Top 10 in Scoring & Selke Voting

[Sadekuuro]

datsyuk uses his stick very well, probably better than zetterberg does, but his body positioning is not as good.

This is, by my estimation, the major difference between the two defensively. Datsyuk's stickwork is second to none, but Z is the guy you want to shadow an elite center, the guy who always keeps his body between his mark and the net.

 

[pitseleh]

imo, the main difference between datsyuk and zetterberg in defensive play is that datsyuk is more offensive-minded. i think that is the main reason why datsyuk's positioning is not as good as zetterberg's. datsyuk is too often looking to counterattack.

To me at least, that's what makes Datsyuk great. I don't think there's a forward in the league that gets the play moving in the right direction better than Datsyuk. It may impact his defensive play in the traditional sense (body positioning, etc.) but I think it has an effect on the number of GA scored while he's on the ice.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Body Positioning

What do the various posters mean by body positioning.Between the man and the net does not imply stick side. What are the exact attributes that you are all referring to?

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Nicklas Backtrom is the only addition to this list in 2010 (4th in scoring, 10th in Selke voting).

 

[Hockey Outsider]

No new members to the top 10 & 10 club this year. Jonathan Toews just barely misses out (2nd in Selke voting & a single point outside of the top ten in scoring).

 

[Hardyvan123]

Too bad Datsyuk was injured, he was well on his way to doing it this year.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i'm not sure i understand what the motivation for this thread is, so many this is completely OT.

but anyway, kesler this year: selke (almost unanimous), goals (4th), hart (8th), points (15th)

obviously his year was not on fedorov's level, but i have to think that finishing top five in goals and winning the selke has to be extremely rare.

 

[cenas*]

obviously his year was not on fedorov's level, but i have to think that finishing top five in goals and winning the selke has to be extremely rare.

It should be and probably, at some point, was.

 

[tombombadil]

thank you so much for this list. These are my favorite players.

 

[tombombadil]

i'm not sure i understand what the motivation for this thread is, so many this is completely OT.

but anyway, kesler this year: selke (almost unanimous), goals (4th), hart (8th), points (15th)

obviously his year was not on fedorov's level, but i have to think that finishing top five in goals and winning the selke has to be extremely rare.

i think Kesler is a good mention. And he did all that from the second line! I hope in the future he can make this list (and that he stops embellishing!)

Mike Richards, and Mikko Koivu (now that he has a winger) are two guys who could potentially make this list in the future.

 

[tombombadil]

Yes, Babcock uses mainly Zetterberg. But as I said before, one reason has to be Holmstrom. And objectively Datsyuk is better at creating offense, than anybody else in Detroit (including Zetterberg). So, why use Datsyuk only as a shutdown guy? No point at all. And those takeaways mean something, at least when he's head and shoulders above everybody else. +- is tricky, but it's shows also something, when we are comparing team-mates.

And Datsyuk can kill 5 on 3. Look at a game against the Ducks, when Zetterberg was in the box. Datsyuk was monster during that kill.

Datsyuk plays defense a lot like Lidstrom. He uses his stick like nobody else in the league. I even read somewhere, that he picked up that stick-work from Lidstrom, which is logical.

Selke is very hard to judge. And again, we don't have the absolutely best defensive forward in the world. We have an elite group. Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Richards, Koivu, Kesler and some other. Datsyuk delivers better stats (plusminus, takeaways) and that's why he has won it twice. And he have deserved it both times. But he is not better than those other elite guys. But he is not worse either.

Same thing with offense. Who is the best offensive forward in the world? Ovechkin? Malkin? Crosby? Pick your poison!

I must say I really like your idea about teams picking the nominee.

i like everything you said, and i agree about splitting hairs regarding who is the very best, either offensively, or defensively. I think this is why this double top 10 list represents so much.

 

[Murky]

The de-facto criteria for Selke voting has evolved towards two-way play instead of defensive play during the 90's. This makes showing up on this list prior to that even more impressive in my opinion as those players were absolutely top flight defensive players in top-10 scorer's list. Some Selke winners and runner ups in the 80's and before that would not have received a second thought from the voters at later times due to the lack of offensive production. Adequate to good defensive play will get a player a lot of votes these days. This of course only underlines how incredibly underrated Kurri is these days.

