above all other forwards. Of course, no appearance in Soviet all-star team either.

Overall it´s in my view clear that Mikhailov was AT BEST just 6th best Soviet forward during this period. Firsov, Kharlamov, Maltsev, Vikulov and Starshinov delivered stronger results by almost any measure. Mikhailov still needs to be given credit for simply being a reliable and meaningful component of the Soviet machine in this time period but it´s difficult to find strong all-time value in this stretch vis-à-vis all other candidates in this round, when you´re hardly even a top 10 forward / top 20 player outside North America (counting great Czechoslovaks and Swedes from before Summit-Series-era too..).

Mikhailov´s 1973-1980 prime
Only when Mikhailov became 28 year-old man, he started to make serious impact not just on scoring lists but also in voting and awards lists as well. He´s one of the guys who definitely impressed by their play in Summit Series, when he still did not play with Kharlamov on one line. After their reunification, Mikhailov-Petrov-Kharlamov destroys the competition at WHC 73, the ‘troika’ comfortably leads the scoring and Mikhailov himself records 29 points in 10 games, which was good enough for 2nd place scoring finish, All-Star Team RW recognition and also Directoriate´s Best Forward award, so Mikhailov was even preferred to prime Kharlamov and Petrov here. 1973 League play was in line with his previous seasons, i.e. 5th in league scoring, 3rd in his own team behind Vikulov and approximately 11 points behind Petrov. After these results, Soviet observers voted Mikhailov as 5th best Soviet, 4th among forwards, but he did make it into Soviet all-star team as 1 of 3 best forwards of the season.

WHC 74, Mikhailov seemingly continues with his higher-standard play now, as he wins the championship´s scoring with 17 points. Despite of this effort, top Czech forwards were deemed as somewhat better, Mikhailov´s rival at RW position, Vladimir Martinec leads all players in AST voting and Vaclav Nedomansky takes the Directoriate´s Best Forward award home, so Mikhailov gets no award recognition. Still, Boris was voted as 4th best forward by the writers so some appreciation was still there. Otherwise, his domestic season looks to be one of his worst. Apparently only 12th in league scoring, or at least outside of top 10 for sure, and 3rd in his own team behind Kharlamov and Vikulov. Mikhailov finished almost 20 points behind league-leading Anisin from the Soviet Wings of Moscow which even defeated Mikhailov´s CSKA team for the league title! Despite this perceived below-average league play, Mikhailov ended up 2nd in SPOTY voting, 1st among forwards, plus Soviet all-star team.

Mikhailov turned 30 for the following season but showed no signs of decline. 1975 season started with the 2nd Summit Series, this time with favourable result for Soviets. Mikhailov contributed with 6 points in 7 games – good enough for 8th in overall scoring of this series. WHC 75, another strong, above ppg, top 10 scoring finish and… another absence in the tournament´s All-Star team. We have no data beyond the actual 6 players who were honoured so no additional firm conclusions about Mikhailov´s performance can be made. League, Mikhailov seemingly compensates previous season´s somewhat weaker performance, as he was 2nd in league scoring just 2 points behind his linemate Petrov. At the end of the season, Mikhailov adds another 5th placement in SPOTY voting and another Soviet all-star team nod.

The career continues with notable decrease in form during ´76 season. We´re looking at Mikhailov´s clear down-season over his 73-80 prime. Registers only 4 points at OG 76 (barely 10th in his own team), then proceeds with another good-but-not-great WHC 76 performance (I feel like I´m copying myself..) – 13 points, 7th in scoring, no award recognition (no data available beyond the actual WHC All-Star team). Temporary decline is shown on a domestic level too. Although Boris finishes 7th in league scoring just behind one teammate (Petrov), CSKA loses the league title to Spartak Moscow, led this time by outstanding campaign from Shalimov and Yakushev (1st and 2nd in scoring respectively). As a result of all this, Mikhailov finds himself in trouble to even get some voting support from Soviet observers – only 10th in SPOTY voting, 8th among forwards and not named into Soviet all-star team as 1 of 3 best forwards of the season.

