Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 17

[TheDevilMadeMe]

While browsing the HOH centers project for posts about Lach and Stewart, I came across a tidbit where @quoipourquoi showed that Fedorov's short 1993-94 to 1995-96 statistical peak (3 of his 4 top 20 finishes) corresponded exactly to the years Paul Coffey was in Detroit.

 

[blogofmike]

Disappointed in no Eddie Gerard or Serge Savard.

To posters who saw all of them play: Wasn't Bill Gadsby a good notch above Salming and Leetch?

Not from your target demo, but I believe I didn't rank Gadsby. I may have been overly harsh on the post 1960-side of his career, which seems worse than Leetch's dropoff from 97-98 onwards. But Leetch killed a lot of penalties, was just as good offensively (and that's most of Gadsby's value), and Leetch has better playoffs than Gadsby even if you ignore the 1994 Superman run. Leetch was also 3rd in points at the 1996 World Cup with a Canada/World Cup single tournament record plus/minus of +10.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

A quick and dirty argument for Bill Durnan...(I won't repost a bunch of stuff from previous discussions, it's all there for everyone to see).

When Durnan finished his career, it is not outlandish that he might have been considered the best ever at his position. This was an argument that was successfully made for Vezina, who has been on the list for a while. The contemporary challenger to Vezina's claim, Clint Benedict, also got elected two rounds ago. Charlie Gardiner was the next goaltender who could possibly make this claim, and he topped voting last round. Finally, Durnan's contemporary Frank Brimsek has a solid case for retiring as the game's greatest netminder, and he too was listed ages ago.

This will apply to Broda's candidacy as well, but there seems to be a peculiar gap forming between the WWI era of goaltenders and the WWII era. Questions were raised, reasonably so in my opinion, about the importance and quality of goaltending in the pre-forward pass era on back. It seems to be generally accepted that the position evolved continuously and grew in importance as the years went on. The high rankings of Plante, Hall, and Sawchuk would indicate that the position had definitely "arrived" by the early 1950s, and unless evidence to the contrary is presented, it seems reasonable to assume this growth was fairly linear.

Yet here we stand with Vezina, Benedict, and Gardiner now listed, while Brimsek is the lone goaltender from a pretty broad expanse (1935-1950 or so) to make the list. At this point, keeping Durnan or Broda out again would be hard to fathom. Unless somebody wants to argue that the quality of goaltending circa 1920 was superior to the quality circa 1950. Because the second-best goaltender from the WWI era (deemed to be Benedict by our panel) is already going to be at least a handful of spots better than the second-best from the WWII era (be it Durnan or Broda), despite apparent universal agreement that the goaltender position improved considerably between the two time periods.

I like looking at things from a meta-perspective like this, but I come to the opposite conclusion as you.

Vezina was most likely the best goalie of the 1920s. Gardiner was definitely the best goalie of the 1930s. They both should go decisively over the 2nd and 3rd best goalies of the 1940s.

Benedict may have gone a bit too early, but either way, we are definitely going to have the 2nd and 3rd best of the 1940s ahead of whoever you may think the 3rd best of the 1920s would be or the 2nd best of the 1930s.

 

[VanIslander]

Lots of great points already!

(Making up for lost time)

 

[blogofmike]

Ken Hitchcock and Scott Bowman both wanted him around when they were winning Cups. Stewart has been described as lazy/floater to the extreme...but two Hart Trophies suggest this has to have been exaggerated to some extent.

In addition to Hull leading the playoffs in goals in 2002, Bowman gave Brett Hull more PK time than Sergei Fedorov.

 

[danincanada]

In addition to Hull leading the playoffs in goals in 2002, Bowman gave Brett Hull more PK time than Sergei Fedorov.

Being a Red Wings fan I actually assumed Hull played the PK more in Dallas due to how Bowman used him in '02. I looked back and saw that actually wasn't the case. The forward pairings during that '02 run were Draper-Maltby, Yzerman-Hull, and Fedorov-Shanahan. I'd be interested to know how Hull got in the mix with so little PK experience before.

 

[MXD]

This will apply to Broda's candidacy as well, but there seems to be a peculiar gap forming between the WWI era of goaltenders and the WWII era. Questions were raised, reasonably so in my opinion, about the importance and quality of goaltending in the pre-forward pass era on back. It seems to be generally accepted that the position evolved continuously and grew in importance as the years went on. The high rankings of Plante, Hall, and Sawchuk would indicate that the position had definitely "arrived" by the early 1950s, and unless evidence to the contrary is presented, it seems reasonable to assume this growth was fairly linear.

