Top 10 2003-2004 take 2

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TVanek26*

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Caniacforever said:
It's Brad Nowell if you're talking about the lead singer of Sublime, in your avatar. If you already knew that, please disregard that. ;)

.

:mad:


I can see what you're saying,but would you draft Patrice Bergeron over Alexander Ovechkin?Because Ovechkin has never played in the NHL while Bergeron already has a 39 point season...
 

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DanielBriere48 said:
:mad:


I can see what you're saying,but would you draft Patrice Bergeron over Alexander Ovechkin?Because Ovechkin has never played in the NHL while Bergeron already has a 39 point season...

Oh of course not. I'm as aware as anybody that potential has to be figured into the equation, but I just don't see how Vanek, who was taken a few picks below Staal, didn't play in the NHL last year, and who most would agree has high bust potential, would go above a player who played all but one game of the entire season for the Carolina Hurricanes, scored 31 points and played a fantastic two way game. That's essentially all i'm saying. Ovechkin should be first for great reason, because he's a rare breed in terms of potential and talent, but Vanek doesn't have that kind of upside. There are quite a few who would rank Zherdev above Staal as well, and I think that logic is faulty as well. I know that the talent level for both are differant, but it would be like taking Pavel Bure over Mike Modano. Pavel Bure could probably score 34 points in 52 games as well, but Modano could score 31 points in 81 games and provide a great deal of defensive presence, leadership, and a lot of the intangibles that go unnoticed through the course of the game. Would there still be people taking Bure because they're obsessed with offense? Probably. That's why Zherdev going ahead of Staal isn't that surprising to me, but Vanek has done like nothing to be ranked ahead of either in my opinion.
 

TVanek26*

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Caniacforever said:
Oh of course not. I'm as aware as anybody that potential has to be figured into the equation, but I just don't see how Vanek, who was taken a few picks below Staal, didn't play in the NHL last year, and who most would agree has high bust potential, would go above a player who played all but one game of the entire season for the Carolina Hurricanes, scored 31 points and played a fantastic two way game. That's essentially all i'm saying. Ovechkin should be first for great reason, because he's a rare breed in terms of potential and talent, but Vanek doesn't have that kind of upside. There are quite a few who would rank Zherdev above Staal as well, and I think that logic is faulty as well. I know that the talent level for both are differant, but it would be like taking Pavel Bure over Mike Modano. Pavel Bure could probably score 34 points in 52 games as well, but Modano could score 31 points in 81 games and provide a great deal of defensive presence, leadership, and a lot of the intangibles that go unnoticed through the course of the game. Would there still be people taking Bure because they're obsessed with offense? Probably. That's why Zherdev going ahead of Staal isn't that surprising to me, but Vanek has done like nothing to be ranked ahead of either in my opinion.

Everyone knows Vanek has 40-50 goal potential.I'm sure Staal will be nice and all,but if Vanek turns out to be what he is projected,I'll take him over Staal.
 

Newfie Bruin

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Stich said:
Not even close.

Why not. He is one of the only players there that has proven he can be at least a Top 6 player in the NHL. Yes I know many others like Ryan Suter and Brandon Coburn have better potential but right now I would choose Bergeron over both. Maybe in 2-3 years the poll should be posted again and we should know by then
 

Epsilon

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Newfie Bruin said:
Why not. He is one of the only players there that has proven he can be at least a Top 6 player in the NHL. Yes I know many others like Ryan Suter and Brandon Coburn have better potential but right now I would choose Bergeron over both. Maybe in 2-3 years the poll should be posted again and we should know by then

So I guess you would take Brent Burns over both of them as well then?
 

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DanielBriere48 said:
Everyone knows Vanek has 40-50 goal potential.I'm sure Staal will be nice and all,but if Vanek turns out to be what he is projected,I'll take him over Staal.

If Vanek has 40-50 goal potential, Staal has 90-100 point potential. Both are gross exagerations in the nature of today's game. I'd say Vanek's upside would be 30-40 goal potential, and that's the same upside that I see in Eric Staal's game, though he's not really considered a goal scoring type player by trade. He's a lot like Mike Modano in terms of the style of game he plays. Either way, i'd still take Staal. Don't get me started on the poster that just put Cam Barker and Braydon Coburn over him.
 

Crosbyfan

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Caniacforever said:
The reason that Bergeron isn't being considered in these discussions is the fact that he was a 2nd round selection, and people don't think he has a considerable amount of upside. Staal was selected 2nd overall. To make the comparison between the two in terms of pre-draft value based on potential is a little ridiculous to me.

