Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (Revenge of Michael Myers)

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Kyle McMahon

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May 10, 2006
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How can he be a great set-up man without the numbers to show for it?

He was getting praise? Fine.

Then how can we take seriously the praise he was receiving? Considering he was praised as a master while going pointless or so?

If you feel contemporary observances are worthless without recorded statistics to back them up, I'm quite curious to see how you managed to sort out many of the players on your list, especially defensemen.
 

Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
13,301
4,353
How can he be a great set-up man without the numbers to show for it?

He was getting praise? Fine.

Then how can we take seriously the praise he was receiving? Considering he was praised as a master while going pointless or so?

Also, congratulations for trying to make me look bad by coming up with the seasons where assists were not recorded, when that wasn't my intention at all. You're back on the ****list.

That list must be getting pretty damn long by now. At least I know I'm in good company.
 

Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
29,322
17,705
Connecticut
How can he be a great set-up man without the numbers to show for it?

He was getting praise? Fine.

Then how can we take seriously the praise he was receiving? Considering he was praised as a master while going pointless or so?

Also, congratulations for trying to make me look bad by coming up with the seasons where assists were not recorded, when that wasn't my intention at all. You're back on the ****list.

Nighbor did lead the NHL in assists 3 times.

That said, Cy Denneny, Eddie Gerrard , Jack Darragh, King Clancy, Lionel Hitchman and Georges Boucher each either led the league or tied for the lead in assists while Nighbor's teammates. Pretty good team then in Ottawa. Or they handed out more assists than other teams.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,779
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Nighbor did lead the NHL in assists 3 times.

That said, Cy Denneny, Eddie Gerrard , Jack Darragh, King Clancy, Lionel Hitchman and Georges Boucher each either led the league or tied for the lead in assists while Nighbor's teammates. Pretty good team then in Ottawa. Or they handed out more assists than other teams.

I distinctly remember looking into this... I think it was during the wingers project.

I'll bring this up, because it's nor the place nor the time. I think that what came out of it is that the Canadiens were getting less assists per goals than every other team, while the Senators usually ended up with more assists per goals, though it wasn't as glaring.
 

Johnny Engine

Moderator
Jul 29, 2009
4,979
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Huh? Many of those names could be spelled pretty accurately in English. For example Dvořák: ř = r+sh, therefore Dvořák = Dvorshák.
Well, with Czech it's not an issue because it still uses the Roman alphabet, so the spelling doesn't need to be altered for any purpose. After all, we're not asking Jonathan Toews to spell his name in a way that makes any sense. But with Russian, the accepted spelling is something we have to make up and approximate.

The example I made regarding Dvořák was about the pronunciation, not the spelling (which is what it is). And I know that when Bob Cole says "Radek Dvorak" and it rhymes with "historic", or when Julie Nesrallah says "Antonin Dvorak" and it rhymes with "Rorschach", neither are physically able to reproduce a sound* where the "r" and "sh" are voiced as one, so they either just say the "r" or make two different consonants.

There would have to be similar examples between Russian and English where you'd have to ask "wait, do we even have a letter for that sound?"

*though I'd bet on Julie being able to pull it off with some effort, given her vocal abilities
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
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Nighbor, like any other player, took advantage of how the game was played during his time. Whether his skills would have been transferable to future eras seems largely moot in this case. It's not like he took advantage of a specific rule by finding some loophole to exploit. The hockey world simply didn't feel the need or desire to allow unrestricted forward passing until the very end of his career.

Far from my point this time.

1929-30 NHL season Frank Nighbor played 23 games with 2G and 0A.

Frank Nighbor Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Granted Howie Morenz saw his assist total increase by only 3,to a total lower than some pre forward pass seasons:

Howie Morenz Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

And the Leafs did not take advantage of the liberalized forward pass rules:

1928-29 Toronto Maple Leafs Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

Hence the observation.
 
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seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,114
7,183
Regina, SK
The master of what?
... Which would translate to what?

defensive play, specifically. Probably the possession game, the mental game and his stickwork, too. Obviously his offensive game in his last few seasons was not what it once was. For the record, it was never my contention that he had some hidden offense that was being lost in his point totals, and I'm not sure how that got inserted into the conversation.

Now would be a good time to remind everyone that Nighbor, in the 1927-28 season, was STILL 6th in Hart voting (with a not-insignificant number of votes) despite having only 1/3 as many points as the league leaders. This is a quote from late in the following season, 1928-29:

So far ahead of all hockey players in defensive ability, in starting plays and in outguessing the opposition is Frank Nighbor that it would be almost a shame to mention another in the game at the present time. There is only one "Old Master" and aspiring players have a star to aim at.