Results from following 1977 season indeed supports notion of Mikhailov being 3rd best Soviet of the season, as he was voted as such by Soviet observers behind Petrov and Balderis. In the League, Mikhailov ended 4th in scoring behind 2nd Petrov and also behind the league-leading Balderis from Dinamo Riga. At the WHC, Mikhailov is second to Petrov in the scoring chart (19 points to Petrov´s 21), but it is Petrov and Balderis who got honoured by the media as all-star C and LW, while Martinec is called all-star RW for fourth time in a row instead of Mikhailov. Balderis was also named as the Best Forward by Directoriate. We have no information past the 1st AST unfortunately… Something to keep in mind in terms of putting things into context is that this is no 1987 where you can reasonably infer that 3rd best Soviet = 3rd best player outside NHL. Soviets lost the Championship title for the 2nd time in row to Czechs with plenty of their players playing in their primes. Moreover, USSR this time lost to Swedes for the silver too. For the season overall, I´d prefer at least 3 Czechs and 1 Swede to Mikhailov in addition to Balderis and Petrov.

However, Mikhailov kept aging like a fine wine. 1978 is the first season where he wins the SPOTY award as he leads Soviets to victory at heated ´78 WHC in Prague. Finishes 4th in scoring, although he misses again the 1st WHC All-Star team. At least we have the 2nd AST where it´s shown that Mikhailov was a 2nd teamer to Maltsev´s 1st AST RW… I do remember about this season that Mikhailov also did well particularly at the Izvestia Cup in December where he did grab his 1st all-star nod from that short tournament. Still, some part of Mikhailov´s this year´s popularity had to originate from his league play, where he ended up 2nd in scoring just one point behind Petrov. Mikhailov is obviously member of Soviet all-star team as well, just as he was previous season.

Now we´re finally seeing what was clearly Mikhailov´s peak signature season - surprisingly when he was terribly old for all Eastern European standards of longevity. 34 years old Mikhailov is honoured as WHC 79 All-Star RW and also as the Best Forward by the Directoriate. He finishes 5th in scoring as the Soviets remarkably calmly float through the tournament to the victory without slightest setbacks. Part of the 1979 season was also Challenge Cup event, where Soviets famously beat the NHL All-Star team (2 wins vs. 1 loss) – Mikhailov with his 3+0 led his team in scoring and was also awarded with MVP of the series. In the League, Mikhailov finishes 3rd, and 2nd in his own team once again behind Petrov. At the end of the season, newly created European Golden Stick for the best player in Europe was awarded to Mikhailov – more than 500 writers from various European countries decisively preferred the Soviet captain to anybody else.

Mikhailov didn´t slow down as much for his last international 1980 season. Adds another top 10 scoring finish at OG 80, also ends up 5th in league scoring with 50 points in 41 games. It doesn´t seem that the notorious “miracle on ice” upset was put to blame on Mikhailov´s shoulders, as he was 3rd in SPOTY voting, and even more importantly 2nd in Izvestia voting for the best European player. Makarov won both of these awards but otherwise I don´t see any other player with better results than Mikhailov from this particular season among the pool of non-NHL Europeans.

Then played just 15 games during 1981 season before he called it a career. So to summarize: Mikhailov´s 1979 peak is as good as any top season from other Euro stars within roughly 1965-1990 timeframe, as he was undoubtedly thought as the best European at the time of Soviet hockey program arguably peaking. Seasons 1978 and 1980 are part of his peak as he was seemingly close enough to be in the conversation about best player outside North America. 1973, 1974, 1975 and 1977 are important part of Mikhailov´s legacy as well – he belonged to broader range of best forwards in Europe, albeit not ever necessarily the best even at his own position. 1976 is a clear down-season where he barely cracks into top 10 Soviets with his name appearing on 4 ballots out of 64 voters. Similarly, Mikhailov´s 1969-1972 early international career does add up to his legacy to the extent that being just an average piece of the puzzle of the top National team at the time is a value in and of itself.
 
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DannyGallivan

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Aug 25, 2017
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I find it disturbing that someone would leave Gadsby off their list.

I will likely vote him number one this round. IMO, he should be ahead of Pronger & Stevens who are already ranked at 59 & 64.
With all due respect to Gadsby, he was not better than Pronger or Stevens.
 

wetcoast

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Nov 20, 2018
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How do you figure he lags behind Salming? Both players had the misfortune of being stuck on lousy teams for the bulk of their careers, and both appear to have done what they reasonably could against superior opponents in most of their playoff series. Gadsby did get to play for decent Detroit teams at the end of his career, and they fared well. The Red Wings reached the Final three out of the four times they made the playoffs with Gadsby, and were very close to winning twice.

I'm on my phone right now but his scoring went down to Dionne like proportions and as Blog of Mike has tabled his regular season plus/minus doesn't really square with the notion of his reputation of defensive play.

I'll have more later in the week as it's a busy time and hard to do stuff from the phone.
 

wetcoast

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Nov 20, 2018
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With all due respect I disagree and I am likely one of the few who saw all 3 play. I would be interested in C1958's opinion.

