Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time (Part 2)

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quoipourquoi

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Jan 26, 2009
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Note: For Part 1 of the discussion, see here.

The following is the final list of the top hockey players of all-time as determined by 32 voting members of the History of Hockey community.

Report any errors to @quoipourquoi

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RankPlayerPositionBornNationBirth City
1Wayne GretzkyC1961CanadaBrantford, Ontario
2Gordie HoweRW1928CanadaFloral, Saskatchewan
3Bobby OrrD1948CanadaParry Sound, Ontario
4Mario LemieuxC1965CanadaMontreal, Quebec
5Bobby HullLW1939CanadaPoint Anne, Ontario
6Jean BeliveauC1931CanadaTrois-Rivieres, Quebec
7Patrick RoyG1965CanadaQuebec City, Quebec
8Doug HarveyD1924CanadaMontreal, Quebec
9Maurice RichardRW1921CanadaMontreal, Quebec
10Ray BourqueD1960CanadaSaint-Laurent, Quebec
11Howie MorenzC1902CanadaMitchell, Ontario
12Sidney CrosbyC1987CanadaHalifax, Nova Scotia
13Dominik HasekG1965Czech RepublicPardubice, Czechoslovakia
14Eddie ShoreD1902CanadaFort Qu'Appelle, Northwest Territories
15Nicklas LidstromD1970SwedenKrylbo, Sweden
16Jaromir JagrRW1972Czech RepublicKladno, Czechoslovakia
17Red KellyD / C1927CanadaSimcoe, Ontario
18Denis PotvinD1953CanadaVanier, Ontario
19Jacques PlanteG1929CanadaNotre-Dame-du-Mont-Carmel, Quebec
20Frank NighborC1893CanadaPembroke, Ontario
21Mark MessierLW / C1961CanadaEdmonton, Alberta
22Alex OvechkinLW / RW1985RussiaMoscow, Soviet Union
23Guy LafleurRW1951CanadaThurso, Quebec
24Stan MikitaC1940CanadaSokolce, Slovak Republic
25Viacheslav FetisovD1958RussiaMoscow, Soviet Union
26Sergei MakarovRW1958RussiaChelyabinsk, Soviet Union
27Phil EspositoC1942CanadaSault Ste Marie, Ontario
28Glenn HallG1931CanadaHumboldt, Saskatchewan
29Bobby ClarkeC1949CanadaFlin Flon, Manitoba
30Martin BrodeurG1972CanadaMontreal, Quebec
31Bryan TrottierC1956CanadaVal Marie, Saskatchewan
32Joe SakicC1969CanadaBurnaby, British Columbia
33Cyclone TaylorD / R1884CanadaTara, Ontario
34Bill CookRW1895CanadaBrantford, Ontario
35Terry SawchukG1929CanadaWinnipeg, Manitoba
36Mike BossyRW1957CanadaMontreal, Quebec
37Larry RobinsonD1951CanadaWinchester, Ontario
38Ted LindsayLW1925CanadaRenfrew, Ontario
39Newsy LalondeC1887CanadaCornwall, Ontario
40Steve YzermanC1965CanadaCranbrook, British Columbia
41Chris CheliosD1962United StatesChicago, Illinois
42Frank BoucherC1901CanadaOttawa, Ontario
43Valeri KharlamovLW1948RussiaMoscow, Soviet Union
44King ClancyD1902CanadaOttawa, Ontario
45Syl AppsC1915CanadaParis, Ontario
46Ken DrydenG1947CanadaHamilton, Ontario
47Brad ParkD1948CanadaToronto, Ontario
48Paul CoffeyD1961CanadaWeston, Ontario
49Henri RichardC1936CanadaMontreal, Quebec
50Vladislav TretiakG1952RussiaOrudyevo, Soviet Union
51Peter ForsbergC1973SwedenOrnskoldsvik, Sweden
52Evgeni MalkinC1986RussiaMagnitogorsk, Soviet Union
53Milt SchmidtC1918CanadaKitchener, Ontario
54Pierre PiloteD1931CanadaKenogami, Quebec
55Charlie ConacherRW1909CanadaToronto, Ontario
56Frank BrimsekG1915United StatesEveleth, Minnesota
57Sprague CleghornD1890CanadaMontreal, Quebec
58Ted KennedyC1925CanadaPort Colborne, Ontario
59Chris ProngerD1974CanadaDryden, Ontario
60Bernie GeoffrionRW1931CanadaMontreal, Quebec
61Earl SeibertD1911CanadaBerlin, Ontario
62Andy BathgateRW1932CanadaWinnipeg, Manitoba
63Marcel DionneC1951CanadaDrummondville, Quebec
64Scott StevensD1964CanadaKitchener, Ontario
65Tim HortonD1930CanadaCochrane, Ontario
66Georges VezinaG1887CanadaChicoutimi, Quebec
67Al MacInnisD1963CanadaInverness, Nova Scotia
68Dickie MooreLW1931CanadaMontreal, Quebec
69Teemu SelanneRW1970FinlandHelsinki, Finland
70Anatoli FirsovLW1941RussiaMoscow, Soviet Union
71Frank MahovlichLW1938CanadaTimmins, Ontario
72Joe MaloneC1890CanadaQuebec City, Quebec
73Dit ClapperRW / D1907CanadaNewmarket, Ontario
74Clint BenedictG1892CanadaOttawa, Ontario
75Charlie GardinerG1904CanadaEdinburgh, Scotland
76Jari KurriRW1960FinlandHelsinki, Finland
77Max BentleyC1920CanadaDelisle, Saskatchewan
78Aurele JoliatLW1901CanadaOttawa, Ontario
79Cy DennenyLW1891CanadaFarran's Point, Ontario
80Brett HullRW1964United StatesBelleville, Ontario
81Elmer LachC1918CanadaNokomis, Saskatchewan
82Bill DurnanG1916CanadaToronto, Ontario
83Turk BrodaG1914CanadaBrandon, Manitoba
84Borje SalmingD1951SwedenKiruna, Sweden
85Ed BelfourG1965CanadaCarman, Manitoba
86Boris MikhailovRW1944RussiaMoscow, Soviet Union
87Bill CowleyC1912CanadaBristol, Quebec
88Sergei FedorovC / D1969RussiaPskov, Soviet Union
89Zdeno CharaD1977SlovakiaTrencin, Czechoslovakia
90Bill GadsbyD1927CanadaCalgary, Alberta
91Joe ThorntonC1979CanadaSt. Thomas, Ontario
92Nels StewartC1902CanadaMontreal, Quebec
93Patrick KaneRW1988United StatesBuffalo, New York
94Duncan KeithD1983CanadaWinnipeg, Manitoba
95Mark HoweLW / D1955United StatesDetroit, Michigan
96Eric LindrosC1973CanadaLondon, Ontario
97Brian LeetchD1968United StatesCorpus Christi, Texas
98Martin St. LouisRW1975CanadaLaval, Quebec
99Dave KeonC1940CanadaNoranda, Quebec
100Sid AbelC1918CanadaMelville, Saskatchewan
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Discussion Threads
Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 1
(Son of) Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 1
Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 2
Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 2 (Back in the Habit)
Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 3
Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 3 (Secret of the Ooze)
Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 4
Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 5
Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 6
Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 7
Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 8
Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 9
Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 10
Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 11
Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 12
Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 13
Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 14
Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 15
Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 16
Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 17
Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 18
Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 19
Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 20
Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 21