Yet here we stand with Vezina, Benedict, and Gardiner now listed, while Brimsek is the lone goaltender from a pretty broad expanse (1935-1950 or so) to make the list. At this point, keeping Durnan or Broda out again would be hard to fathom. Unless somebody wants to argue that the quality of goaltending circa 1920 was superior to the quality circa 1950. Because the second-best goaltender from the WWI era (deemed to be Benedict by our panel) is already going to be at least a handful of spots better than the second-best from the WWII era (be it Durnan or Broda), despite apparent universal agreement that the goaltender position improved considerably between the two time periods.

Great point, actually, but...

We do have to care about the specifics of each player. In Durnan's case, a short NHL career. In Broda's case.... to be honest, his crazy longevity and playoff performance is the reason why he's a candidate. I'm not sure Broda was a better netminder than... say... Roy Worters. But Broda won 302 games and 13 playoff rounds. Worters won 171 games and a grand total of zero playoff rounds.

EDIT : I'm totally on your side of the argument otherwise.

 

[danincanada]

While browsing the HOH centers project for posts about Lach and Stewart, I came across a tidbit where @quoipourquoi showed that Fedorov's short 1993-94 to 1995-96 statistical peak (3 of his 4 top 20 finishes) corresponded exactly to the years Paul Coffey was in Detroit.

Coffey and Fedorov definitely clicked and played a lot on the PP but with regards to '95-96 I think the Russian 5 had a bigger impact because that's the season where they spent more time together. During '94 and the shortened season I could see Coffey having a big impact.

It wasn't just about Coffey though, it also coincides with Bowman really laying down the law in terms of the system they played and ice-time. It caused Coffey to get the boot and the team didn't really have any big scorers again until after Bowman left.

 

[overpass]

Lach's runner up Hart finish in 1951-52 was largely due to his performance with Maurice Richard out of the lineup.

In the center's project, @overpass noted how strong Lach's performance was in 1951-52 when Maurice Richard was injured:



Here's a contemporary source on Lach's play during the season:



The Montreal Gazette - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

I just went to nhl.com’s game log for Lach (new since the centre project) to check the numbers here again.

Elmer Lach Stats and News

Maurice Richard missed games from January 17 to January 27 inclusive, and February 7 to March 13 inclusive. Lach has 3 goals, 18 assists, and 21 points in 22 games without Richard, and 12 goals, 32 assists, and 44 points in 48 games with Richard. So his scoring rate without Richard was very slightly better, 0.95 to 0.92 — essentially the same, but at least it didn’t decrease.

Montreal wen 13-6-3 without Richard and had no trouble scoring goals without him(72 goals in 22 games). It was actually the 21 year old rookies Dickie Moore (16 goals, 27 points) and Bernie Geoffrion (14 goals, 23 points) who led the way offensively without Richard. Of course they may have benefitted from Lach's playmaking and defensive play.

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?agg...r=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=points,goals,assists
(Did you know the nhl.com stats page could do this? Scoring totals from January 17, 1952 to March 13, 1952 for the Montreal Canadiens.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

A couple of articles from late in Turk Broda's career (1949-1951):

At the age of 34, Broda was given a lot of credit for Toronto's third straight Cup victory in 1949 (awarded the retroactive Conn Smythe by the HHOF/SIHR study group):

The Maple Leafs were kings of the hockey world on Monday and goalie Walter (Turk) Broda wore the biggest crown.
...
The victory gave Toronto three modern NHL records: Three straight Stanley Cup titles, a four-game sweep of the final playoff round two years in a row, and a grand total of six Cup triumphs.

At the end, the Leafs, and 14,544 happy home fans combined to cheer Broda, the sage in the game who took the wind out of Detroit's sails. The 34-year old Toronto goalie limited the regular season NHL champions to an average of less than 2 goals per contest in the four playoff games.

Maple Leafs Rule Hockey, The Telegraph-Herald, Apr 18, 1949

A preview of the 1949-50 season talks about how Broda is the oldest player in the NHL, but still key to the Leafs remaining on top:

Toronto Maple Leafs head into the new National Hockey League season with virtually the same hustling, bashing squad that trampled all opponents in the Stanley Cup playoffs last spring.

(article then talks about how other clubs may have improved while the Leafs remained the same)

Smythe says there's no worry for the Leafs in the question mark some see in the squad. It lies in the aging eyes and limbs of goaltender Walter (Turk) Broda.