 

[tombombadil]

The de-facto criteria for Selke voting has evolved towards two-way play instead of defensive play during the 90's. This makes showing up on this list prior to that even more impressive in my opinion as those players were absolutely top flight defensive players in top-10 scorer's list. Some Selke winners and runner ups in the 80's and before that would not have received a second thought from the voters at later times due to the lack of offensive production. Adequate to good defensive play will get a player a lot of votes these days. This of course only underlines how incredibly underrated Kurri is these days.

yes to all of it

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Nobody joins the ten & ten club in 2012. Anze Kopitar was closest (9th in Selke voting, and 2 points out of 10th place in scoring).

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Datsyuk just added another season to this category. Obviously voting has yet to be completed, but I have to imagine we see 10th in scoring, top 3 in Selke.

Toews will have just missed the cut by a mere point, finishing 13th in scoring with a top 3 Selke finish.

 

[tombombadil]

nice one. I like this list, but had forgotten that it needs adding to every year. It did occur to me that Pav was 10th in scoring, and a Selke candidate yet again, though.

 

[tombombadil]

My two cents on Datsyuk and Zetterberg, as I watch these guys all the time:

Zetterberg takes less chances. Ona loose puck in the offensive zone, he is more likely to assume it is lost and return home than Pavel is. With the puck in the offensive zone he is more likely to circle the perimeter (nice puck protector), and also more likely to simply 'get it at the net' than Datsyuk. Without the puck he is better at gluing himself to his mark than Pav. He is on the PK more often, but in the defensive end I can't tell them apart - they both work very hard, take away lanes, break up plays on the boards, etc.

Datsyuk - like someone said on this thread (years ago), he takes more chances, tries to counterattack. He wins more faceoffs, too. He abandons his check, and hangs around the offensive zone when a puck is loose more often than Z, hoping for a chance at net. He is more likely on offense to drive the net, or try to beat guys one on one. He makes up for his extra second of hanging out offensively with an unparalleled ability to get back and take a puck off his man without taking a hooking penalty. Whether from behind, or fromt he front, or on the boards, offensively or defensively, I have never seen anyone win puck battles so easily. I don't mean that once he has the puck he doesn't lose it, like a Forsberg or Jagr, and I don't mean 'battles' like he shoves guys around (although his strength is way underrated), i mean, the puck is going to end up on his stick way more frequently than it should. And it doesn't matter if his opposition is playing him hard physically, or with the stick. He doesn't move, and he gets the puck. Then he takes a little extra time to decide what he wants to do with it. Lidstrom didn't even do that, Nik always had his next, safe, move planned as he got his stick on it, it was gone. Pav can just take that thing again if he loses it, so he sits on it, and waits to see what develops.

 

[pdd]

Datsyuk just added another season to this category. Obviously voting has yet to be completed, but I have to imagine we see 10th in scoring, top 3 in Selke.

Toews will have just missed the cut by a mere point, finishing 13th in scoring with a top 3 Selke finish.

Zetterberg has a good chance to bust back into the top ten in Selke voting after being "forgotten" by voters. Although he dropped out of the top ten in scoring, and is tied with Toews.

Other close years: Zetterberg 2011 (12th Selke, 8th scoring), 1989 Yzerman (3rd scoring, 11th Selke), 1988 Yzerman (12th in scoring/4th PPG in 64GP, 18th Selke - missed a tie for 10th by 6 points; both gaps likely made up had he not been injured in game 64).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Zetterberg has a good chance to bust back into the top ten in Selke voting after being "forgotten" by voters. Although he dropped out of the top ten in scoring, and is tied with Toews.

Other close years: Zetterberg 2011 (12th Selke, 8th scoring), 1989 Yzerman (3rd scoring, 11th Selke), 1988 Yzerman (12th in scoring/4th PPG in 64GP, 18th Selke - missed a tie for 10th by 6 points; both gaps likely made up had he not been injured in game 64).

Seeing Yzerman in 1989 surprised me, but what do you know? 2 out of 63 voters had him on their Selke ballots, which technically tied him for 11th place in a year when there was actually something of a consensus about the guys at the top.