Preliminary Discussion Threads

Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread
Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (The Sequel)
Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (With a Vengeance)
Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (Citizens on Patrol)
Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (Revenge of Michael Myers)

Round 1 Process
Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Aggregate List
Top 120 lists - The Unanimous 66 Players

Voting Records
Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Voting Results
Voting Record - quoipourquoi, Canadiens1958, steve141
Voting Record - ted1971, Dennis Bonvie, pappyline
Voting Record - Sentinel, Hockey Outsider, ChiTownPhilly
Voting Record - Art of Sedinery, ImporterExporter, DannyGallivan
Voting Record - ResilientBeast, Kyle McMahon, ehhedler
Voting Record - Dr John Carlson, TheDevilMadeMe, JoseTheodore2002
Voting Record - Batis, seventieslord, MXD
Voting Record - Johnny Engine, Kreuzer, Iceman
Voting Record - VanIslander, Mike Farkas, tony d
Voting Record - BenchBrawl, bobholly39

Voting Record - blogofmike, TheGeneral, The Macho Man
 
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seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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Keith's Norris voting is seriously disappointing outside his winning years I must say. And I don't feel like he was neglected or whatever either...he did mix great years with rather pedestrian seasons...his run in 2015 was something for the history books, though. Amazing post-season.

I thought Bill Gadsby would be up for voting by now, maybe next round then...not sure what his playoff reputation is like.

