Top 10 in Scoring & Selke Voting

[The Panther]

The whole Selke thing is still beyond my comprehension. I think the NHL might be advised to make a detailed explanation of what the criteria are, because I bet a lot of the voters don't have any fixed idea of it. I can see John Doe-writer in Los Angeles from the late-80s to mid-90s filling out his NHL awards form at the end of March, and with 20 minutes to FAX it in to head office, he has to put down names for the Selke. He quickly writes down that year's 'sexy choice' for #1, writes down his own team's best penalty killer as #2, and then... "Guy Carbonneau"? Writes him down, as the default choice, having watched three Canadiens' games all year.

I don't mean to be cynical about it, but I don't really think many players in the top-10 in scoring are the best "defensive" forwards in the League. I just don't know what it means.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

There are two additions to the list in 2017.

Sidney Crosby earns a spot on the list for the second year in a row. He finished second in scoring, and was 10th in Selke voting.

Nicklas Backstrom has a place on this list for the first time since 2010. He quietly placed 4th in scoring, and 7th in Selke voting.

Brad Marchand nearly made the list. He was T-5th in scoring, and was a single voting point out of finishing T-10th for the Selke.

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

It is a crime that Marian Hossa never won a Selke. He should have been on this list during his prime. The most complete winger I've seen play bar none. In his prime, he was an offensive dynamo, with Selke caliber defense. I think that the big reason this happened is that he got screwed by Sens management, and ended up in Atlanta for his best years, after signing a huge extension and being traded for Dany Heatley.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

It is a crime that Marian Hossa never won a Selke. He should have been on this list during his prime. The most complete winger I've seen play bar none. In his prime, he was an offensive dynamo, with Selke caliber defense. I think that the big reason this happened is that he got screwed by Sens management, and ended up in Atlanta for his best years, after signing a huge extension and being traded for Dany Heatley.

Hossa was definitely good enough to have a "top ten and ten" season. Unfortunately he never got much support for the Selke until late in his career (he was top ten in Selke voting in 2013, 2014 and 2015 only, when obviously he wasn't the scorer he used to be).

 

[Hockey Outsider]

This thread (specifically the first post) has been updated after the data migration on HFBoards. Let me know if you see any errors/problems.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

There were two additions to this list in 2018 - Kopitar and Crosby.

It was Kopitar's first "top ten and ten" season. Crosby has now done this three years in a row (something previously done only by Kurri, Francis and Sakic).

Brad Marchand was a close call (10th in Selke voting, and 4 points out of the top ten in scoring, despite missing 14 games).

 

[Canadiens1958]

Would be interesting to see a forward win the Ross and Selke during one season or at least during a career. Bobby Orr did it twice, winning the Ross and Norris the same season.

 

[Johnny Engine]

Brad Marchand was a close call (3rd in Selke voting, and 4 points out of the top ten in scoring, despite missing 14 games).

Small point of correction - Marchand finished 10th in Selke voting. Bergeron finished 3rd, but wasn't close to the top 10 in points.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I'm gonna nitpick while it's fresh in my head...I get that Crosby has shouldered the load defensively for his line now that Pascal Dupuis is gone and Sid plays with two kids that don't play D almost all the time...Crosby finishing top 10 for the Selke (even via fringe voting) is pretty disingenuous...it's been over a decade since I have missed even a single Pens game, and there's guys that definitely should be in that spot over him...Mark Scheifele for instance...

Sid's two-way game (that gets on the Selke radar at least) really only surfaces in the playoffs. He's fine and all, he is a very smart player and he does the work...but he shouldn't be soliciting votes really...particularly this year...

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Small point of correction - Marchand finished 10th in Selke voting. Bergeron finished 3rd, but wasn't close to the top 10 in points.

Good catch - I updated the wording.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I'm gonna nitpick while it's fresh in my head...I get that Crosby has shouldered the load defensively for his line now that Pascal Dupuis is gone and Sid plays with two kids that don't play D almost all the time...Crosby finishing top 10 for the Selke (even via fringe voting) is pretty disingenuous...it's been over a decade since I have missed even a single Pens game, and there's guys that definitely should be in that spot over him...Mark Scheifele for instance...