At 35, the Turk is the oldest player in the NHL. But in training camp, he looks as agile as ever.

(Article then talks about the defensemen and forwards on the team)

Leafs Rely on Broda - Old Man River!, Leader Post, Oct 4, 1949

Leafs slumped early in 1949-50 and Broda was ordered to lose 7 pounds and threatened to be sent to the minors:

Mayer, Miguay called up by slumping Leafs - Young Goalie To Replace Broda Who Is Told To Lose Some Weight, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, Nov 30, 1949

By 1950-51, Broda (still the oldest player in the NHL) was splitting time with "star rookie" Al Rollins. Heading into the playoffs, Rollins appeared to have taken the #1 job, but an injury to Rollins opened the door to Broda playing the majority of the playoffs:

Rollins May Play in NHL Playoffs - Star Rookie Goalie Surprises in Recovery from Knee Injury, The Calgary Herald, Apr 6, 1951

Toronto ended up winning the 1951 Cup (their 4th in 5 years) with Broda playing the majority of the games. Broda was given a lot of credit by the home crowd for the win:

The crowd shouted for veteran Turk Broda, the greatest playoff goalie of them all, who played two games against the Canadiens (in the finals), and all but one period of the six-game semifinal against the Boston Bruins because of an injury to Al Rollins. But Broda was too shy and fought off teammates who tried to drag him to the microphone

Toronto Wins Stanley Cup Fourth Time in Five Years - Primeau Completes Grand Slam, Richard Individual Playoff Star, The Calgary Herald, Apr 23, 1951


Turk Broda was great in the playoffs as early as 1938:

I questioned how valuable Broda was considering his team's defense and coach, but as early as 1938 he seems to have been proving himself in the playoffs. Grant the second round against Chicago got ugly, but I really feel like I bought a little too much into the "system" arguments.

1938 Semi-Finals: 1 seed vs 1 seed - (BOS better regular season record)
G1: 1-0(2OT)
G2: 2-1, *Leafs claim Broda is robbed of second shutout
G3: 3-2(OT)

Game 2 Summary:Sands given credit for GTG in 3rd period; Davidson, Fowler, Horner all claim goal never crosses the line

Art Ross: "We out played them all the way, but they beat us because Broda played a swell game and had lots of luck."

Tiny Thompson after the series:

"It was a great series and Turk Broda played a big part. He really was sensational." We remarked that Eddie Shore was playing forward part of the time to which "Tiny" replied that the Bruins were all forwards during that series.

"Just leaving you back there all alone for them to break through and snipe at?" it was suggested. That was the style of play the Bruins had decided on, he said. Their object was to get the first goal and then tighten right up on the defence. But the Bruins were unable to get that first goal and so lost the series.

Shore's Thoughts:

 

[blogofmike]

Leaving this alone for the rest of today, but this is my first impressions ballot. Subject to change if anyone wants to convince me otherwise.

Brett Hull

Bill Durnan

Turk Broda

Sergei Fedorov

Boris Mikhailov

Elmer Lach

Brian Leetch

Nels Stewart

Borje Salming

Bill Gadsby

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I like looking at things from a meta-perspective like this, but I come to the opposite conclusion as you.

Vezina was most likely the best goalie of the 1920s. Gardiner was definitely the best goalie of the 1930s. They both should go decisively over the 2nd and 3rd best goalies of the 1940s.

Benedict may have gone a bit too early, but either way, we are definitely going to have the 2nd and 3rd best of the 1940s ahead of whoever you may think the 3rd best of the 1920s would be or the 2nd best of the 1930s.

See, this is what I'm not so sure about. There are plenty of examples on the list of 2nd/3rd best of an era ranking ahead of or equal to the best from another (reasonably so). Of all the positions, goaltender seems to be the most obvious to display this phenomenon, particularly when discussing eras where regular position players were still stepping into net to substitute from time to time, and not faring significantly worse in some instances.

As you well know, I'm pretty far towards the end of the spectrum that treats all eras equally. (I've still got a couple old guys from the top half of my list that aren't up for voting yet). But pre-forward pass goaltending is the one position/era where I'm pretty accepting of discounting due to era. Ironically, I seem to actually be in the minority in this instance.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Turk Broda's All-Star record:

1st Team All Star (1941, 1948)
2nd Team All Star (1942)
"3rd Team All Star" (1943, 1947, 1949, 1950)

3rd Team AS is based off the same voting that gives the official 1st and 2nd Teams.

