Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 1

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by quoipourquoi, Oct 28, 2018.

  1. quoipourquoi Goaltender

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    Procedure
    • You will be presented with 10+ players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list (10 players plus anyone with 99% of the voting points of the 10th ranked player)
    • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
    • You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to quoipourquoi
    • Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
    • The top-4 players will be added to The List in Vote 1, while the top-5 players will be added to The List in subsequent voting cycles (#1-4 in Vote 1, #5-9 in Vote 2, #10-14 in Vote 3, #15-19 in Vote 4, #20-24 in Vote 5, #25-29 in Vote 6, #30-34 in Vote 7, #35-39 in Vote 8, #40-44 in Vote 9, #45-49 in Vote 10, #50-54 in Vote 11, #55-59 in Vote 12, #60-64 in Vote 13, #65-69 in Vote 14, #70-74 in Vote 15, #75-79 in Vote 16, #80-84 in Vote 17, #85-89 in Vote 18, #90-94 in Vote 19, #95-99 in Vote 20)
    • A 100th player will be added to The List in Vote 21 from an expanded group of 15 candidates

    Eligible Voters
    • Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 120 players (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated in the History of Hockey ranking
    • Art of Sedinery, Batis, BenchBrawl, blogofmike, bobholly39, Canadiens1958, ChiTownPhilly, DannyGallivan, Dennis Bonvie, Dr John Carlson, ehhedler, Hockey Outsider, Iceman, ImporterExporter, Johnny Engine, JoseTheodore2002, kruezer, Kyle McMahon, Mike Farkas, MXD, pappyline, quoipourquoi, ResilientBeast, Sentinel, seventieslord, steve141, ted1971, TheDevilMadeMe, TheGeneral, The Macho Man, tony d, VanIslander

    Guidelines
    • Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
    • Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players
    • Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
    • Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project.

    House Rules
    • Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
    • We encourage interpositional discussion (forward vs. defenseman vs. goaltender) as opposed to the safer and somewhat redundant intrapositional debates. Overemphasizing a tired single-position argument like, I don’t know, Harvey/Lidstrom, will only be briefly tolerated before one is asked to move on to a less tedious comparison.
    • Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
    • Finish your drink when someone mentions that goaltenders cannot be compared to skaters

    The actual voting period will open up on Friday, November 2nd at midnight and continue through Sunday, November 4th at 8:59pm. Eastern time zone. I will release the results of the vote on Monday, November 5th.


    Vote 1 Candidates
    • Bobby Hull
    • Bobby Orr
    • Doug Harvey
    • Gordie Howe
    • Jean Beliveau
    • Mario Lemieux
    • Maurice Richard
    • Patrick Roy
    • Ray Bourque
    • Wayne Gretzky
     
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  2. seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    Really surprised to see Gretzky so soon.
     
  3. MXD Original #4

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    ... It begins.
    With a small surprise as I expected Hasek but not Bourque. Other nine are no surprises.

    To be honest, the biggest issue for me here is... probably 2nd and 3rd. I'm not saying the reminder is open and shut... but it realistically is.
     
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  4. Dirt 101 Dirt, the famous Nevada railway cat

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    Four Montreal Canadiens!
    Which one was the greatest?
    Lots of ink has been spilt on that question.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2018
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  5. Captain Bowie Registered User

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    Finally!!!

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Captain Bowie Registered User

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    I generally have Gretzky->Orr->Howe->Lemieux but am opento some new and interesting arguments for anything different. I often flip flip Lemieux and Howe too so it would be easy to convince to flip those 2.
     
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  7. ChiTownPhilly Not Too Soft

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    Good on you. I'll try to put together reasons why Lemieux should receive higher consideration than a consensus-weld to the #4 spot.
     
  8. Dirt 101 Dirt, the famous Nevada railway cat

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    How much will we overlook/discount injuries?????

    Orr, Lemieux,... (later Kharlamov, Forsberg, etc).

    I think we discount injury for Lemieux (accomplished less due to it but ain't resorting to PPG stats to argue for Mario>Gretz). Hence, we conclude Gretzky > Lemieux.

    But with Orr we often cut him ALL slack. Should we? I'm not sure he should be ranked above Howe and Gretzky. I wonder if we should think of him like Mario: too bad he wasn't healthier. I'm not comfortable ranking Orr first (though in the ATD of course a dman would be so valued; but in this project... career accomplishments, maintaining high level of play for a long time beyond 6 years... is valued).
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2018
  9. ResilientBeast Resident PCHA Fanboy

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    I wasn't expecting to see this today, but I'm excited to get going.

    Gretzky > Orr > Howe > Lemieux is traditionally how I've viewed the presumptive top 4, interested in the arguments for movement in 2-4

    A little surprised my #5 in Hasek wasn't in the first set but I'm expecting to see him in the second set of nominees
     
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  10. Mike Farkas Grace Personified

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    I've heard of him...
     
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  11. seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    PPG arguments don't get Lemieux ahead of Gretzky anyway, so I don't see why one should even bother.

    I'm having difficulty finding one off the top of my head, but, is there any way that Lemieux's resume is superior to Gretzky's?
     
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  12. Hockey Outsider Registered User

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    I have dozens (hundreds?) of potential tables that I can post, but I'd like to keep things simple. I'm open to feedback, but I think there are two key tables I'd like to post at the start of each voting round.