 

[tombombadil]

Seeing Yzerman in 1989 surprised me, but what do you know? 2 out of 63 voters had him on their Selke ballots, which technically tied him for 11th place in a year when there was actually something of a consensus about the guys at the top.

this actually brings up something interesting that I noticed - the fact that such a tiny part of the voting community, as little as a few votes, can land a guy in the top 10. I've only looked thoroughly through a few year of voting, but there is a distinct dropoff after the Top 5. This list might be better as a Top 5, and Top 10 in scoring.

Conversely, i nearly give the guys from 6-10 in scoring more Selke cred than the guys at the top of the scoring race. As its been stated, voters in some years seem to have been swept up by the hype of the guys at the top (St.Louis, Forsberg, Sakic, etc.)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

this actually brings up something interesting that I noticed - the fact that such a tiny part of the voting community, as little as a few votes, can land a guy in the top 10. I've only looked thoroughly through a few year of voting, but there is a distinct dropoff after the Top 5. This list might be better as a Top 5, and Top 10 in scoring.

Conversely, i nearly give the guys from 6-10 in scoring more Selke cred than the guys at the top of the scoring race. As its been stated, voters in some years seem to have been swept up by the hype of the guys at the top (St.Louis, Forsberg, Sakic, etc.)

I had a similar thought; if being ranked on 2 of 63 ballots is enough to get 11th place, then in some years, 9th and 10th aren't going to be much better, if at all.

Have you found any particular years that are problematic at the lower end of the top 10?

 

[tombombadil]

I had a similar thought; if being ranked on 2 of 63 ballots is enough to get 11th place, then in some years, 9th and 10th aren't going to be much better, if at all.

Have you found any particular years that are problematic at the lower end of the top 10?

No, i haven't/hadn't. it had been a really long time since I looked at a list, too. I just dragged this one up right now -

SELKE 1999/2000

1. Steve Yzerman 431 (32-11-5-2-3)
2. Michal Handzus 188 (6-10-10-2-2)
3. Mike Ricci 125 (3-6-5-9-1)
4. Adam Oates 112 (4-5-3-6-4)
5. Michael Peca 66 (1-5-2-3-2)
6. Pavol Demitra 57 (2-2-4-1-0)
7. Mike Keane 57 (1-3-3-3-2)
8. Todd Marchant 53 (2-3-2-0-2)
9. Guy Carbonneau 39 (2-0-2-2-3)
10. Joe Sakic 37 (1-3-0-2-0)
11. Bobby Holik 29 (0-3-0-2-2)
12. Ron Francis 28 (1-0-2-1-5)
13. John Madden 23 (0-0-1-5-3)
14. Steve Rucchin 20 (0-0-2-2-4)
15. Jere Lehtinen 18 (1-1-0-0-1)
16. Craig Conroy 17 (0-0-2-2-1)
17. Jamie Langenbrunner 14 (0-2-0-0-0)
18. Daymond Langkow 13 (0-0-2-0-3)
19. Mike Modano 13 (0-0-2-0-3)
20. Claude Lapointe 11 (0-0-2-0-1)
21. Pierre Turgeon 10 (1-0-0-0-0)
22. Bates Battaglia 10 (0-1-0-1-0)
23. Mark Recchi 8 (0-1-0-0-1)
24. Benoit Brunet 8 (0-0-1-1-0)
Shaun Van Allen 8 (0-0-1-1-0)
26. Yanic Perreault 8 (0-0-0-2-2)
Stephane Yelle 8 (0-0-0-2-2)
28. Peter Forsberg 7 (0-1-0-0-0)
29. Petr Sykora 7 (0-0-1-0-2)
30. Radek Bonk 6 (0-0-1-0-1)
Additional 16 players received votes for Selke

I suppose that anyone on here with more than a few votes (pretty much those in the Top 10) deserves to be noted as a defensive forward. I kind of feel that if you aren't getting a ton of votes, maybe more than 10, that there is a ton of leeway for homer votes. Whether I'm right or wrong about that, I feel confident that the guys from 6-10 on this list earned much less respect than the first 5. Without pulling up the top 20 scorers that year, I will assume that there may be as little as 10 points separating 5th from 10th. This is a typical year, from what I've seen, and I think that to cut both lists at Top 10, unbalances things a bit.