Turk Broda Pros:

Excellent longevity. In 1949, he was the oldest player in the NHL. He then played 2 more seasons, including being a key part to the 1951 Cup win.

Broda regular season = 629 GP. 304W - 222L - 102T
Durnan regular season = 383 GP. 208W - 112L - 62T

Broda playoffs = 101 GP. 60W - 39L
Durnan playoffs = 45 GP. 27W - 18L

Playoffs. Broda led the playoffs in GAA 4 straight years from 1948-1951 at the ages of 33-36. 4 Cups in 5 years, 5 Cups overall, seems to have been a big part of those Cups. Retroactive Conn Smythe in 1949. Not just a late bloomer, as he was highly praised for his age 23 playoffs in 1938, as well.

Broda regular season GAA = 2.53. Playoff GAA = 1.98
Durnan regular season GAA = 2.36. Playoff GAA = 2.07

Durability. From Broda's 2nd NHL season in 1937-38 at the age of 23, until 1949-50 at the age of 35, Broda only missed 3 total games that weren't related to the World War 2! And 2 of those were in 1949-50 when he was apparently being punished for being overweight.

Consistently good in the regular season. From 1940-41 to 1949-50, Broda finished top 3 in All Star voting every season, except for the 3 he missed all or most of due to World War 2.

Turk Broda Cons

Regular season peak. The All Star voting and opinions given in newspaper articles agree that he was a little behind Frank Brimsek and Bill Durnan in the regular season when their careers overlapped. Broda was a First Team All Star twice when he led the league in GAA. Other than those two years, he was always behind Brimsek and Durnan in All Star voting (but always ahead of everyone else).

Durnan's All-Star record is obviously much better, though the waters are muddied by 1) the 1st Team AS always going to the GAA leader; 2) Durnan winning the 1st Team in 1944, 1945, and 1946 over essentially zero competition due to WW2 (Brimsek missed 1/4 of 1946 and Broda and Mowers missed most of the season).

Bill Durnan All Star record:

1st Team All Star (1944, 1945, 1946, 1947, 1949, 1950)
3rd Team All Star (1948)

Even with the two caveats above, it's still clear based on contemporary articles and otherwise that Durnan was a better regular season goalie when he was on the ice, albeit for a significantly shorter time than Broda's career.

Doesn't seem to have been considered "the best in the NHL" at any given time like contemporaries Brimsek and Durnan were. Praise for Broda from contemporaries seems to be of the "best playoff goalie" variety but not "best goalie (period)."

___________________

My take: In the goalies project, I decided that I slightly prefer Broda's long consistent regular season prime and excellent playoff resume over Durnan's shorter, higher prime ,combined with a hit-or-miss playoff resume. I'm open to having my opinion changed, but so far, it hasn't. But it's awfully close and I wouldn't fault anyone for voting them in the opposite order.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I'm still not feeling either goalie at this point...there's enough uncertainty about how good they really were for me, I remain unconvinced...

I think those defensemen deserve a really long look though...

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Great point, actually, but...

We do have to care about the specifics of each player. In Durnan's case, a short NHL career. In Broda's case.... to be honest, his crazy longevity and playoff performance is the reason why he's a candidate. I'm not sure Broda was a better netminder than... say... Roy Worters. But Broda won 302 games and 13 playoff rounds. Worters won 171 games and a grand total of zero playoff rounds.

EDIT : I'm totally on your side regarding of the argument otherwise.

Short career, but basically all peak level play. Extra filler years are certainly not worthless, especially for a goaltender in a six-team league, but it's really the only thing Durnan lacks. Gardiner had a similarly short career. Broda's longevity is a definite plus, but in their overlapping years the evidence is quite strong that Durnan was considered better. Three times Durnan was the 1st team all star, Broda has just one selection and no 2nd team picks either. Hart voting is also in Durnan's favour. Not the be all and all, but in absence of anecdotal evidence to the contrary, it seems fair to consider Durnan better from 1947-50.

Durnan also lacks the Conn Smythe-level playoff run, but still won two Cups with a combined GAA of less than 2.00. The apparent nervous breakdown in the 1950 playoffs would be a negative that Broda doesn't carry, but Clint Benedict showing up drunk for playoff games and being shipped out of Ottawa because of it didn't seem to greatly bother people when he was discussed and listed.

