Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 11

[quoipourquoi]

Procedure

• You will be presented with 10+ players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list (10 players plus anyone with 99% of the voting points of the 10th ranked player)
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to quoipourquoi
• Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
• The top-4 players will be added to The List in Vote 1, while the top-5 players will be added to The List in subsequent voting cycles (#1-4 in Vote 1, #5-9 in Vote 2, #10-14 in Vote 3, #15-19 in Vote 4, #20-24 in Vote 5, #25-29 in Vote 6, #30-34 in Vote 7, #35-39 in Vote 8, #40-44 in Vote 9, #45-49 in Vote 10, #50-54 in Vote 11, #55-59 in Vote 12, #60-64 in Vote 13, #65-69 in Vote 14, #70-74 in Vote 15, #75-79 in Vote 16, #80-84 in Vote 17, #85-89 in Vote 18, #90-94 in Vote 19, #95-99 in Vote 20)
• A 100th player will be added to The List in Vote 21 from an expanded group of 15 candidates

Eligible Voters

• Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 120 players (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated in the History of Hockey ranking
• Art of Sedinery, Batis, BenchBrawl, blogofmike, bobholly39, Canadiens1958, ChiTownPhilly, DannyGallivan, Dennis Bonvie, Dr John Carlson, ehhedler, Hockey Outsider, Iceman, ImporterExporter, Johnny Engine, JoseTheodore2002, kruezer, Kyle McMahon, Mike Farkas, MXD, pappyline, quoipourquoi, ResilientBeast, Sentinel, seventieslord, steve141, ted1971, TheDevilMadeMe, TheGeneral, The Macho Man, tony d, VanIslander

Guidelines

• Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
• Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players
• Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
• Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project.

House Rules

• Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
• We encourage interpositional discussion (forward vs. defenseman vs. goaltender) as opposed to the safer and somewhat redundant intrapositional debates. Overemphasizing a tired single-position argument like, I don’t know, Harvey/Lidstrom, will only be briefly tolerated before one is asked to move on to a less tedious comparison.
  
• Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
• Finish your drink when someone mentions that goaltenders cannot be compared to skaters

The actual voting period will open up on Friday, January 25th at midnight and continue through Sunday, January 27th at 8:59pm. Eastern time zone. I will release the results of the vote on Monday, January 28st.


Vote 11 Candidates

• Bernie Geoffrion
• Charlie Conacher
• Earl Seibert
• Evgeni Malkin
• Frank Brimsek
• Marcel Dionne
• Milt Schmidt
• Peter Forsberg
• Pierre Pilote
• Vladislav Tretiak

Click to read more...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

No Firsov continues to be lame.

First impressions:

There's a legit chance my top 4 this round will all be non-Canadians .

At this point, Pilote looks to easily be the best defenseman left, but I'm not sure that's enough for top 5.

 

[MXD]

... This time I'm ready to be swayed by arguments, as long as they don't involve Conacher/Brimsek, who are firmly entrenched at the top, and Dionne/Forsberg/Tretiak, who are firmly entrenched at the end.

That's the first vote since V2 where I'm not likely to put a Goaltender at the very top.

Oh and I agree for Firsov, too.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Earl Seibert?! Kindda random at this point.

 

[MXD]

Earl Seibert?! Kindda random at this point.

Well... To be honest, in the D-Men food chain, we were pretty much up to him. I guess a few others could've been good candidates (and I'd probably prefer Tim Horton a wee bit better at this point), but he doesn't look bad at all in this group.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

... This time I'm ready to be swayed by arguments, as long as they don't involve Conacher/Brimsek, who are firmly entrenched at the top, and Dionne/Forsberg/Tretiak, who are firmly entrenched at the end.

That's the first vote since V2 where I'm not likely to put a Goaltender at the very top.

Oh and I agree for Firsov, too.

This is Tretiak's third time up and you still have him at the end?

 

[BenchBrawl]

Well... To be honest, in the D-Men food chain, we were pretty much up to him. I guess a few others could've been good candidates (and I'd probably prefer Tim Horton a wee bit better at this point), but he doesn't look bad at all in this group.

On second thoughts, you're right that we're entering the huge tier of defensemen that could be ranked in any order without sounding crazy, of which Seibert belongs.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Milt Schmidt deserves greater consideration given he took the Bruin to the SC Finals in three sub eras - pre Red Line, post WWII and defensive early fifties. Assuming specific roles and responsibilities, adjusting to schedule demands.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I think Seibert's right in the heart of the order here (where ever we are haha)...decade of dominance at his position in the years leading up to WWII. Developed in pre-forward pass era hockey and thrived in liberalized passing hockey. Didn't get a lot of undue mileage out of WWII years...

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Hart trophy results

Player	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th+	Total
Milt Schmidt	1	1		1	1		1	5
Evgeni Malkin	1	2					1	4
Marcel Dionne		1	2		1			4
Frank Brimsek		1	1		1			3
Peter Forsberg	1						1	2
Bernie Geoffrion	1						1	2
Charlie Conacher		1		1				2
Earl Seibert				2				2

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Schmidt missed three prime years during WWII to serve in the Armed Forces.