No doubt people can have different eye test views on the same player but Pronger and Steven's were playoff beasts compared to Gadbsy.
 

Canadiens1958

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Nov 30, 2007
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Hmm...surprised to see the separation of Stevens and Pronger in such a dramatic way. Interesting.

Filtering the jibber-jabber put forth about +/- for defencemen which attempts to link pairings or fellow defencemen on a team to the lead defenceman, a different picture appears.

Forwards, especially centers have the greatest influence. Prime example, Lou Fontinato was traded to the Canadiens and led the NHL in +/-. Canadiens had five excellent defensive centers. Henri Richard, Jean Beliveau, Ralph Backstrom, Phil Goyette, Don Marshall. Same offseason Gadsby was traded to Detroit. One viable defensive center - Delvecchio.

Gadsby was -12, Fontinato was +55.
 

Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
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I'm on my phone right now but his scoring went down to Dionne like proportions and as Blog of Mike has tabled his regular season plus/minus doesn't really square with the notion of his reputation of defensive play.

I'll have more later in the week as it's a busy time and hard to do stuff from the phone.

This is simply false (unless you mean it literally).

During Gadsby's prime offensive years with the Rangers, he scored at a 0.67 points-per-game pace in the three regular seasons that the Rangers made the playoffs. He had 10 points in 16 playoff games (0.62 ppg), and led his team in playoff scoring in 1956. Keep in mind, 10 of those games came against the 5-in-a-row Montreal team. Certainly no reason to complain about Gadsby's production in NY.

In Detroit, Gadsby was clearly in decline as an offensive player. He averged 0.30 ppg in the four seasons the Red Wings made the playoffs with him. In the playoffs, his scoring output actually increased to 0.36 ppg. Seems he exceeded offensive expectations if anything.

The Chicago sample size, which is a single seven-game series against Montreal in 1953, saw Gadsby with only one point. But he was only 9th in scoring on his own team with 22 regular season points that year. It's not like he was being counted on to drive the offense. One single extra point somewhere in this series would have put him right in line with his regular season average. Chicago pushed Montreal to a seventh game.

I see no way in which this is comparable to Dionne, who had four playoffs in a row at his peak where his numbers are objectively awful. Dionne's career playoff numbers as a whole are not good either, considering all but six of his playoff games came in his prime. Gadsby's playoff career ppg average is actually nearly at the same level as his career regular season average. This is actually very impressive, considering so many of his playoff games came when he was past his prime in Detroit. Gadsby broke the 30-point barrier nine times in his career; his team only made the playoffs in three of those years.

I am glad you made this comparison though, even if I staunchly disagree with it, as it prompted a deeper look into Gadsby's playoff career. These are only the numbers, which never tell the full story, but what they do tell us paints Gadsby in a pretty positive light. At worst, he seems to have maintained his regular season production in the playoffs, and in fact I'd suggest he actually stepped it up slightly considering his team was an underdog in 9 out of 11 career playoff series that he played in (and one of those two times they were favoured, they didn't get the benefit of home ice advantage due to the circus at MSG).
 
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VMBM

And it didn't even bring me down
Sep 24, 2008
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Mikhailov didn´t slow down as much for his last international 1980 season. Adds another top 10 scoring finish at OG 80, also ends up 5th in league scoring with 50 points in 41 games. It doesn´t seem that the notorious “miracle on ice” upset was put to blame on Mikhailov´s shoulders, as he was 3rd in SPOTY voting, and even more importantly 2nd in Izvestia voting for the best European player. Makarov won both of these awards but otherwise I don´t see any other player with better results than Mikhailov from this particular season among the pool of non-NHL Europeans.

Based on eye test, I'd disagree with that somewhat; when watching the games that CSKA played against NHL teams in 1979-80 as well as the available games from Lake Placid, I think Mikhailov and his line were already past their prime; for example, they failed to score in many key games, like vs the Canadiens and the Sabres (4-2 and 6-1 losses, respectively) or vs USA in Lake Placid; the problem was also that Tikhonov relied on them too much and they couldn't quite deliver.
I think Mikhailov's good performance in the SPOTY/international voting had also a little bit to do with the 'generational change' that was going on at the time, not only in the Soviet Union but also in Czechoslovakia; many of the old stars were on their way out or had quit, and the many of the new ones hadn't fully emerged yet. That is not to say that Mikhailov wasn't still a top notch player in 1980, but still I wouldn't rate his last full season among his best ones.
 
