Player Discussion Tomas Plekanec - Guess who's back, back again? Turtleneck's back, tell a friend! Edition

[417]

I disagree. His vision and playing making skill are not as good as they once were but he still got some game.

His value is in his defensive ability...he's virtually a non-factor offensively. He's got poor vision and anticipation for where his line mates are going to be and too often has tunnel vision when he has the puck and takes the easiest option every time. Zero creativity.

His performance with the Leafs in the playoffs proved that. One of the best coached in the world relied on him heavy against the Bruins.

Tomas Plekanec finished 10th among Leafs forwards in TOI/g in the playoffs...that's behind Matthews, Hyman, Marleau, Marner, Brown, Nylander, Kadri (who was suspended 3 games), Bozak & JVR.

Is that what you mean by Babcock relying on him "heavy"?

I read a stat a few weeks ago that for every 10 offensive possessions Plekanec had, he turned the puck over 4 times...he was basically a turn over machine with the puck during the playoffs with the Leafs.

Plekanec's role increased because Kadri got suspended and he did well, scored a couple of important goals which everyone remembers but he wasn't the dominant force you and others often claim he was.

There is still some value with Pleky. I think the Pens would be a perfect fit as their #3C. Or the Oilers.

I agree there is still some value...but the Pens have Brassard as their #3C...and their #4C, Riley Sheahan, is just as good if not better in the exact same role as Plekanec, except they use him situationally.

Why would they downgrade that for Plekanec?

 

[Peanut]

Holy crap Belial just called Drouin atrocious to defend the black hole that is Pleks wow

Heres the stats for ya @417

 

[417]

Holy crap Belial just called Drouin atrocious to defend the black hole that is Pleks wow

Heres the stats for ya @417

That's what I was referring too...

He wasn't nearly as good as alot of people think he was...

And the stats you just provided highlight a big reason why Plekanec is so poor offensively, he's constantly turning the puck over...

Imagine having a guy who is so poor in possession offensively, yet hes one of your most used players at ES?

 

[Belial]

#1 this thread is about Tomas Plekanec...not Jonathan Drouin or Alex Galchenyuk

#2. You may have explained yourself, but I don't recall "somewhat" agreeing with you...uni-dimensional defensive players, should not lead your team in ES icetime, unless they can contribute at both ends like say...Sean Couturier for example.

Couturier led the Flyers in Dzone starts with 56.4% (Plekanec was at 59%), he was also last among regular forwards in Ozone starts with 43.6% (Plekanec was also at 41%)...but he also finished with 31 goals & 76pts.

Which pretty much blows your theory that heavy Dzone start players can't also produce, right out of the water.

How is this relevant? It depends on the team !And I told you 100 times already! The reason Plekanec got so many minutes it's cuz he was reliable, playing Drouin or whoever instead of Plekanec would've been even worse ffs! Do you understand?

I feel like I'm talking with a wall!

Holy crap Belial just called Drouin atrocious to defend the black hole that is Pleks wow

Heres the stats for ya @417

Learn to read before you start to generate posts.

 

[417]

How is this relevant? It depends on the team !And I told you 100 times already! The reason Plekanec got so many minutes it's cuz he was reliable, playing Drouin or whoever instead of Plekanec would've been even worse ffs! Do you understand?

Yes because playing Drouin and Galchenyuk (who didn't play C btw - not sure why you're mentioning him) would of made the team finish in the bottom 3 of the league.

Remind me of where the Habs were with Plekanec last year again?

I feel like I'm talking with a wall

Maybe you shouldn't talk to walls

 

[Belial]

Yes because playing Drouin and Galchenyuk (who didn't play C btw - not sure why you're mentioning him) would of made the team finish in the bottom 3 of the league.

Remind me of where the Habs were with Plekanec last year again?

Maybe you should learn to read also? Where did I mention Golden Boy in that post?

Maybe you shouldn't talk to walls

Maybe...

 

[417]

Maybe you should learn to read also? Where did I mention Golden Boy in that post?