 

[MXD]

Durnan also lacks the Conn Smythe-level playoff run, but still won two Cups with a combined GAA of less than 2.00. The apparent nervous breakdown in the 1950 playoffs would be a negative that Broda doesn't carry, but Clint Benedict showing up drunk for playoff games and being shipped out of Ottawa because of it didn't seem to greatly bother people when he was discussed and listed.

...Eh, fair points, but the Canadiens allowed 65 ('44) and 24('46) less goals than the second best defense in the league. IN 50 GAMES.

Of course, Durnan had something to do with his team not allowing lots of goals in the first place, but I'm not quite sure how much extra credit he deserves for not allowing lots of goals in the playoffs, since the Canadiens were actually scoring goals, contrary to the, say, '34 Blackhawks. Of course, full marks for the good performance. I just wouldn't go above and beyond that.

Also, Paul Bibeault allowed 3 goals/game (avg) in the 10 games he played in 1946. Had the Canadiens allowed 150 goals in 1946... well, they would still have been the team who allowed the least goals. They D corps was very good.

Full disclosure : I'm almost certainly ranking Durnan first this round and I just think the facts above had to be pointed out. After all, it's a discussion, and not only a pure ranking exercice.

 

[Captain Bowie]

I had Fedorov last, but I think only Lach has jumped him so far. Still early, see how the defencemen. fare.

 

[VanIslander]

Leaving this alone for the rest of today, but this is my first impressions ballot. Subject to change if anyone wants to convince me otherwise.

Brett Hull

Bill Durnan

Turk Broda

Sergei Fedorov

Boris Mikhailov

Elmer Lach

Brian Leetch

Nels Stewart

Borje Salming

Bill Gadsby

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Wow. Invert the order and you'd be MUCH closer to my initial impression (with two clear exceptions).

We have a lot of deliberations to do...

 

[overg]

Coffey and Fedorov definitely clicked and played a lot on the PP but with regards to '95-96 I think the Russian 5 had a bigger impact because that's the season where they spent more time together. During '94 and the shortened season I could see Coffey having a big impact.

Additionally, '94 was the year when Yzerman was injured for a good chunk of the season, and Fedorov (for really the only time while in Detroit) was given the unequivocal number 1 center role. I think that had a bigger effect on Fedorov's Hart performance than Coffey.

So I don't think you can really make a straight line correlation from Coffey to Fedorov's production. Having said that, Coffey was still an absolute offensive force during this time frame, so there's no doubt he had *some* influence on Fedorov's numbers. I just think Yzerman's injury and the Russian 5 were much bigger influences on the '94 and '96 seasons.

 

[seventieslord]

*raises hand* I have a dumb question...the more I look into it, the less dumb I feel about it, but I'm wearing a lead shirt today, so do your worst...

Was Turk Broda really better than Johnny Bower? Is Broda just a slovenly Billy Smith?

I would say yes, based on their respective achievements, Broda is definitely better than Johnny Bower.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Not from your target demo, but I believe I didn't rank Gadsby. I may have been overly harsh on the post 1960-side of his career, which seems worse than Leetch's dropoff from 97-98 onwards. But Leetch killed a lot of penalties, was just as good offensively (and that's most of Gadsby's value), and Leetch has better playoffs than Gadsby even if you ignore the 1994 Superman run. Leetch was also 3rd in points at the 1996 World Cup with a Canada/World Cup single tournament record plus/minus of +10.

Gadsby is the first player available I didn't have on my list. In retrospect that was probably a mistake. He was on there for awhile but I pushed off eventually.

That said, I think its too soon for him this round.

 

[pappyline]

I find it disturbing that someone would leave Gadsby off their list.

I will likely vote him number one this round. IMO, he should be ahead of Pronger & Stevens who are already ranked at 59 & 64.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Care to share, pappy? In my viewings of him, I thought he was just a more limited with the puck than I would have liked...but I'm open to hearing more, especially if there's a particular time/place you want to point me towards where I/we can see more...

(I did have Gadsby comfortably in my top 100, for the record)...

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Once again, Henri Richard at 49, Forsberg at 51

But no Keon or Lindros in sight.

 

[pappyline]

Care to share, pappy? In my viewings of him, I thought he was just a more limited with the puck than I would have liked...but I'm open to hearing more, especially if there's a particular time/place you want to point me towards where I/we can see more...

(I did have Gadsby comfortably in my top 100, for the record)...

Start with this link

Gadsby, Bill -- Biography -- Honoured Player -- Legends of Hockey

I would hardly call him limited with the puck. His 46 assists in 58-59 was a record for defensemen at the time. And that was in the Harvey/Kelly era.