One season does not a career make, that's true. However, when you're dealing with a player who has already fairly established the fact that he's going to be a player at the NHL level at the tender age of 19 years old, you can't rank him below could-be's and might be's.

Bergeron won't reach the tender age of 19 for another week or two. How these genii can recognize his inherent lack of potential is beyond me. If Bergeron wins the Art Ross and Selke next year and leads the Bruins to the Stanley Cup a few of these guys might reluctantly move him onto their 03/04 top 10 list (maybe as high as 7th or 8th). Anything short of that don't hold your breath.


Edit: Please read carefully before you claim I predict any or all of the above.
 
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MHJS

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1. Ovechkin
2. Malkin
3. Zherdev
4. Fleury
5. Staal
6. Vanek
7. Horton
8. Phaneuf
9. Barker
10. Michalek
 

EJG123

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I'll put my top 10 and put some reasons with it so you can see my justification before you trash my selections.

1) Ovechkin - A ton of hype, and where there's smoke, there's fire. He's had too many peopl watching him closely for so long that they all can't be wrong.
2) Malkin - see explanation for Ovechkin. These two will be compared to each other for years to come....for the sake of the Pittsburgh fans I hope they don't become the Payton Manning - Ryan Leaf story of hockey ;-)
3) Zherdev - flat out best OFFENSIVE talent of the 2003 draft (so far). With a training camp & a full season...who knows where he could have finished in scoring. Towards the end of the seaon he was really starting to click with his teammates.
4) Stall - great stats to start the season and then tailed off a bit...still going to be a great one. I really see a long succesful career available to him here. Carolina fans would love to see him become the next Ron Francis. A lot of luck needed to put together a career like that but this guy has the talent and attitude.
5) Fleury - loads of talent on a bad team....but this guy will turn this team around when he gets some of the help needed. 3 -4 years this team is going to be dangerous and Fleury is going to be the rock in net that they need.
6) Horton - Todd Bertuzzi in the making. Power forwards take time to develop but he has already shown he is on that path. An injury slowed his development in his rookie season but so what......Florida fans will be blown away when this kid "fills out a bit". Keenan would be shot if he trades him.
7) Phaneuf - Dmen take as long as power forwards to develop. The NHL game is so much faster and it takes a lot to learn how to handle that as opposed to juniors. Phaneuf will be no different and Calgary has a boatload of talent at reargaurd. That being said ...talent will take this guy to whatever level he chooses to put the effort into getting to.
8) Bergeron - slipped to the 2nd round last year...so what. When you make a team and you can be productive as an 18 year old you've got to have something going for you. I always think of Luc Robitaille when draft position is used as an argument against a guy's talent. I bet there are some NHL GM's out there now that are cursing their scouting staff for not uncovering this diamond in the rough.
9) Kostitsyn - talent upon talent for this guy and he's a winner to boot. Before anybody says "what has this guy done to be on this list" look at the record of the teams he's played on. He won a boatload of medals from tournies in the last couple of years. The only thing that kept him out of the top draft positions was a question about his epilepsy (which turned out to not be epilepsy). Now under control with medication, this guy is going to surprise a lot of doubters.
10) Parise - nothing better could've happened for Parise's career more than Martin St.Louis winning the scoring title. Here's another little man that now just won't be disregarded because of his size. Bloodlines don't mean everything but it does mean that you grew up in an environment that showed you what it takes to be an NHL'er. Again there are going to be some people out there that are going to kick them self for passing on this mighty mite in the draft. Captain Lou has shown again that he is the most astoot GM in the league by trading up for this kid.

Now that I'm done let the criticizing begin........
 
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Crosbyfan

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EJG123 said:
I'll put my top 10 and put some reasons with it so you can see my justification before you trash my selections.