You mentioned him earlier...

Regardless, you're ignoring the point..so I'll re-frame it for you.

Playing Plekanec the way they did didn't prevent them from being worse, they were a bad team with Plekanec, they were a bad team without Plekanec.

But oddly enough, Drouin's production increased and was much more steady AFTER Plekanec was traded, not to mention his faceoff % went up and his overall play was much better.

But I'm sure that's purely coincidental..

 

[Belial]

You mentioned him earlier...

Regardless, you're ignoring the point..so I'll re-frame it for you.

Playing Plekanec the way they did didn't prevent them from being worse, they were a bad team with Plekanec, they were a bad team without Plekanec.

But oddly enough, Drouin's production increased and was much more steady AFTER Plekanec was traded, not to mention his faceoff % went up and his overall play was much better.

But I'm sure that's purely coincidental..

Jesus Christ...

Are you even hearing yourself?

Plekanec was eating a ton of heavy minutes allowing all those other skilled guys to benefit from offensive zone starts and easier matchups but here you are claiming Plekanec was somehow a nuisance! I respect you as a poster but get a clue on this matter!

 

[OldCraig71]

I hope that Tomas Plekanec is our number one center this year just for the hell of it.

 

[417]

Jesus Christ...

Are you even hearing yourself?

Plekanec was eating a ton of heavy minutes allowing all those other skilled guys to benefit from offensive zone starts and easier matchups but here you are claiming Plekanec was somehow a nuisance! I respect you as a poster but get a clue on this matter!

He was a nuisance not because of his sheer presence on the team...

He was a nuisance because he played so much...that's what you don't understand.

You really think it's a coincidence that some players, more specifically Drouin and DLR, both produced more, did better in the faceoff circle, and generally played better after Plekanec was traded and icetime opened up?

You want to bury your head in the sand? That's fine.

Just don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about because I refuse to do the same.

The only issue I've got with Plekanec is his icetime, he's not a player who should be playing so much, this bull**** about needing him to play so we can shelter other player is just that, bull****.

Using that strategy didnt help the team in any capcity last year.

Even Brendan Gallagher, a player who played with Plekanec most of the year, saw his goal production rise when paired with Drouin and Byron post trade deadline.

We don't agree on this matter...but again, please don't tell me I don't have a clue.

 

[Belial]

He was a nuisance not because of his sheer presence on the team...

He was a nuisance because he played so much...that's what you don't understand.

You really think it's a coincidence that some players, more specifically Drouin and DLR, both produced more, did better in the faceoff circle, and generally played better after Plekanec was traded and icetime opened up?

You want to bury your head in the sand? That's fine.

Let's just forget it's Plekanec, ok?

How what you're saying makes any logic?

How more heavy minutes brings more offense? This is just illogical!

Just don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about because I refuse to do the same.

The only issue I've got with Plekanec is his icetime, he's not a player who should be playing so much, this bull**** about needing him to play so we can shelter other player is just that, bull****.

Using that strategy didnt help the team in any capcity last year.

Even Brendan Gallagher, a player who played with Plekanec most of the year, saw his goal production rise when paired with Drouin and Byron post trade deadline.

We don't agree on this matter...but again, please don't tell me I don't have a clue.

Of course, Gallagher's production went up because he was used in a more offensive situation and was getting a lot more offensive starts...

 

[417]

Let's just forget it's Plekanec, ok?

Why would I do that?

This thread is about Plekanec, why do you want me to forget that it's him?

How what you're saying makes any logic?

How more heavy minutes brings more offense? This is just illogical!

Both Drouin & DLR started playing more "heavy minutes" AFTER Plekanec was traded...

They produced MORE offense then they did when they were "sheltered".

There's nothing illogical about that...

It certainly wasn't DLR's line that had the lion share of Dzone faceoffs, nor Logan Shaw's or Mike McCarron's...so.....

Of course, Gallagher's production went up because he was used in a more offensive situation and was getting a lot more offensive starts...