To illustrate - many people are talking Toews for the Hart this year. Datsyuk hasn't been mentioned, and likely Toews will get the Selke to make up for probably not getting the Hart. Datsyuk got 3 points in Game 48 and made 10th place in points. Toews is a point back. Datsyuk will make this list Toews will not. Now, I'd like to say that I think Datsyuk has been under-appreciated this year, and that I don't think there is much separating him from Toews - BUT, the difference between 10th and 13th in this years scoring is splitting some serious hairs, and if there were 49 games, there might be a complete shuffle in that area of the list. I think that Pav is just as good as Toews defensively, but many don't - so let's pretend that he was simply a responsible two-way guy, like Parise or Kopitar. He'd still get on this list, likely, as those guys will probably receive enough votes to breach the 10 barrier.

I think i'm rambling - anyways, the top 5 in votes, in my mind, is as impressive as making the top 10 in scoring.

 

[Theokritos]

I had a similar thought; if being ranked on 2 of 63 ballots is enough to get 11th place, then in some years, 9th and 10th aren't going to be much better, if at all.

Have you found any particular years that are problematic at the lower end of the top 10?

1982:
#5 Ryan Walter (one 1st place and one 3rd place vote), #6 Dave Keon & Jörgen Pettersson (one 1st place vote each), #8 Don Marcotte & George Ferguson (one 2nd place vote and one 3rd place vote), #10 Neal Broten & Al Secord & Terry O'Reilly & Keith Acton & Mark Lukowich & Butch Goring & Bob Bourne (one 3rd place vote)

1984:
#10 Barry Pederson (two 1st place votes)

1993:
#9 Mike Keane (one 1st place vote and one 3rd place vote), #10 Mike Eagles & Steve Larmer & Adam Oates & Mike Ridley (one 1st place vote each)

1994:
#10 Kelly Miller (two 1st place votes)

All from the era before 4th and 5th place were also included in the voting.

 

[Theokritos]

All from the era before 4th and 5th place were also included in the voting.

Now from the newer era (beginning in 1996) on. Top 10 players in Selke voting who appeared on the lowest numbers of ballots:

1996:
#8 Mark Messier, 6 ballots
#6 Claude Lemieux, 7
#9 Tom Fitzgerald, 7
#10 Adam Graves, 7

1997:
#10 John MacLean, 7
#7 Rob Zamuner, 13

1998:
#10 Igor Larionov, 4
#9 Steve Yzerman, 5

1999:
#5 Curtis Brown, 7
#7 Steve Rucchin, 7
#10 Scott Pellegrin, 8

2000:
#10 Joe Sakic, 6
#6 Pavol Demitra, 9
#8 Todd Marchant, 9
#9 Guy Carbonneau, 9

2001:
#9 Robert Holík, 7
#10 Todd Marchant, 9

2002:
#10 Magnus Arvedson, 10
#9 Joe Sakic, 11

2003:
#9 Matt Cooke, 4
#10 Brian Rolston, 7

2004:
#10 Jere Lehtinen, 12
#9 Fredrik Modin, 13

2006:
#10 Brian Rolston, 18
#9 Henrik Zetterberg, 20

2007:
#9 Daymond Langkow, 32
#7 Henrik Zetterberg, 33

2008:
#9 PJ Axelsson, 19
#10 Daniel Alfredsson, 21

2009:
#8 Zach Parise, 14
#10 Jamie Langenbrunner, 19

2010:
#10 Nicklas Bäckström, 12
#9 Henrik Zetterberg, 15

2011:
#10 Ryan Callahan, 15
#9 Anze Kopitar, 17

 

[DRWCountryClub]

As a Wings fan I think Datsyuk is a better defensive player than Zetterberg, mainly because he controls the flow of the game better than most players in the league. He's better than Zetterberg in the offensive zone, and neutral zone, and a better transitional player.

Zetterberg is better at traditional defense and is a better one on one type of guy, but overall I'll take Datsyuk.

Also of note, Datsyuk finished 3rd in Hart voting in 08/09, a year he won the Selke.