Pilote, as far as I can tell, never earned a vote for the Hart (somewhat understandable, though, given that he played with three of of the top thirty players of all-time - hard to be "most valuable" in that situation).

Tretiak, obviously, never received a vote for the Hart, since he never played in the NHL.

(Trivia - with Dionne and Malkin up for voting, there are only three players from WWII onwards who have 3+ years as a Hart finalist, who aren't yet up for voting. I suspect we'll see one of them next week, one of them in March, and one of them in the final logjam vote for the final spot).

 

[Hockey Outsider]

VsX - career summary

Player	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th	8th	9th	10th	7YR	10YR
Marcel Dionne	116.2	115.1	112.1	100.0	100.0	93.3	86.5	86.3	85.7	79.6	103.3	97.5
Charlie Conacher	121.3	120.9	100.0	96.0	95.0	75.0	65.1	52.3	52.3	46.8	96.2	82.5
Evgeni Malkin	112.4	102.7	100.0	96.1	82.8	81.4	80.9	74.6	70.6	65.2	93.7	86.7
Peter Forsberg	101.9	100.0	96.7	92.7	90.7	78.9	71.4	70.8	63.2	54.3	90.3	82.1
Bernie Geoffrion	105.6	101.4	88.8	88.5	87.3	79.5	78.3	70.4	70.2	63.9	89.9	83.4
Milt Schmidt	120.9	98.4	92.4	86.4	72.7	72.5	64.8	61.4	59.4	59.3	86.9	78.8
Pierre Pilote	74.3	71.1	67.9	56.3	50.0	46.2	44.6	44.0	42.3	38.9	58.6	53.5
Earl Seibert	53.5	53.2	47.7	45.5	44.4	38.9	37.2	35.0	34.7	34.1	45.8	42.4

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Dionne has the 12th best seven-year VsX of all-time, and the 11th best ten-year VsX all-time. (For those curious, the other players in the top 25 in the seven year, not yet on the list or up for voting, are Bathgate, Cowley, and Thornton).

As mentioned before - Conacher has excellent results, but there's a massive drop-off after the 5th year. (I thought Malkin would have had a larger drop-off, actually).

Same comment as above re Schmidt. He missed three prime years during WWII. He definitely has the thinnest offensive resume of all the forwards listed here, but how much of that can/should be excused by the fact that he missed ages 24 to 26?

As I mentioned before, Pilote has excellent offense relative to the other defensemen of his era. The same is true of Seibert, though to a lesser extent. My still-unpublished "Defenseman VsX" shows that Seibert has strong results - roughly on par with Robinson, Horton and Pronger.

 

[MXD]

All things told...
It's great that Malkin's availability generated exactly no reaction whatsoever. He wouldn't have looked bad two rounds ago and probably would've been more appropriately available last round, but it's fair to say that it's probably the right time (for him) to get considered.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think Seibert's right in the heart of the order here (where ever we are haha)...decade of dominance at his position in the years leading up to WWII. Developed in pre-forward pass era hockey and thrived in liberalized passing hockey. Didn't get a lot of undue mileage out of WWII years...

Lack of high end dominance is Seibert's weakness. Little Hart support in an era when defensemen got a lot of Hart support. Only 1 1st Team All Star until the quality of the league started to crash in the early 1940s. Pretty clearly peaked lower than contemporaries Babe Siebert and Ebbie Goodfellow.

His case basically rests on a ton of 2nd Team nods, but is that enough to rank over Cleghorn, Stevens, MacInnis, or Horton?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

All things told...
It's great that Malkin's availability generated exactly no reaction whatsoever. He wouldn't have looked bad two rounds and probably would've been more appropriately available last round, but it's fair to say that it's probably the right time (for him) to get considered.

(@Hockey Outsider , you wanted another placeholder?)

I had Forsberg/Malkin back to back on my original list, and while I don't like some things about that list, that's one I feel prettt good about.

 

[MXD]

Lack of high end dominance is Seibert's weakness. Little Hart support in an era when defensemen got a lot of Hart support. Only 1 1st Team All Star until the quality of the league started to crash in the early 1940s. Pretty clearly peaked lower than contemporaries Babe Siebert and Ebbie Goodfellow.

His case basically rests on a ton of 2nd Team nods, but is that enough to rank over Cleghorn, Stevens, MacInnis, or Horton?

One thing about Seibert however...

We keep saying, WITH CAUSE, that D-Men garnered a lot of Hart support during that era.
However... it seems that most of them were forwards-turned-D-Men (or Eddie Shore). And Seibert, as far as I know, never played forward.

I don't know if that's relevant or not.

 

[wetcoast]

I'm really beginning to wonder how Dionne would do on an all time regular season player all time list.

His playoff reputation has him dropping like a rock here.

 

[ted2019]

I'm really beginning to wonder how Dionne would do on an all time regular season player all time list.

His playoff reputation has him dropping like a rock here.

His playoffs sucked because teams could just concentrate on his line since the Kings seemed to be only a 1 line team.