They're not talking about what he was in this passage. They're talking about what he still is. Again, I do not think this in any way relates to his current offensive capabilities.

I mean.... By then, Nighbor was something of an also-ran playing for an also-ran team, for which he probably deserves at least SOME blame, considering the amount of time he was spending on the ice.

The player I just described is no also-ran and I'm kinda not clear on what you mean about his team, either. Ottawa's franchise index can be found here:

Ottawa Senators Franchise Index | Hockey-Reference.com

He was with them from 1917-18 through 1928-29, and part of 1929-30. Show me where in his tenure the team was ever bad. From what I can see, they only failed to be a .600 team in four of his twelve full seasons, and under .500 twice. And you should know something about those two seasons...

The first time was 1917-18, in which they were actually 5-5 (with 4.00 GAA) with him, and 3-9 (with 6.08 GAA) without. The other was 1928-29, when they were 12-11-7 (with a 1.29 GAA) with him, and 2-6-6 (with a 2.07 GAA) without him, so it actually kinda looks like, even at 36, he was the only thing stopping them from actually being an als0-ran.

Since we got on the topic, there are a few other times Nighbor missed four or more games in a season. Here's what happened:

1922: 13-5-2 (2.95) with, 1-3-0 (6.25) without
1924: 15-5-0 (2.05) with, 1-3-0 (3.75) without
1925: 15-10-1 (2.27) with, 2-2-0 (1.75) without
1927: 27-7-0 (1.47) with, 3-3-0 (2.17) without

Combined with the other two instances, in these six seasons in which there are reasonable samples (he missed 1-2 games other times that I do not consider worth researching), the results look like this:

87-43-10 (1.97) with, 12-26-6 (3.68) without. These six instances span 12 seasons, and every time the result was the same - better win percentage (6 of 6 times), and better goals against average (5 of 6 times). His impact was obvious and does show up in the numbers, just not in the ways you might expect. This is why he was the master. When he's playing, you get twice as many wins as losses. When he's not.... well, it's the opposite.

You're right about one thing - He does deserve at least SOME blame, considering the amount of time he was spending on the ice.

Of course.... Nighbor was old, and probably shouldn't be expected to be the player he once was. Why use the word "master" to describe him, and, while we're at it, why would I give full credibility to the people who gave him more praise (than his numbers warranted) if they'd use words like "master" to describe him when his score sheet looked like a donut?

I believe the answer to this is, such a statement might look like a head-scratcher if you're only looking at offensive stats. But his value went far beyond that, as I hope you can now recognize.

I mean, maybe there is some valid criticism of Nighbor, but this sure ain't it. He drove winning, it's quite clear. Going back to his pre-NHL years, his teams were only below .500 with him in the lineup when he was 20, 21 and 37. In between, his personal W-L record in the regular season was approximately 232-114-29, give or take a few missed single games that I won't bother to research, and 22-14-5 in the playoffs. By the time he was retired, only Jack Marshall had amassed as many as his five stanley cups, and a couple of Jack's were gimmes. Nighbor's cup count would take decades for another player to top. If Nighbor's name wasn't the one most synonymous with winning at the time of his retirement in 1930, whose was?

Criticizing Nighbor for how his teams performed just doesn't fly, because they did perform, and he was the reason why, almost without exception.
 

ChiTownPhilly

Not Too Soft
Feb 23, 2010
2,102
1,391
AnyWorld/I'mWelcomeTo
How do people want the voting blocks in Round 2? Strict list of 10 players, or should we allow for bigger blocks based on the gaps in the aggregate?
Had a quick look at how we handled breaks/gaps in the other projects. I saw one that set the number of eligible players subject to discussion as a variable number between eight and twelve. Another set it between eight and ten. The way the question's asked here indicates that you'd like to know if we'd like to set the number at ten, or have the flexibility to make it 10+ (if we conclude the gap justifies). Suppose the problem with the 10 plus or minus is that if there are enough minuses, it'll extend the length of time it takes to complete the project. Having said that, there ought to be a firm ceiling somewhere. Twelve sounds like a good absolute maximum.

I like TDMM's idea that if the votes between five and six+ (in a round) are close enough, we should consider passing them through. I can see that there's be some project-fatigue risk with discussing the same player(s) again.