Since 2010, aside from the years he won, Keith has been typically underrated by Norris voting. He's been a stud almost all the time, but every year there's some one or two-year wonder who is thought to have a better season and he ends up dropping to 7th, 8th, 10th in voting when by reputation he was top-5 for about 8 years straight.
 
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MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,654
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I rather have us discuss the merits of Duncan Keith than those of Dit Clapper, Joe Malone and Frank Mahovlich at this point.
 
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quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
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Hockeytown, MI
Since 2010, aside from the years he won, Keith has been typically underrated by Norris voting. He's been a stud almost all the time, but every year there's some one or two-year wonder who is thought to have a better season and he ends up dropping to 7th, 8th, 10th in voting when by reputation he was top-5 for about 8 years straight.

Any idea if his THN rankings among Defensemen provides similar evidence to what was put forward two rounds ago for Chris Pronger (top-3 from 1998-2008)?

Having said that, Keith was on one of the league’s more successful teams, so you’d think he would have caught more of a break in voting than he did - if only just on reputation from winning the Cup every other year.
 

Batis

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"Ironic", huh? Well, I'm missing the irony here...
I haven't seen anyone in the project claim that Firsov should be in the top 10, or that he should definitely be ranked above Kharlamov (and certainly not above Makarov and/or Fetisov). But "it would have been nice" if Firsov had been at least available around the same time as Kharlamov and Tretiak, because there are some arguments for him.
I’ll state that, I rated and still do rate Firsov over Kharlamov and Tretiak. FWIW.
I prefer Firsov over Tretiak, and Kharlamov vs Firsov is pretty much a toss-up for me.

I am also in the Firsov over Kharlamov camp although I would probably agree that it is close enough to be called a toss-up. To me it seems like one reason for why Firsov often gets underrated is that it often seems to get forgotten how close in time the peaks of Firsov and Kharlamov were with the former peaking ca 66/67-70/71 and the latter peaking ca 71/72-75/76. So while their peaks did not overlap they happened right after each other. Yes the 71/72-75/76 timeframe was surely a stronger time for European hockey than the 66/67-70/71 timeframe was but the difference seems to really be blown way out of proportion by some. It is again worth noting that despite being 26-years old during the first season that the Soviet player of the year voting was conducted Firsov still managed to achieve a higher 3-year average in the SPOTY voting than Kharlamov. In the 5- and 7-year averages Firsov falls clearly behind Kharlamov though but that is mainly because of the award being introduced relatively late in his career which means he does not have so many top seasons covered by the voting. Later in this post I will make some estimates for how Firsovs voting record roughly could have looked had the award been around his entire prime. But first here are the actual voting shares numbers among forwards.

Soviet player of the year voting shares (67/68-89/90)

3-year average
1 Sergey Makarov 0.747
2 Anatoly Firsov 0.650
3 Vladimir Krutov 0.630
4 Valery Kharlamov 0.628
5 Alexander Maltsev 0.592
6 Boris Mikhailov 0.434
7 Vyacheslav Starshinov 0.432
8 Vladimir Petrov 0.411
9 Helmuts Balderis 0.304
10 Vyacheslav Bykov 0.303

5-year average
1 Sergey Makarov 0.660
2 Valery Kharlamov 0.522
3 Vladimir Krutov 0.516
4 Alexander Maltsev 0.469
5 Anatoly Firsov 0.418
6 Boris Mikhailov 0.358
7 Vladimir Petrov 0.287
8 Vyacheslav Starshinov 0.264 (Only recieved votes in 4 seasons)
9 Helmuts Balderis 0.192
10 Vyacheslav Bykov 0.189

7-year average
1 Sergey Makarov 0.551
2 Valery Kharlamov 0.440
3 Vladimir Krutov 0.388
4 Alexander Maltsev 0.383
5 Boris Mikhailov 0.316
6 Anatoly Firsov 0.299 (Only recieved votes in 5 seasons)
7 Vladimir Petrov 0.218
8 Vyacheslav Starshinov 0.189 (Only recieved votes in 4 seasons)
9 Igor Larionov 0.144
10 Alexander Yakushev 0.140

Firsovs SPOTY voting record really is very impressive considering how late the award was introduced. Now I will make some rough estimates for how I think Firsovs SPOTY voting record would have looked had the award been around during his entire prime.

