Player Discussion Tom Wilson, NHL All-Star (Part 3)

[txpd]

Seems like a bit of an awkward one for the league as I get that it's a bad hit, but it wasn't really a board, it wasn't a charge, it wasn't really a hit that specifically targeted the head....

It didn't really fit in any box, so it once again highlights that the league is slow, ineffective and reactive when it comes to this stuff.

I watch the hit and I'm not going to sit here and defend it, but the justification from the league just reads like them saying "this didn't technically break the rules but we don't like it so here's some punishment"

The parts that kills me is that they dont say they dont like the hit. They say that this kind of hit is common as pointed out by the Caps. What they dont like is that Wilson made the hit. That smacks directly of Wilson having to play by different rules than the other players. He followed the rules

 

[Eirikrautha]

He drove his head into the glass with this hands. Looked reckless to me. It was unnecessary.

How many times does one need to be suspended before the realize they need to change what they are doing?

Now, it’s the team’s problem. You may not like it, but it is what it is. We can’t have a player on this team, that for reasons totally within his control, consistently at risk of suspension. The team does not decide who gets suspended, the league does.

You either address the issue, or it persists. What any of us think is or isn’t a penalty is irrelevant.

That is stupid. First, a cop might have the power to arrest you, but the LAW determines whether the arrest is legitimate. The league may be able to suspend players, but the RULES determine whether the suspension is warranted. So you can't handwave the definition of what is and isn't a penalty, which is what all of the folks attacking Willy seem to be doing (because they know that they don't have a leg to stand on there. They are operating on "feelings", which, despite the modern world's fascination with them, are a terrible way to make good decisions).

Second, this borders on abusive logic. Sometimes you are at fault for the things that happen to you (a majority of time, IMO), but sometimes you aren't. So you should accept those things that aren't your fault, because other things are? No. When you are not at fault, the response is not "deal with it." Your logic seems to be that he doesn't control what the league calls a suspendable penalty, so he needs to stop doing things that the league can define as a penalty. And you can't see that this is contradictory?

The team does need to do something. It needs to scream to high heaven about the double-standard. It needs to back Wilson fully. It needs to make it clear that they are fine with the way that Wilson plays, and that they feel that suspensions warranted by the rules are fine, but making up infractions that don't exist is not appropriate and will not be condoned by the team or its management. That's the appropriate response when one of your players is being wronged just to avoid bad PR. Give them more bad PR than they would have gotten if they had done the right thing...

 

[trick9]

I sort of understand why Wilson gets frustrated at times. The DoPS aren't the only ones that are giving him the special treatment, the refs are too. And no not even talking about penalties he commits but the ones that are committed on him. He gets mugged in basically almost every game without a call. Refs see 43 going down and simply decide to ignore it. Hell this season they don't even call high-sticking penalties committed on him.

 

[txpd]

Lets examine this. Had Wilson done this I would get the 7 games. Its text book.

 

[pman25]

So we're fine with opposing players crumpling to the ice and playing hurt just to get Tom Wilson thrown out of games, then?

Who played hurt? Like it’s not up for debate that Tom Wilson hurts people and brings the pain. Sometimes legally sometimes illegally, but I don’t think anyone is crumpling to the ice as an act. Come on man

 

[Eirikrautha]

Who played hurt? Like it’s not up for debate that Tom Wilson hurts people and brings the pain. Sometimes legally sometimes illegally, but I don’t think anyone is crumpling to the ice as an act. Come on man

So you're new to hockey, huh?

 

[g00n]

Who played hurt? Like it’s not up for debate that Tom Wilson hurts people and brings the pain. Sometimes legally sometimes illegally, but I don’t think anyone is crumpling to the ice as an act. Come on man

I didn't say it happened before on one of these Wilson suspensions. I'm saying this sets a precedent.

The NHL has shown it's willing to suspend for an otherwise legal hit based entirely on 1) an apparent injury 2) Tom Wilson being involved.

So what's stopping opponents from dropping to the ice like they're dead, a la soccer, until Wilson gets a misconduct? Or maybe they do the James Brown and get carried to the locker room, only to appear later. Or even just sit out the game and wait for the DoPS to suspend Wilson the next day.

How bad do you think that would be in a playoff series, for example?

 

[Empty Goal Net]

That is stupid. First, a cop might have the power to arrest you, but the LAW determines whether the arrest is legitimate. The league may be able to suspend players, but the RULES determine whether the suspension is warranted. So you can't handwave the definition of what is and isn't a penalty, which is what all of the folks attacking Willy seem to be doing (because they know that they don't have a leg to stand on there. They are operating on "feelings", which, despite the modern world's fascination with them, are a terrible way to make good decisions).

Second, this borders on abusive logic. Sometimes you are at fault for the things that happen to you (a majority of time, IMO), but sometimes you aren't. So you should accept those things that aren't your fault, because other things are? No. When you are not at fault, the response is not "deal with it." Your logic seems to be that he doesn't control what the league calls a suspendable penalty, so he needs to stop doing things that the league can define as a penalty. And you can't see that this is contradictory?