You really overestimate the impact of zone starts...as i've explained to you SEVERAL times, zone starts are just about zone STARTS. They are not indicative of what happens AFTER the faceoff, it just captures WHERE players start their shifts. There are a ton of other events that happen after a shifts starts that impacts the validity of this "advanced stats".

I mean, does an offensive zone start matter, if the player starting in the ozone loses the faceoff??? I mean, at that point, the player might be int he ozone, but he doesn't have the puck, which means he's chasing/defending.

Either way, you have stats to back this up or are you just talking out of your ***?

Can you prove that Gallagher had more offensive zone starts after Plekanec was traded?

Because I know that after Plekanec was traded, Drouin (and his line mates - Gallagher/Byron) took over a lot of the defensive responsibility that Plekanec's line had.

So I smell bull**** on this statement...but i'll give you the opportunity to back it up, if you can.

Gallagher's production went up because he played a center who could actually get him the puck

 

[Belial]

Why would I do that?

This thread is about Plekanec, why do you want me to forget that it's him?

It's obvious! You're clearly biased when it comes to Plekanec.

Both Drouin & DLR started playing more "heavy minutes" AFTER Plekanec was traded...

They produced MORE offense then they did when they were "sheltered".

There's nothing illogical about that...

It certainly wasn't DLR's line that had the lion share of Dzone faceoffs, nor Logan Shaw's or Mike McCarron's...so.....

Yes, everything is illogical in your argument!

You can keep thinking that Drouin started to produce more when he got more D zone starts as long as you want but there's no logic in what you're saying.

How about he just got better during the whole season? Seems more plausible don't you think?

You really overestimate the impact of zone starts...as i've explained to you SEVERAL times, zone starts are just about zone STARTS. They are not indicative of what happens AFTER the faceoff, it just captures WHERE players start their shifts. There are a ton of other events that happen after a shifts starts that impacts the validity of this "advanced stats".

I mean, does an offensive zone start matter, if the player starting in the ozone loses the faceoff??? I mean, at that point, the player might be int he ozone, but he doesn't have the puck, which means he's chasing/defending.

Either way, you have stats to back this up or are you just talking out of your ***?

Can you prove that Gallagher had more offensive zone starts after Plekanec was traded?

Because I know that after Plekanec was traded, Drouin (and his line mates - Gallagher/Byron) took over a lot of the defensive responsibility that Plekanec's line had.

So I smell bull**** on this statement...but i'll give you the opportunity to back it up, if you can.

Gallagher's production went up because he played a center who could actually get him the puck

I know how zone starts work, my friend!

But there is no randomness in the personnel chosen to take those zone starts !

Coaches play the %!

And yes Gallagher's offensive zone starts went up when he got bumped to the Drouin line, once again it's just logical... What are we even arguing here ffs?

Plekanec was used in a defensive role! When Galagher played with him he was playing a defensive role! Logic 101!

When he got to play with Drouin he got more offensive zone starts and less defensive responsibilities, his production got better and his GA got higher...

 

[Peanut]

Glad to see the black hole Pleks is back, drying up offence wherever he goes lol maybe he can stop turning over the puck this year.

 

[417]

It's obvious! You're clearly biased when it comes to Plekanec.

I've never been disparaging towards Plekanec...as i've told you 10000 times.

My issue is with his usage, not him.

It's not his fault his coach used him the way he did. I have nothing but respect for the career he's had with the Habs. He's an example of follow for many young kids in the AHL.

Yes, everything is illogical in your argument!

You can keep thinking that Drouin started to produce more when he got more D zone starts as long as you want but there's no logic in what you're saying.

How about he just got better during the whole season? Seems more plausible don't you think?

That's cool...but that's not what i'm saying.

That's what YOU understood but I can't help you comprehend what you read, you're on your own for that.

I think Drouin started to produce more for many reasons, one of them includes the fact he started playing more, he wasn't sheltered to JUST taking faceoffs in the offensive zone. He was used all over the ice.