Let us look at Firsovs strongest pre-SPOTY seasons. First up we have 66/67 when Firsov had a very similar season to in 67/68 where he won the SPOTY with a landslide margin and had the highest voting share of his career with 0.895. Based on a combination of the eye test and comparing the achiviements (which are very similar) I would probably even say that Firsovs 66/67 season appears to have been slightly superior to his 67/68 season. But to be conservative let us estimate that Firsovs 66/67 voting share would be roughly on the average level of his two strongest wins in the voting (67/68 and 70/71). That would give him an estimated 0.769 voting share during the 66/67 season.

In 65/66 Firsov also has a case for having been the top Soviet player of the season (or at the very least one of the top players) as @DN28 showed very well in this post. Hockey in Czechoslovakia and Europe from 1968 to 1990 (some awards and stats) To make an estimate for this kind of season where Firsov was among the strongest canditates for winning the award I combined the scores of his less dominant win in the voting (68/69) with his strongest season where he did not win the award (71/72). Doing this gives us an estimated 0.253 score during the 65/66 season.

In 63/64 Firsov also had a rather strong season where he made the Soviet All-Star team. Generally the players who were First Team All-Stars also did well in the SPOTY voting so it seems likely that Firsov would have another rather strong result here. With that said this season does not strike me as any truly dominant season from Firsov and making an estimate I would probably have him somewhere around the score he had in 71/72 which was 0.094.

Adding these estimated scores to his actual voting record would give Firsov this estimated overall SPOTY voting record.

63/64: 0.094 (est)
65/66: 0.253 (est)
66/67: 0.769 (est)
67/68: 137/153 = 0.895
68/69: 68/165 = 0.412
69/70: 10/204 = 0.049
70/71: 131/204 = 0.642
71/72: 17/180 = 0.094
3-year: 0.769 (est)
5-year: 0.594 (est)
7-year: 0.451 (est)

This is how Firsov compares to the other top forwards when it comes to SPOTY voting shares when making these estimates for his strongest pre-SPOTY seasons.

3-year average
1 Anatoly Firsov 0.769 (est)
2 Sergey Makarov 0.747
3 Vladimir Krutov 0.630
4 Valery Kharlamov 0.628
5 Alexander Maltsev 0.592
6 Boris Mikhailov 0.434

5-year average
1 Sergey Makarov 0.660
2 Anatoly Firsov 0.594 (est)
3 Valery Kharlamov 0.522
4 Vladimir Krutov 0.516
5 Alexander Maltsev 0.469
6 Boris Mikhailov 0.358

7-year average
1 Sergey Makarov 0.551
2 Anatoly Firsov 0.451 (est)
3 Valery Kharlamov 0.440
4 Vladimir Krutov 0.388
5 Alexander Maltsev 0.383
6 Boris Mikhailov 0.316

Before taking strenght of era into account I think that Firsov clearly would have the 2nd strongest SPOTY voting record of all forwards. When it comes to 3-year averages Firsov would probably even rival Makarov for having the strongest peak.

But then we have the difficult task of deciding how much we should adjust Firsovs voting record based on strenght of era. Personally I think that one would have to clearly overrate the difference of strenght between the Soviet hockey of the late 60's and the Soviet hockey of the mid 70's for having much basis in saying that Kharlamovs voting record is more impressive than Firsovs voting record. Especially considering that Firsov had his peak years between 66/67 and 70/71 while Kharlamov had his peak years between 71/72 and 75/76. So I would personally say that Firsov has the strongest case for being the 2nd greatest Soviet forward even if a strong argument of course can be made for Kharlamov as well. But if Kharlamov is ahead it is only by the smallest of margins.

I was going to wait to post this until Firsov becomes available but since there already is a Firsov discussion going on I figured I could go ahead and do it already.
 
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VMBM

And it didn't even bring me down
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I am also in the Firsov over Kharlamov camp although I would probably agree that it is close enough to be called a toss-up. To me it seems like one reason for why Firsov often gets underrated is that it often seems to get forgotten how close in time the peaks of Firsov and Kharlamov were with the former peaking ca 66/67-70/71 and the latter peaking ca 71/72-75/76. So while their peaks did not overlap they happened right after each other. Yes the 71/72-75/76 timeframe was surely a stronger time for European hockey than the 66/67-70/71 timeframe was but the difference seems to really be blown way out of proportion by some.