    Here's how the ten candidates stack up in terms of Hart trophy voting:

    Player1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th+Total
    Gordie Howe61523118
    Wayne Gretzky9111113
    Mario Lemieux331119
    Bobby Orr34119
    Jean Beliveau24129
    Bobby Hull22419
    Maurice Richard1236
    Ray Bourque2215
    Doug Harvey1135
    Patrick Roy11114
    This is filtered to exclude any year where a player received less than 5% of the available votes (the intention is to avoid overstating their results based on a few random votes). Note also that this data goes back to the end of WWII (so it captures all ten players' entire careers).

    Here's how they stack up in ten year VsX:

    Player 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th TOTAL
    Wayne Gretzky 169.4 169.4 158.1 154.1 152.5 144.2 141.7 121.5 120.9 115.1 144.7
    Gordie Howe 155.7 132.8 130.3 124.6 115.6 111.3 108.5 106.2 98.6 97.6 118.1
    Mario Lemieux 143.2 134.2 128.2 112.9 111.9 108.1 100.0 99.1 95.3 87.5 112.0
    Bobby Hull 124.4 114.3 111.5 106.7 101.3 100.0 100.0 89.3 85.5 85.3 101.8
    Jean Beliveau 123.9 109.6 109.1 100.0 100.0 98.7 98.6 92.5 84.4 83.1 100.0
    Maurice Richard 112.7 109.8 100.0 100.0 100.0 100.0 94.2 93.6 88.3 80.5 97.9
    Bobby Orr 154.4 139.5 134.1 111.6 107.3 97.1 59.8 58.6 36.9 21.9 92.1
    Raymond Bourque 88.0 81.7 79.3 75.8 69.8 68.3 65.1 63.7 61.8 61.5 71.5
    Doug Harvey 66.2 64.9 62.0 60.7 57.7 55.7 48.1 43.9 43.3 42.0 54.5
    For those not familiar with VsX, check this link. Roy isn't included because you can't compare goalies to other positions directly using this metric (everybody take a shot - gin).
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2018
  13. Dr John Carlson Light is all over us

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    9 of my top 10, 10 of my top 11.

    I may be able to be convinced of Howe > Orr but that'll be the only possible movement in my top 4. Gretzky and Lemieux are both firmly 1 & 4 respectively.
     
  14. zffssk On Break

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    It's on!

    Wishing everyone a pleasant and constructive project.
     
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  15. ted2019 Know your History

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    I'll say in order.
    Beliveau
    Harvey
    Richard
    Roy
     
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  16. ted2019 Know your History

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    I know since I had Brent at #125 on my top 120 list.
     
  17. zffssk On Break

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    Looking more dominant through the eye-test.

    I don't agree with it but that's the only reason to rank Lemieux over Gretzky I can think of.
     
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  18. Dirt 101 Dirt, the famous Nevada railway cat

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    Do we take into account defensive play of forwards?

    If we will later (Nighbor, Fedorov, etc) then how about now.

    Gordie Howe deserves some credit for the many, many accounts of his complete game. For example, Bowman says he was excellent defensively. Shall we profile his greatness without the puck? Will it make some difference?
     
  19. ted2019 Know your History

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    • Bobby Hull
    • Bobby Orr
    • Doug Harvey
    • Gordie Howe
    • Jean Beliveau
    • Mario Lemieux
    • Maurice Richard
    • Patrick Roy
    • Ray Bourque
    • Wayne Gretzky
    Will Mario break into the top 3?
    Will Orr slip to #3?
    Can someone knock the foursome of Gretzky/Orr/Howe/Lemieux out of the top 4?
     
  20. Mike Farkas Grace Personified

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    Eye test and less time in a bleh-ish era than Wayne-o had...that's best I can do...

    I am more interested in Orr vs Howe...I think we can look more closely at that here...
     
  21. ted2019 Know your History

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    I had Hasek 11th and Roy 12th
     
  22. ChiTownPhilly Not Too Soft

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    Everyone will have their own twist on answering this question- but you do make a good point that the sub-forum does appear to have a history of cutting Orr ALL slack for his injuries. [And he's had a few instances during his career, as well as at the end.] I have my answer: no. We should NOT look past this matter.
     
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  23. Captain Bowie Registered User

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    Is it really cutting him slack, though? His injuries did not hold him back from being the best player of his era, and the best defenceman ever by a significant margin. Him not having a long, fruitful 1000+ game career is likely the only thing preventing Orr vs. Gretzky being a really, really close debate.
     
  24. zffssk On Break

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    Injury Prone (Orr vs. Lemieux)

    Bobby Orr was not injury prone the same way Mario Lemieux was.Injuries ended Orr's career but that's a different thing.

    Number of missed games for Bobby Orr (yearly):
    9
    28
    9
    0
    0
    2
    15
    4
    0
    (after that his career was for all purposes over, even if he did play a few more games)

    Number of missed games for Mario Lemieux (yearly):
    7
    1
    17
    3
    4
    21
    54
    16
    24
    62
    12
    6
    (then he retired for the first time, I'll ignore his come back years)

    ---

    Season by season injuries impacted Lemieux' career more than Orr's.

    Of course we could count all the games Orr didn't play from age 26 to 35 or something, but that's another story.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2018
  25. Captain Bowie Registered User

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    Jagr's the only guy I had in the top 10 that isn't on the list this round.
     

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