The team does need to do something. It needs to scream to high heaven about the double-standard. It needs to back Wilson fully. It needs to make it clear that they are fine with the way that Wilson plays, and that they feel that suspensions warranted by the rules are fine, but making up infractions that don't exist is not appropriate and will not be condoned by the team or its management. That's the appropriate response when one of your players is being wronged just to avoid bad PR. Give them more bad PR than they would have gotten if they had done the right thing...

All of the above. Based on what players have said and been quoted as saying over the years, they openly acknowledge differences in how games are ref'd and how individual refs tend to call games, but what they always ask for is consistency in calls during a game. If my teammate does x and gets a minor for doing so, then you better call a minor on my opponent if he does x. When the folks in the league offices get 24 hours or more to review a play, they have even more of an opportunity to ensure consistency in their decisions. Developing new rules/interpretations on the fly doesn't seem to be a strong move toward consistency.

Just like we don't know what's been said in Ovie's contract negotiations, we don't have a firm handle on everything that the Caps and Broons and game officials communicated to the league/DOPES. The DC area isn't exactly a hotbed for hockey media, and media folks here don't have the connections to league officials that TSN- and McKenzie-types have. I'm all for "bad PR" in the form of calling out DOPES for their capriciousness, but that has to come from media types and not the Caps organization.

The appeal should feature video of similar plays that did not result in suspension, especially where the hit player changed his position at the last moment and thus was at greater risk of injury.

 

[pman25]

So you're new to hockey, huh?

Of all the Tom Wilson hits where he hurts people, those were real. They happened. Lubo, Carlo, Aston Reese, Sundqvist, Zadorov. They weren’t fake. Argue the legality of those hits all ya want, but they aren’t playing around. Are you suggesting that they were embellished?

 

[txpd]

Lets talk about this one.

 

[pman25]

I didn't say it happened before on one of these Wilson suspensions. I'm saying this sets a precedent.

The NHL has shown it's willing to suspend for an otherwise legal hit based entirely on 1) an apparent injury 2) Tom Wilson being involved.

So what's stopping opponents from dropping to the ice like they're dead, a la soccer, until Wilson gets a misconduct? Or maybe they do the James Brown and get carried to the locker room, only to appear later. Or even just sit out the game and wait for the DoPS to suspend Wilson the next day.

How bad do you think that would be in a playoff series, for example?

This seems a little ridiculous, take off the tinfoil hat. No ones gonna put in that much effort. I don’t see this becoming an issue

 

[Eirikrautha]

Of all the Tom Wilson hits where he hurts people, those were real. They happened. Lubo, Carlo, Aston Reese, Sundqvist, Zadorov. They weren’t fake. Argue the legality of those hits all ya want, but they aren’t playing around. Are you suggesting that they were embellished?

No, I'm arguing that Wilson has gotten penalties where the player he hits lays on the ice for a while and then is back playing the next shift. Those haven't resulted in a suspension... yet. I'm also arguing that people have gotten hurt from perfectly legal checks that haven't been called penalties (because they haven't been illegal) and haven't resulted in suspensions. And I'm arguing that players embellish penalties every single game. I don't think any of those are arguable. So your idea that players won't embellish to get Tom called is... laughable... at best.

 

[g00n]

This seems a little ridiculous, take off the tinfoil hat. No ones gonna put in that much effort. I don’t see this becoming an issue

I disagree. Do you remember the days when players would dig in their noses to get some blood for a 5 min major? Or sell high sticks that don't connect with a head snap? Diving/embellishment was introduced as a penalty for a reason.

Any coach facing the Caps in the playoffs has to consider this option now. If you can sacrifice some 4th line plugger for 1/2 the game after a TW hit, and have him lay there on the ice for a while with an undisclosed "upper body injury" while the media howls, you can maybe remove TW from the series.

They'd be fools not to.

 

[pman25]

Lets talk about this one.

I understand the impulse, but you’re falling into a trap. There’s no winning here. Bad hits happen, injuries happen, to our players and other players. There will be no consistency ever on punishment or suspensions or penalties. With or without Tom Wilson, this is the game.

That’s my general attitude about it. I think some hits are fine and others not so much. I’ve made it known that I think the Tom Wilson hit is bad, but what are we gonna do about it? Some other player will throw that same hit with the same result this season or next season and what then? I don’t know. The only thing I know is that this game hurts people. It’s a shame, you don’t like to see it, but it’s the way it is.

 

[pman25]

I disagree. Do you remember the days when players would dig in their noses to get some blood for a 5 min major? Or sell high sticks that don't connect with a head snap? Diving/embellishment was introduced as a penalty for a reason.