The insurmountable problem for some seems to be that his "opposition was mostly very weak", in other words, he did not (get a chance to) play against NHL best. But for the reasons e.g. you've listed, it is very easy for me to give him the benefit of the doubt.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
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Since 2010, aside from the years he won, Keith has been typically underrated by Norris voting. He's been a stud almost all the time, but every year there's some one or two-year wonder who is thought to have a better season and he ends up dropping to 7th, 8th, 10th in voting when by reputation he was top-5 for about 8 years straight.

And before 2010, he saw limited PP time. No way was 2nd Team AS Dan Boyle better than Keith in 2008-09, but it's nearly impossible for a defenseman to get recognition without being on the first PP, and Chicago had big money Brian Campbell for that.
 

Canadiens1958

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The insurmountable problem for some seems to be that his "opposition was mostly very weak", in other words, he did not (get a chance to) play against NHL best. But for the reasons e.g. you've listed, it is very easy for me to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Again, you seem to be referring to Firsov.

As illustrated recently the SPOTY was actually a CSKAPOTY.

Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time

Specifically, Firsov was not playing against the best Soviet players either. He was playing with the best Soviet players. True for virtually all SPOTY winners.

1965-1969. Canadian National / Olympic team was weak for three reasons.

1.) Players were turning pro as a consequence of the 1967 NHL expansion.

2.) Salaries were increasing.

3.) Senior amateur hockey was fading.

1970 to 1972 and beyond, Canada did not participate in the WHCs or the Olympics.

Firsov, simply did not earn a spot in 1972 on the Soviet Team. Kharlamov and Yakushev were preferred. Choices proved to be correct.
 

The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
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And before 2010, he saw limited PP time. No way was 2nd Team AS Dan Boyle better than Keith in 2008-09, but it's nearly impossible for a defenseman to get recognition without being on the first PP, and Chicago had big money Brian Campbell for that.
Similar thing happened with Hedman. He never got 1st PP time because we always tried to force a RHS on the top PP to feed Stamkos. He gets top PP time, suddenly he's a lock for 60+ points a year.

One thing that holds Keith back *a bit*, is he's a pretty bad goalscorer. He has 3 seasons with double-digit goals total, with 14, 12, and 10 being his highest. It's not a huge knock in my book - he's a great puck mover and a great skater, but he really has a muffin shot.
 

Batis

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Again, you seem to be referring to Firsov.

As illustrated recently the SPOTY was actually a CSKAPOTY.

Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time

Specifically, Firsov was not playing against the best Soviet players either. He was playing with the best Soviet players. True for virtually all SPOTY winners.

Very strange critisism to make against Firsov considering that he probably played in the most balanced era of Soviet Hockey when it comes to where the top players played and especially Spartak had a very strong team over many years. This is also illustrated by that in Firsovs 3 Soviet player of the year wins the majority of his top competitors played for other teams. In 67/68 number 2, 3 and 4 in the voting played for other teams, in 68/69 number 2 and 3 in the voting played for other teams and in 70/71 number 3 (who was tied with number 2) in the voting played for another team. So saying that Firsov virtually only competed with players from his own team for the Soviet player of the year award is just plain incorrect.
 
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Theokritos

Global Moderator
Apr 6, 2010
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Specifically, Firsov was not playing against the best Soviet players either. He was playing with the best Soviet players. True for virtually all SPOTY winners.

Bingo. In other words: This affects almost all Soviet forwards, including e.g. Kharlamov and Makarov who have already made the list. In fact in Firsov's day the Soviet league was still a bit more competitive than in the Tikhonov era.

Firsov, simply did not earn a spot in 1972 on the Soviet Team. Kharlamov and Yakushev were preferred. Choices proved to be correct.

If Kharlamov and Yakushev were the only forwards on the Soviet team you would have a point. But of course there were plenty of others, including many who were never even close to Firsov's 1972-1973 level. It's plain as day that the omission of Firsov was not based on merit.
 

Canadiens1958

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Very strange critisism to make against Firsov considering that he probably played in the most balanced era of Soviet Hockey when it comes to where the top players played and especially Spartak had a very strong team over many years. This is also illustrated by that in Firsovs 3 Soviet player of the year wins the majority of his top competitors played for other teams. In 67/68 number 2, 3 and 4 in the voting played for other teams, in 68/69 number 2 and 3 in the voting played for other teams and in 70/71 number 3 (who was tied with number 2) in the voting played for another team. So saying that Firsov virtually only competed with players from his own team for the Soviet player of the year award is just plain incorrect.

So from the three seasons you selected, from the top 4 players, a total of 12, 6 played for CSKA. Half played for CSKA even when the league was strong.