1) Ovechkin - A ton of hype, and where there's smoke, there's fire. He's had too many peopl watching him closely for so long that they all can't be wrong.
2) Malkin - see explanation for Ovechkin. These two will be compared to each other for years to come....for the sake of the Pittsburgh fans I hope they don't become the Payton Manning - Ryan Leaf story of hockey ;-)
3) Zherdev - flat out best OFFENSIVE talent of the 2003 draft (so far). With a training camp & a full season...who knows where he could have finished in scoring. Towards the end of the seaon he was really starting to click with his teammates.
4) Stall - great stats to start the season and then tailed off a bit...still going to be a great one. I really see a long succesful career available to him here. Carolina fans would love to see him become the next Ron Francis. A lot of luck needed to put together a career like that but this guy has the talent and attitude.
5) Fleury - loads of talent on a bad team....but this guy will turn this team around when he gets some of the help needed. 3 -4 years this team is going to be dangerous and Fleury is going to be the rock in net that they need.
6) Horton - Todd Bertuzzi in the making. Power forwards take time to develop but he has already shown he is on that path. An injury slowed his development in his rookie season but so what......Florida fans will be blown away when this kid "fills out a bit". Keenan would be shot if he trades him.
7) Phaneuf - Dmen take as long as power forwards to develop. The NHL game is so much faster and it takes a lot to learn how to handle that as opposed to juniors. Phaneuf will be no different and Calgary has a boatload of talent at reargaurd. That being said ...talent will take this guy to whatever level he chooses to put the effort into getting to.
8) Bergeron - slipped to the 2nd round last year...so what. When you make a team and you can be productive as an 18 year old you've got to have something going for you. I always think of Luc Robitaille when draft position is used as an argument against a guy's talent. I bet there are some NHL GM's out there now that are cursing their scouting staff for not uncovering this diamond in the rough.
9) Kostitsyn - talent upon talent for this guy and he's a winner to boot. Before anybody says "what has this guy done to be on this list" look at the record of the teams he's played on. He won a boatload of medals from tournies in the last couple of years. The only thing that kept him out of the top draft positions was a question about his epilepsy (which turned out to not be epilepsy). Now under control with medication, this guy is going to surprise a lot of doubters.
10) Parise - nothing better could've happened for Parise's career more than Martin St.Louis winning the scoring title. Here's another little man that now just won't be disregarded because of his size. Bloodlines don't mean everything but it does mean that you grew up in an environment that showed you what it takes to be an NHL'er. Again there are going to be some people out there that are going to kick them self for passing on this mighty mite in the draft. Captain Lou has shown again that he is the most astoot GM in the league by trading up for this kid.

Now that I'm done let the criticizing begin........

Good post overall but did Bergeron slip to the second round? I got him as leaping up to the second round. Was he ever ranked in the first round prior to the draft?
 

EJG123

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Crosbyfan said:
Good post overall but did Bergeron slip to the second round? I got him as leaping up to the second round. Was he ever ranked in the first round prior to the draft?
I guess what I mean by this was that he slipped past all the scouts/GM's who make the decisions. From what I've seen so far I don't know how that could've happened.
***as an aside*** There is no homer picks in this bunch. I'm a Canucklehead fan.
 

Vagrant

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1. Ovechkin
2. Fleury
3. Staal
4. Zherdev
5. Malkin
6. Horton
7. Phaneuf
8. Michalek
9. Bergeron
10. Suter

A few points:

Newer usually means better when we're talking about prospects. People get excited about players in their draft year, and when the next year comes along people usually tend to forget all about them. The fact of the matter is that the 2004 draft wasn't nearly as deep in talent as was the 2003 draft. Barker wouldn't have been a Top 10 selection in 2003. Phaneuf and Suter for sure were better in their draft years. Also, this is why people are ranking Malkin ahead of Staal and Fleury. Malkin is a considerable amount of development behind both Staal and Fleury, and yet people still place him at the top of their list due to the fact that he's more of a wildcard than are Staal and Fleury. Staal has played a full season at the NHL level and has proven that he's probably going to be at the very least a 60-70 point a year player. Fleury came into Pittsburgh last season and played fantastic hockey for a goaltender as young as he was, and made a name for himself as one of the top up and coming goaltenders in the entire league. Next season, Malkin will probably still be playing in Russia and there will be a considerable amount of development ahead of him if he hopes to crack the NHL even after this upcoming season. It's just the fact that Malkin is newer, and therefore more attractive to the prospect obsessed fans. Mark my words, by next season if we are to do a Top 10 with all the new prospects of 2003,2004, and 2005, Malkin would be around 6-7 on a lot of lists. Why? Because he more than likely won't play in the NHL next season and the bulk of fans will have passed him over for players they are more familiar with. It's a cycle. Everybody remember Chistov and Svitov? How about Chuck Kobasew? How about Jason Spezza and Stephen Weiss? This is the same principal behind Milan Michalek not cracking a great deal of the lists. He made the NHL on a fairly strong Sharks team, but had injury trouble and people forgot he even existed. Therefore we see names like Tomas Vanek, simply because the fans don't know enough bad things about him to see how his upside could be less than a guy like Michalek, who they have seen to have injury trouble.
 

Seachd

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My opinion:

1) Alexander Ovechkin
2) Evgeni Malkin
3) Marc-Andre Fleury
4) Nikolai Zherdev
5) Eric Staal
6) Nathan Horton
7) Dion Phaneuf
8) Cam Barker
9) Milan Michalek
10) Ryan Suter
 
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