Players need to play, regardless of where they start in an offensive zone, the more they play, the better they typically play (especially for talented players).

So again, yes I do think he got better towards the end of the year because of natural progression but ALSO because he got more icetime/responsibilities.

I know how zone starts work, my friend!

I don't think that you do...I think you extrapolate quite a bit the conclusions from zone starts.

I'm not sure if you're doing this intentionally or if like I said, you just don't understand what zone starts are meant to be about.

But there is no randomness in the personnel chosen to take those zone starts !

Coaches play the %!

And yes Gallagher's offensive zone starts went up when he got bumped to the Drouin line, once again it's just logical... What are we even arguing here ffs?

I'm not talking to you about the personnel chosen in zone starts, i'm talking to you about what zone starts mean and how they are meant to be applied vs how you apply them.

As for Gallagher...prove it. You got numbers?

Because as I said earlier, after Plekanec was traded, Drouin started taking a lot more defensive zone draws and he did so with Byron & Gallagher.

Julien finally started playing strength vs strength. He finally started realizing that the best way to nullify the oppositions best lines, was by making them work defensively.

Plekanec was used in a defensive role! When Galagher played with him he was playing a defensive role! Logic 101!

When he got to play with Drouin he got more offensive zone starts and less defensive responsibilities, his production got better and his GA got higher...

Is this your favorite buzzword or something? Just because you continue to use that word, doesn't mean you possess it.

As for the bolded...again, prove it. Where are the numbers???

Again, if Gallagher's defensive responsibilities ceased after Plekanec was traded because he started playing with Drouin...

Then who got the defensive assignments? DLR? Shaw? McCarron??

 

[417]

There are PLENTY of players throughout the NHL who get heavy defensive zone starts AND still produce points...

Sorry @Belial ...not only is zone starts a dubious stat to use on its own, you've got a terrible interpretation of what they do mean, if anything.

Plekanec's lack of production has very little to do with his zone starts and almost everything to do with his talent level at this stage of his career.

Let's compare Tomas Plekanec to one of his peers...Jay Beagle

Jay Beagle

Ozone starts: 25.2%
Dzone starts: 74.8%
Points: 22pts in 79 games

Tomas Plekanec

Ozone starts: 41%
Dzone starts: 59%
Points: 26pts in 77 games

Up until this point...the comparison is pretty even, except Beagle zone start has even a crazier difference than Plekanec. Jay Beagle essentially started 3/4's of ALL his shifts in the defensive zone.

Makes sense though, he's purely a defensive player - like Plekanec and both of their point totals reflect that.

Now here's the major difference

Jay Beagle

TOI/60: 12:27
TOI at even strength: 9:54

Tomas Plekanec

TOI/60: 16:18
TOI at even strength: 13:47 (was even higher when he was with the Habs, it only went down after he was traded to the Leafs).

As i've told you, continuously...the problem is NOT Plekanec, the problem is his USAGE.

This is way too much icetime for a purely defensive player...literally no other team uses any of their uni-dimensional defensive players as much as the Habs have with Plekanec. This was just one example, I could repeat this excercise with many players and the conclusions would all be the same

 

[Belial]

There are PLENTY of players throughout the NHL who get heavy defensive zone starts AND still produce points...

Sorry @Belial ...not only is zone starts a dubious stat to use on its own, you've got a terrible interpretation of what they do mean, if anything.

Plekanec's lack of production has very little to do with his zone starts and almost everything to do with his talent level at this stage of his career.

Fine man. I feel like we've debated this enough.

 

[417]

Fine man. I feel like we've debated this enough.

I amended the rest of that post with more information...feel free to breeze through it.

 

[Belial]

ay Beagle

I amended the rest of that post with more information...feel free to breeze through it.

Again, I have no clue why you always go after Plekanec then? Go after Julien or something...

 

[417]

Again, I have no clue why you always go after Plekanec then? Go after Julien or something...

I have criticized Julien for it...but you keep making it about me hating Plekanec.

I'm presenting his usage as Julien has applied it.