So, the majority of the competition was not outside CSKA.

Nice semantic trick overlooking the actual winner.

Another reason to be careful with Soviet league data.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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And before 2010, he saw limited PP time. No way was 2nd Team AS Dan Boyle better than Keith in 2008-09, but it's nearly impossible for a defenseman to get recognition without being on the first PP, and Chicago had big money Brian Campbell for that.

Right, good point. I shouldn't have limited it to 2010, because he was elite one more season before that, arguably two.
 

Batis

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So from the three seasons you selected, from the top 4 players, a total of 12, 6 played for CSKA. Half played for CSKA even when the league was strong.

So, the majority of the competition was not outside CSKA.

Nice semantic trick overlooking the actual winner.

Another reason to be careful with Soviet league data.

It was not a semantic trick as I was looking at Firsovs main competition for the award the years he won. Unless you think that Firsov was competing with himself for the award that is.
 

Canadiens1958

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It was not a semantic trick as I was looking at Firsovs main competition for the award the years he won. Unless you think that Firsov was competing with himself for the award that is.

Players from other teams were competing with Firsov.

So there were 6 CSKA slots and six non-CSKA slots in the competition.
 

Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
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And before 2010, he saw limited PP time. No way was 2nd Team AS Dan Boyle better than Keith in 2008-09, but it's nearly impossible for a defenseman to get recognition without being on the first PP, and Chicago had big money Brian Campbell for that.

Keith also didn't match up against the opponent's top line. Not a shutdown guy.
 

Batis

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Players from other teams were competing with Firsov.

So there were 6 CSKA slots and six non-CSKA slots in the competition.

Well the original discussion was about Firsov and seemingly based on the SPOTY voting you stated that "Firsov was not playing against the best Soviet players either. He was playing with the best Soviet players." So it was easy to think that you were talking about Firsovs competition considering this. Not the competition that players on other teams faced. That is something you only brought up after I had showed that Firsov in fact faced plenty of top competition from other teams during his strongest seasons.
 

Canadiens1958

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Well the original discussion was about Firsov and seemingly based on the SPOTY voting you stated that "Firsov was not playing against the best Soviet players either. He was playing with the best Soviet players." So it was easy to think that you were talking about Firsovs competition considering this. Not the competition that players on other teams faced. That is something you only brought up after I had showed that Firsov in fact faced plenty of top competition from other teams during his strongest seasons.

Let's look at all of Firsov's seasons not just cherry-picked ones.
 

Batis

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Let's look at all of Firsov's seasons not just cherry-picked ones.

You mean like in 69/70 when the entire top 3 in the voting came from other teams or in 71/72 when 2 out of the 4 players ahead of Firsov in the voting came from other teams. So during the part of Firsovs prime covered by the SPOTY voting (67/68-71/72) it is very clear that a large part of the top competition that he faced came from other teams than CSKA.

But considering that when competing for an individual award like the SPOTY the player in question competes with all other players eligible for the award including his teammates I don't really see how it matters that much whether the top competition comes from other teams or your own team. To win the award you either way have to beat out all of your teammates as well.
 
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VMBM

And it didn't even bring me down
Sep 24, 2008
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But considering that when competing for an individual award like the SPOTY the player in question competes with all other players eligible for the award including his teammates I don't really see how it matters that much whether the top competition comes from other teams or your own team. To win the award you either way have to beat out all of your teammates as well.

Hey I know! It was his teammates that made him good! :sarcasm:
 
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Canadiens1958

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2,768
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
You mean like in 69/70 when the entire top 3 in the voting came from other teams or in 71/72 when 2 out of the 4 players ahead of Firsov in the voting came from other teams. So during the part of Firsovs prime covered by the SPOTY voting (67/68-71/72) it is very clear that a large part of the top competition that he faced came from other teams than CSKA.

But considering that when competing for an individual award like the SPOTY the player in question competes with all other players eligible for the award including his teammates I don't really see how it matters that much whether the top competition comes from other teams or your own team. To win the award you either way have to beat out all of your teammates as well.

Going in circles.

Teammates are a benefit impacting deployment.

You do not see similar voting patterns and circumstances in the NHL or NA pro leagues
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,768
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
Firsov is the topic of discussion but it matters for all Soviet League players from start to finish of the SPOTY.

1972 Summit Series. Firsov LW/C generously would have been a third probably fourth liner.
 
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