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DN28

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Based on eye test, I'd disagree with that somewhat; when watching the games that CSKA played against NHL teams in 1979-80 as well as the available games from Lake Placid, I think Mikhailov and his line were already past their prime; for example, they failed to score in many key games, like vs the Canadiens and the Sabres (4-2 and 6-1 losses, respectively) or vs USA in Lake Placid; the problem was also that Tikhonov relied on them too much and they couldn't quite deliver.
I think Mikhailov's good performance in the SPOTY/international voting had also a little bit to do with the 'generational change' that was going on at the time, not only in the Soviet Union but also in Czechoslovakia; many of the old stars were on their way out or had quit, and the many of the new ones hadn't fully emerged yet. That is not to say that Mikhailov wasn't still a top notch player in 1980, but still I wouldn't rate his last full season among his best ones.

True, I also recall reading various messages about Mikhailov-Petrov-Kharlamov line declining in this season. Their decline also as one of the main reasons for OG 1980 upset by the USA team... But Mikhailov´s 1980 voting record still impresses me:

1980 Soviet Player of the Year

1) Sergey Makarov (F, CSKA) 156 (43-10-7)
2) Vladimir Krutov (F, CSKA) 68 (6-15-20)
3) Boris Mikhailov (F, CSKA) 49 (11-5-6)
4) Aleksandr Maltsev (F, Dinamo) 38 (4-11-4)
5) Valery Vasilyev (D, Dinamo) 27 (1-9-6)
6) Valery Kharlamov (F, CSKA) 19 (2-6-1)
7) Vladimir Myshkin (G, Krylya Sovietov) 9 (0-2-5)
8) Vladislav Tretyak (G, CSKA) 7 (1-1-2)
9) Yury Lebedev (F, Krylya Sovietov) 6 (0-2-2)
10) Aleksandr Yakushev (F, Spartak) 5 (0-2-1)
11) Nikolay Drozdetsky (F, CSKA) 5 (0-1-3)
12) Mikhail Varnakov (F, Gorky) 4 (1-0-1)
13) Vasily Pervukhin (D, Dinamo) 4 (0-2-0)
14) Aleksandr Skvortsov (F, Gorky) 4 (0-1-2)
15) Viktor Shalimov (F, Spartak) 4 (0-0-4)
16) Helmuts Balderis (F, CSKA) 2 (0-1-0)
"") Aleksey Kasatonov (D, CSKA) 2 (0-1-0)
18) Arkady Rudakov (F, Spartak) 2 (0-0-2)
19) Zinetula Bilyaletdinov (D, Dinamo) 1 (0-0-1)
"") Viktor Doroshchenko (G, Spartak) 1 (0-0-1)
"") Vladimir Golikov (F, Dinamo) 1 (0-0-1)


1980 European Golden Stick (Izvestia Trophy)

1) Sergey Makarov 550 (137-62-27)
2) Boris Mikhaylov 384
3) Valery Vasilyev 175
4) Mats Näslund 166
5) Jukka Porvari 163
6) Vladislav Tretyak 143
7) Vladimir Krutov 114
8) Peter Šťastný 102
9) Pelle Lindbergh 81
10) Aleksandr Maltsev 77


Note that Peter Stastny was just about to emigrate to Canada and play his first NHL season. 1980-81 Stastny scored 109 points and was 6th in scoring in his initial NHL season. Back to 1980, 35 y/o Mikhailov was still considered as vastly superior to 23 y/o Stastny by European observers.
 

MXD

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Oct 27, 2005
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True, I also recall reading various messages about Mikhailov-Petrov-Kharlamov line declining in this season. Their decline also as one of the main reasons for OG 1980 upset by the USA team... But Mikhailov´s 1980 voting record still impresses me:


1980 European Golden Stick (Izvestia Trophy)

1) Sergey Makarov 550 (137-62-27)
2) Boris Mikhaylov 384
3) Valery Vasilyev 175
4) Mats Näslund 166
5) Jukka Porvari 163
6) Vladislav Tretyak 143
7) Vladimir Krutov 114
8) Peter Šťastný 102
9) Pelle Lindbergh 81
10) Aleksandr Maltsev 77


Note that Peter Stastny was just about to emigrate to Canada and play his first NHL season. 1980-81 Stastny scored 109 points and was 6th in scoring in his initial NHL season. Back to 1980, 35 y/o Mikhailov was still considered as vastly superior to 23 y/o Stastny by European observers.

I'd also point out that Mats Naslund was also considered better than Peter Stastny, and while Naslund was a lot of things, "a better player than Peter Stastny" isn't one of them.
 
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