Sid's two-way game (that gets on the Selke radar at least) really only surfaces in the playoffs. He's fine and all, he is a very smart player and he does the work...but he shouldn't be soliciting votes really...particularly this year...

True but Jean Beliveau went thru similar stages the second half of his career - Ferguson, Rousseau, Cournoyer, Roberto and keeping such a line defensively sound is a huge task.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Sid wasn't a finalist (Selke) but I'd wager he's going to be in the top 10 again this year (was easily his best defensive season) which would make him just the 2nd player in NHL history to finish top 10 in both these categories 4 times.

Kurri did it 6 times (5 in a row). Nobody else did it more than 3 times.

Impressive, most impressive.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Sid wasn't a finalist (Selke) but I'd wager he's going to be in the top 10 again this year (was easily his best defensive season) which would make him just the 2nd player in NHL history to finish top 10 in both these categories 4 times.

Kurri did it 6 times (5 in a row). Nobody else did it more than 3 times.

Impressive, most impressive.

Minor correction, Francis did this four times (all consecutive as well).

Trivia - during these "top ten and ten" seasons, Kurri finished 14th in Hart voting once (no votes in any other year). Francis finished 15th once (no votes in any other year). Crosby has finished 2nd, 2nd, 17th, and at least 3rd this year (maybe 2nd, but my money's on third).

 

[ImporterExporter]

Minor correction, Francis did this four times (all consecutive as well).

You're right! Thank you for the catch.

 

[SealsFan]

Writes him down, as the default choice, having watched three Canadiens' games all year.

This and a few other comments in the thread, such as the reliance on +/- for awhile, got me to thinking -- would the Selke be more accurate if voted on by the coaches instead of journalists? In a 31-team NHL, what hometown writer sees enough of the opposing teams to make an informed decision? Whereas a coach will be watching game films of an opposing team who he'll be facing next week and is assessing players with a different set of eyes than that of a writer.

 

[decma]

I can see John Doe-writer in Los Angeles from the late-80s to mid-90s filling out his NHL awards form at the end of March, and with 20 minutes to FAX it in to head office, he has to put down names for the Selke. He quickly writes down that year's 'sexy choice' for #1, writes down his own team's best penalty killer as #2, and then... "Guy Carbonneau"? Writes him down, as the default choice, having watched three Canadiens' games all year.

In a 31-team NHL, what hometown writer sees enough of the opposing teams to make an informed decision?

I agree with both of you. Be it in the 31-team NHL or the 21-team NHL, I doubt many voters have watched a significant sample of games of players other than the players on the team they cover.

But doesn't this apply to all voting (other trophies and all-star voting), not just Selke voting?

 

[Thenameless]

Sid wasn't a finalist (Selke) but I'd wager he's going to be in the top 10 again this year (was easily his best defensive season) which would make him just the 2nd player in NHL history to finish top 10 in both these categories 4 times.

Kurri did it 6 times (5 in a row). Nobody else did it more than 3 times.

Impressive, most impressive.

In reality, Bobby Clarke probably did it more than three times.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

none of the three finalists, but you have to think sasha barkov achieved it this year. surprised he wasn't a finalist.

 

[ImporterExporter]

In reality, Bobby Clarke probably did it more than three times.

Agreed. Clarke was just a casualty of the award not existing for the prime of his career. He'd have easily ended up on this list numerous times.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

none of the three finalists, but you have to think sasha barkov achieved it this year. surprised he wasn't a finalist.

Bergeron only missed it due to injury.

He's top 3 in voting
and 8th in PPG at 1.22 (79 in 65 games)

 

[Hockey Outsider]

There were two additions to this list in 2019 - Crosby and Barkov.

It was Barkov's first "top ten and ten" season. Crosby has now done this four years (all consecutive) - only Kurri has more "top ten and ten" seasons in total. Although Crosby has become noticeably better defensively over his career, I feel like his recent placements in the Selke trophy are, at least partially, based on reputation - would anybody seriously argue that he's as good a two-way forward as Kurri or Ron Francis (who also has four "top ten and ten" seasons)?