For the group of contributors that advocate for an invariable ten, I'm not unsympathetic to your position- but I have to ask (in sincerity, because I honestly don't know): have there been occasions in the other projects where you feel we've been let down by the earlier policy of some inbuilt flexibility?!
 

Theokritos

Global Moderator
Apr 6, 2010
12,541
4,935
Well, with Czech it's not an issue because it still uses the Roman alphabet, so the spelling doesn't need to be altered for any purpose.

True, though it could be altered to be spelled (somewhat) correctly, that is: very close to the way the names are pronounced e.g. in Czech. But of course, that's not a practical thing to do when the original language is already spelled in Roman letters.

But with Russian, the accepted spelling is something we have to make up and approximate.

Right. This circumstance would make it possible to use an English spelling that closely resembles the Russian pronounciation. But unfortunately the NHL doesn't give a damn and the result is that North America thinks the guy's name is Fedorov instead of Fyodorov.

The example I made regarding Dvořák was about the pronunciation, not the spelling (which is what it is). And I know that when Bob Cole says "Radek Dvorak" and it rhymes with "historic", or when Julie Nesrallah says "Antonin Dvorak" and it rhymes with "Rorschach", neither are physically able to reproduce a sound* where the "r" and "sh" are voiced as one, so they either just say the "r" or make two different consonants.

My point is the one that rhymes with "Rorschach" is as close to the Czech pronounciation as can reasonably expected from a non-Czech speaker. Whereas the one that rhymes with "historic" is way off base.

Personally I think that sport announcers who are, among other things, paid to announce the names of foreign players, are required to get those pronounciations right (=reasonably close) and it's unprofessional to not care about it. It's not like there aren't foreign embassies one could ask if he doesn't speak the language in question.
 
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ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
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Oblivion Express
How can he be a great set-up man without the numbers to show for it?

He was getting praise? Fine.

Then how can we take seriously the praise he was receiving? Considering he was praised as a master while going pointless or so?

Also, congratulations for trying to make me look bad by coming up with the seasons where assists were not recorded, when that wasn't my intention at all. You're back on the ****list.

It really is hilarious to see how butt hurt you get when people have a simple disagreement with you.

And you cap it off with a tantrum by putting people on ignore.

But keep on doing you bud.
 

sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
11,885
6,326
How can he be a great set-up man without the numbers to show for it?

He was getting praise? Fine.

Then how can we take seriously the praise he was receiving? Considering he was praised as a master while going pointless or so?

Also, congratulations for trying to make me look bad by coming up with the seasons where assists were not recorded, when that wasn't my intention at all. You're back on the ****list.

We walk in the garden of his turbulence.

But back to Jack Walker. He put up elite WCHL and SC playoffs (offensively) at the age of 36, which was an antique age at this time. Certainly for a skater supposed to contribute in both directions. Which shows there were skills there outreaching potential age inflicted boundaries. Nighbor at that age had 5 points in 30 NHL games. Offensive star players at this time often had these statistical dip seasons though at the end of their careers where they probably didn't get tons of ice time/opportunities (see Tommy Dunderdale, Joe Malone).
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,778
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
defensive play, specifically. Probably the possession game, the mental game and his stickwork, too. Obviously his offensive game in his last few seasons was not what it once was. For the record, it was never my contention that he had some hidden offense that was being lost in his point totals, and I'm not sure how that got inserted into the conversation.

Now would be a good time to remind everyone that Nighbor, in the 1927-28 season, was STILL 6th in Hart voting (with a not-insignificant number of votes) despite having only 1/3 as many points as the league leaders. This is a quote from late in the following season, 1928-29:

So far ahead of all hockey players in defensive ability, in starting plays and in outguessing the opposition is Frank Nighbor that it would be almost a shame to mention another in the game at the present time. There is only one "Old Master" and aspiring players have a star to aim at.

They're not talking about what he was in this passage. They're talking about what he still is. Again, I do not think this in any way relates to his current offensive capabilities.



The player I just described is no also-ran and I'm kinda not clear on what you mean about his team, either. Ottawa's franchise index can be found here:

Ottawa Senators Franchise Index | Hockey-Reference.com

He was with them from 1917-18 through 1928-29, and part of 1929-30. Show me where in his tenure the team was ever bad. From what I can see, they only failed to be a .600 team in four of his twelve full seasons, and under .500 twice. And you should know something about those two seasons...

The first time was 1917-18, in which they were actually 5-5 (with 4.00 GAA) with him, and 3-9 (with 6.08 GAA) without. The other was 1928-29, when they were 12-11-7 (with a 1.29 GAA) with him, and 2-6-6 (with a 2.07 GAA) without him, so it actually kinda looks like, even at 36, he was the only thing stopping them from actually being an als0-ran.