 

[wetcoast]

His playoffs sucked because teams could just concentrate on his line since the Kings seemed to be only a 1 line team.

I'm fully aware of that but it seems that he is going to get 100% of the blame from the fact that he is only up for voting now.

I can't think of another elite offensive center that had worse offensive defenseman support post expansion era than Dionne got.

Not that it matters, but Dionne is a great interview, have heard him a few times on the radio and he is classy and honest.

 

[Canadiens1958]

His playoffs sucked because teams could just concentrate on his line since the Kings seemed to be only a 1 line team.

Post 1955 Detroit was often a one line team driven by Howe.

1980s Savard/Chicago, Yzerman/Detroit, Hawerchuk/Winnipeg were oneline teams where the motor definitely outperformed Dionne.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Malkin and Dionne make me very happy. Hope they withstand the test of the week's discussions.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Could be Tretiak and Brimsek leading the way for me in this round. I like Brimsek the most of the new candidates.

Prefer the forwards who were talented in various facets of the game to the more one-dimensional ones in this vote. Forsberg and Schmidt ahead of Geoffrion, Malkin, and Dionne.

I think Pilote and Conacher have a serious chance to be in my top 5 by now.

Seems a touch early for Seibert, but I probably have the least familiarity with his career out of all the candidates, so looking forward to the arguments for him.

 

[VanIslander]

6'2, 198 lbs. fast-skating, shot-blocking all-around great defenseman Earl Seibert

• As a 22 year old he was 4th in Hart voting, behind a trio of 30+year-old veterans, the season after scoring in his Rangers Stanley Cup championship (11 years later he would be 4th in Hart voting again);
• The next season he began his 10-year streak as a 1st/2nd team all-star, a feat
  no other dman has ever done except for Harvey.
• Some of his contemporaries said he was a better defenseman than Eddie Shore, but less flashy for the crowds and media.
• Seibert was nine times top-5 in dman scoring; 1st in NHL dman scoring over his 5-year peak, 2nd over his 10-year peak.
• In Chicago as a 26 year old Blackhawk, he tied the team lead in playoff goals and one short of the points lead, in playing a heralded 55 minutes a game in an unexpected upset of the favored Leafs, his coach identifying Earl as the reason they had won the Stanley Cup.

Earl Seibert is like the Frank Nighbor of defensemen in terms of greatness forgotten, though not because of a defunct franchise, but the bulk of his career for a lowly Chicago franchise that acts like the Blackhawks began with Bobby Hull.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Good morning, Hockeyworld. Let me just make the rounds, here.

No Firsov continues to be lame.

When Jágr, Ovechkin, and Makarov were (imo) undervalued, I thought about the 'X' word. Then, I saw Cook, Bossy, and Conacher similarly treated- and then I recognized- The Tribe just doesn't think as much of Wingers. Don't be surprised if our wait for Firsov and Mikhailov goes on. (And Bathgate. And Selänne. And Iginla...)

... This time I'm ready to be swayed by arguments, as long as they don't involve Conacher/Brimsek, who are firmly entrenched at the top, and Dionne/Forsberg/Tretiak, who are firmly entrenched at the end.

Basically agree with 80% of what you're saying, here. Looks like Conacher NEEDS support- and (somehow) I think Tretiak will (finally) move on in spite of this lack-of-support.

Milt Schmidt deserves greater consideration given he took the Bruin to the SC Finals in three sub eras - pre Red Line, post WWII and defensive early fifties. Assuming specific roles and responsibilities, adjusting to schedule demands.

It's his time, I think. Only suspense for me is: merely upper half, or podium?!

I think Seibert's right in the heart of the order here (where ever we are haha).

My still-unpublished "Defenseman VsX" shows that Seibert has strong results - roughly on par with Robinson, Horton and Pronger.

Seibert is definitely a "Career Services" guy, the significance of which rests on how much importance one attaches to that portion of the résumé. For me, for Defensemen, it's pretty important. He's also capable of coming up clutch, as in:

In Chicago as a 26 year old Blackhawk, he tied the team lead in playoff goals and one short of the points lead, in playing a heralded 55 minutes a game in an unexpected upset of the favored Leafs, his coach identifying Earl as the reason they had won the Stanley Cup.

THE consensus choice for Most Improbable Stanley Cup Run Ever.

Top two are top. Bottom four are bottom. My first homework is going to be an Interpositional Fiesta: ordering the cluster of (alphabetically) Earl Seibert, Frank Brimsek, Milt Schmidt, and Pierre Pilote.

 

[DannyGallivan]

I can't think of another elite offensive center that had worse offensive defenseman support post expansion era than Dionne got.

Dale Hawerchuk.

 

[DannyGallivan]

On my original list of 120, I had Pilote, Malkin, Schmidt, Dionne and Forsberg all within the 39-45 spots (with Malkin, Schmidt and Dionne at the 41, 42 and 43 spots). So, this grouping really makes sense to me. I'm willing to hear arguments supporting Brimsek and especially Seibert, as they were further down for me (especially Seibert, who was way down for me).