I'm not "going after him"...that's just the way you filter it.

But is that really all you have to say about the Jay Beagle comparison??? Do you finally understand my point?

 

[Habs Halifax]

I have criticized Julien for it...but you keep making it about me hating Plekanec.

I'm presenting his usage as Julien has applied it.

I'm not "going after him"...that's just the way you filter it.

But is that really all you have to say about the Jay Beagle comparison??? Do you finally understand my point?

Curious, show us your line-up with Patch in it and where you put Pleky? 4th line center?

 

[417]

Curious, show us your line-up with Patch in it and where you put Pleky? 4th line center?

Pacioretty-Drouin-Gallagher
Domi-Danault-Lehkonen
Hudon-DLR-Armia
Deslauriers-Plekanec/Peca-McCarron/Scherbak

This of course assumes Byron/Shaw aren't ready to start the year. That's probably what i'd have it as, but a lot of the players, especially at wing are interchangeable.

But I have Plekanec competing for the 4th line center job with Peca/McCarron.

I think he should start the year as the #4C but gradually be phased out by Peca and/or McCarron by the end of the year.

I have Drouin, Danault & DLR all firmly ahead at center in my depth chart.

Plekanec should have a veteran/mentorship role this year...

 

[Belial]

I have criticized Julien for it...but you keep making it about me hating Plekanec.

I'm presenting his usage as Julien has applied it.

I'm not "going after him"...that's just the way you filter it.

But is that really all you have to say about the Jay Beagle comparison??? Do you finally understand my point?

I mean, I do understand your point and I did understand your point the whole time but it's you who keeps ignoring my point and the reality that we live in...
You just can't compare the two teams and situations...

The reason Julien's overusing Plekanec is cuz Chucky sucks, Druin sucks...

I told you the coach wants to win, I mean he's paid to win...

This goes to Bergevin at the end of the day.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Pacioretty-Drouin-Gallagher
Domi-Danault-Lehkonen
Hudon-DLR-Armia
Deslauriers-Plekanec/Peca-McCarron/Scherbak

This of course assumes Byron/Shaw aren't ready to start the year. That's probably what i'd have it as, but a lot of the players, especially at wing are interchangeable.

But I have Plekanec competing for the 4th line center job with Peca/McCarron.

I think he should start the year as the #4C but gradually be phased out by Peca and/or McCarron by the end of the year.

I have Drouin, Danault & DLR all firmly ahead at center in my depth chart.

Plekanec should have a veteran/mentorship role this year...

I will be very interested to see how Julien uses Pleky. Personally, I think he puts Gallagher with him again. We will see

 

[417]

I mean, I do understand your point and I did understand your point the whole time but it's you who keeps ignoring my point and the reality that we live in...

Yet you kept calling my posts "illogical"...so which is it??

Kinda hard to keep up

You just can't compare the two teams and situations...

I didn't compare teams...I compared players, Plekanec vs Beagle.

And it's an appropriate comparison given they fill the exact same role for their respective teams, handling defensive situations, the only difference is the Capitals don't use Beagle at the expense of their more offensively inclined centers (Backstrom, Kuznetsov & Eller).

The reason Julien's overusing Plekanec is cuz Chucky sucks, Druin sucks...

I told you the coach wants to win, I mean he's paid to win...

This goes to Bergevin at the end of the day.

He wasn't winning using this strategy...it was a poor strategy with zero chance for succeeding.

No team employs a strategy of using uni-dimensional defensive players to shut down top lines. It's complete madness.

These types of players, players like Plekanec...the Jay Beagle's or Kyle Brodziak's or Mark Letestu's or Carl Soderberg's or Martin Hanzal's or Matt Hendrick's, etc...

Are situational players. They are used for dzone draws, but UNLIKE Plekanec, they aren't shadowing other teams top lines, because that would increase their ES TOI and reduce their better players TOI as a result of it.

And MOST coaches, in this day and age, know that the best way to keep pucks out of your own net, is to play in the other teams zone and put pucks in THEIR net.