Since we got on the topic, there are a few other times Nighbor missed four or more games in a season. Here's what happened:

1922: 13-5-2 (2.95) with, 1-3-0 (6.25) without
1924: 15-5-0 (2.05) with, 1-3-0 (3.75) without
1925: 15-10-1 (2.27) with, 2-2-0 (1.75) without
1927: 27-7-0 (1.47) with, 3-3-0 (2.17) without

Combined with the other two instances, in these six seasons in which there are reasonable samples (he missed 1-2 games other times that I do not consider worth researching), the results look like this:

87-43-10 (1.97) with, 12-26-6 (3.68) without. These six instances span 12 seasons, and every time the result was the same - better win percentage (6 of 6 times), and better goals against average (5 of 6 times). His impact was obvious and does show up in the numbers, just not in the ways you might expect. This is why he was the master. When he's playing, you get twice as many wins as losses. When he's not.... well, it's the opposite.

You're right about one thing - He does deserve at least SOME blame, considering the amount of time he was spending on the ice.



I believe the answer to this is, such a statement might look like a head-scratcher if you're only looking at offensive stats. But his value went far beyond that, as I hope you can now recognize.

I mean, maybe there is some valid criticism of Nighbor, but this sure ain't it. He drove winning, it's quite clear. Going back to his pre-NHL years, his teams were only below .500 with him in the lineup when he was 20, 21 and 37. In between, his personal W-L record in the regular season was approximately 232-114-29, give or take a few missed single games that I won't bother to research, and 22-14-5 in the playoffs. By the time he was retired, only Jack Marshall had amassed as many as his five stanley cups, and a couple of Jack's were gimmes. Nighbor's cup count would take decades for another player to top. If Nighbor's name wasn't the one most synonymous with winning at the time of his retirement in 1930, whose was?

Criticizing Nighbor for how his teams performed just doesn't fly, because they did perform, and he was the reason why, almost without exception.

Excellent wrap-up.

Leaving the issue of how similar players with similar stat lines and team success are rated and evaluated.

The Dave Keon, Jacques Lemaire, types.
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
18,836
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Oblivion Express
This ain't the political forum, you should probably be careful about surpassing swear filters.

There is no more political forum (just realized it now, FYI for others).....best thing that has happened to this website since its inception.

It's no wonder some people are throwing tantrums, and it seems to be spilling over into hockey threads now. How novel!
 
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Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,778
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
We walk in the garden of his turbulence.

But back to Jack Walker. He put up elite WCHL and SC playoffs (offensively) at the age of 36, which was an antique age at this time. Certainly for a skater supposed to contribute in both directions. Which shows there were skills there outreaching potential age inflicted boundaries. Nighbor at that age had 5 points in 30 NHL games. Offensive star players at this time often had these statistical dip seasons though at the end of their careers where they probably didn't get tons of ice time/opportunities (see Tommy Dunderdale, Joe Malone).

Excellent point.

However, is the issue age or league necessity and quality?

At various times the NHL seems to have gone thru talent shortages.

Second half of the 1920s with consolidation and expansion plus the lack of new talent post WWI created the situation where careers lasted longer.
 

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
30,869
13,660
There is no more political forum (just realized it now, FYI for others).....best thing that has happened to this website since its inception.

It's no wonder some people are throwing tantrums, and it seems to be spilling over into hockey threads now. How novel!

This sub-forum was a complete freak show in the last few years.Extremely toxic environment.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,779
16,507
(long post)

I started to prepare a reply of sorts, but realized this is probably not the ideal thread, so I've kept it aside and I'll post it in due time, that is, in Round 2, somewhere around Vote 2 or 3, when it would be much more useful.

I don't know if I should congratulate you for not assuming that I'm a imbecile, because, frankly, that should be an obvious thing (not assuming others are imbecile... not that I'm not one, hahahha!)

Save the Nighbor stuff for Round 2, when it actually matters.

Indeed.
 

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
30,869
13,660
I agree with TheDevilMadeMe that the heated arguments should be saved for Round 2, but OTOH what else is there to say in this thread right now?

@quoipourquoi Was a starting date established? I recall seeing one but not sure.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,779
16,507
Are participants allowed to put other participants in the project on ignore? Seems a bit.... off base.

First : What are you gonna do about this?

Second : Believe me, I'd rather not do such a thing.
 
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