Patrice Bergeron surely would have made this list for the first time in his career if not for injuries (3rd in Selke voting despite missing 17 games, and he was 8th in points per game).

Another close call - Braden Point was 9th in Selke voting and finished 12th in scoring (four points out of the top ten).

Ryan O'Reilly won the Selke and Conn Smythe - what a week for him. I believe he's the only player in NHL history, aside from Bob Gainey, to do both in the same season.

 

[ImporterExporter]

There were two additions to this list in 2019 - Crosby and Barkov.

It was Barkov's first "top ten and ten" season. Crosby has now done this four years (all consecutive) - only Kurri has more "top ten and ten" seasons in total. Although Crosby has become noticeably better defensively over his career, I feel like his recent placements in the Selke trophy are, at least partially, based on reputation - would anybody seriously argue that he's as good a two-way forward as Kurri or Ron Francis (who also has four "top ten and ten" seasons)?

Patrice Bergeron surely would have made this list for the first time in his career if not for injuries (3rd in Selke voting despite missing 17 games, and he was 8th in points per game).

Another close call - Braden Point was 9th in Selke voting and finished 12th in scoring (four points out of the top ten).

Ryan O'Reilly won the Selke and Conn Smythe - what a week for him. I believe he's the only player in NHL history, aside from Bob Gainey, to do both in the same season.

First off, thanks HO for doing these!

I've watched about 95% of Sid's games live (tv or in person) since day one and I think this past year he certainly deserved the praise and 4th place finish (and 2nd in the Hart). The previous 3 were a bit much, but once Mike Sullivan came in Sid really started engaging more defensively. He's long been responsible but nothing special one way or the other. As I've said many times, he's on the Yzerman career arc as far as his style of play goes.

Sid's favorite player growing up was Stevie Y. Yzerman was an offensive dynamo early in his career (like Sid, just not quite as dominant offensively) and started sacrificing his offense for defense as he got further along into his 30's. Scotty Bowman was a huge influence (or dictator if you like haha) on that change of course.

Crosby is just such a pro. He understands the grind. He understands the history of the game, has legends at his disposal to bounce questions off of. Nobody will ever question his legendary work ethic and part of that is striving to be the most complete hockey player yo can be, especially as you lose just a little bit of speed, a little bit of mustard on the shots, etc.

I think he can and will (deserve) to win a Selke before his career is over. The skill/IQ is there. The will is there. Just a matter of time.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Ryan O'Reilly won the Selke and Conn Smythe - what a week for him. I believe he's the only player in NHL history, aside from Bob Gainey, to do both in the same season.

hmm, who was close?

zetterberg was 3rd in selke voting when he won his smythe

sakic was (probably) 2nd for both in 2001

i’m guessing bergeron was top 3 in CS voting in 2011, when he was 4th in selke voting

toews was 4 and 1 in 2010

brind’amour has a likely 1 and 2

gilmour has maybe a 1 and... 3-5?

would datsyuk have placed at all in smythe voting in 2008?

 

[Hockey Outsider]

We have one addition to the list for 2020 - Brad Marchand, who finished 6th in scoring and 9th in Selke voting. (He was also a single 5th-place vote away from accomplishing the same thing in 2017).

 

[Hockey Outsider]

For the second year in a row, Brad Marchand finished in the top ten in scoring (3rd), and the top ten in Selke voting (9th).

Mitch Marner also earned a spot on the list - finishing 4th in scoring and 10th in Selke voting. Maybe I'm underrating his two-way play, but I didn't think he was a particularly good two-way player. I'd probably go as far as saying he's one of the worst defensive players on the list. Or have I underestimated him?

There were a number of close misses. Aleksander Barkov won the Selke and was four points out of the top ten in scoring. Mark Stone finished 3rd in Selke voting, and was a single point out of the top ten in scoring. Leon Draisaitl finished 2nd in scoring, and 13th in Selke voting.