Any coach facing the Caps in the playoffs has to consider this option now. If you can sacrifice some 4th line plugger for 1/2 the game after a TW hit, and have him lay there on the ice for a while with an undisclosed "upper body injury" while the media howls, you can maybe remove TW from the series.

They'd be fools not to.

I’d say embellishment will continue to happen as it always does, perhaps Tom Wilson won’t get the benefit of the doubt, but that already was kinda the case. I don’t think someone faking an injury will lead to a suspension, that is a lot of effort. But yeah they might embellish a hit for a minor penalty, that’s not anything new though

 

[zappa4ever]

Serious Rule Proposal:
Since there's the tech out there to monitor every player's speed live in-game, maybe there should be a:

- No hitting above 15mph rule

or whatever speed is determined as 'safe'/legal
since F = ma, if they outlaw hits above 'x' mph this will limit Force of impact, esp. with the big boys like Willy

Players know when they're flying or not and likely can assess their speeds fairly closely
Obv. would need some tweaking for various situations (puck races e.g.)

 

[Jags]

He didnt stride. He was in a glide. He didnt launch upward. He hit a player already against the boards rather than dangerously away from the boards. His elbows, forearms and stick were tucked down. He didnt hit from behind. He didnt leave his skates.

But he targeted the head. You're absolutely right about most of the rest of it.

And before you guys pile on me, YES, I also hate when discipline like this is distilled down to frame-by-frame slo-mo. I hate when they (ALWAYS!) entirely disregard the fact that the "victim" is also a hockey player that should know that the world isn't going to stop while he digs the puck out of his skates. In this case, Carlo was less "defenseless" than he was momentarily stupid.

But Wilson targets the head. Kind of a lot. Hasn't had a suspension in a while and has absolutely been better over that stretch, but his last two (now three) suspensions were all head hits that didn't really need to be. He goes for the knockout. He's reckless, at least occasionally.

And we live in a CTE world now. You can't take a serious look at what CTE does to people and not see the message that the league is trying to send to Wilson. They even say so in the DOPS video; that they acknowledge that there was absolutely a way for this hit to have been clean. If he goes through the shoulder or hip, this isn't even a discussion and he would have been in better position to actually play the puck (God forbid). But Wilson targeted the head.

He still just needs to make that one little adjustment and he'd be golden. Let's also not pretend that this is standard offensive procedure...

The puck is in Carlo's skates and Wilson's eyes are on Carlo's ear. Let's be real. He's not nearly as interested in the puck in that moment as he is curious about what the inside of Carlo's head looks like.

Tommy gets fired up. We love that about him. But he gets carried away sometimes. He just needs to stop targeting the head.

 

[Jags]

you cannot compare what Wilson can do to anyone else. His size isn’t the issue. It’s his size AND speed.

find me some players that hit the bill. Only one close is Josh Anderson, and he’s not as fast or as offensively talented as Wilson.

Ovechkin fits that bill, and he throws his weight around plenty. Maybe he gets a little star treatment, but he mostly avoids penalties and suspensions because he checks cleanly. Wilson has a tendency to go high and target the head, hence the extra attention he gets from the league.

And you're absolutely right that his status as a total freak of nature (size/strength/speed/skill) puts a bigger target on his back. All the more reason to adjust his behavior accordingly.

 

[hb12xchamps]

Given the ridiculous statement the NHL DoPs put out, shouldn’t the NHLPA be upset that Tom received 7 games? Seems this sets a dangerous precedent for the DoPs in the future. “I don’t like the way this guy plays, here’s 5 games so he can chill out.”

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

“Targeted the head” is a BS take IMO.


You can’t know intent. Stop pretending like you do.

 

[Jags]

There's a definite pattern to his last 3 suspensions, CCR. It's far less about "knowing intent" than it is just being mildly observant and honest about the obvious patterns. Wilson blows guys up on a regular basis. He gets league attention when his hits result in head injuries.

 

[txpd]

But he targeted the head. You're absolutely right about most of the rest of it.

And before you guys pile on me, YES, I also hate when discipline like this is distilled down to frame-by-frame slo-mo. I hate when they (ALWAYS!) entirely disregard the fact that the "victim" is also a hockey player that should know that the world isn't going to stop while he digs the puck out of his skates. In this case, Carlo was less "defenseless" than he was momentarily stupid.

But Wilson targets the head. Kind of a lot. Hasn't had a suspension in a while and has absolutely been better over that stretch, but his last two (now three) suspensions were all head hits that didn't really need to be. He goes for the knockout. He's reckless, at least occasionally.

And we live in a CTE world now. You can't take a serious look at what CTE does to people and not see the message that the league is trying to send to Wilson. They even say so in the DOPS video; that they acknowledge that there was absolutely a way for this hit to have been clean. If he goes through the shoulder or hip, this isn't even a discussion and he would have been in better position to actually play the puck (God forbid). But Wilson targeted the head.

He still just needs to make that one little adjustment and he'd be golden. Let's also not pretend that this is standard offensive procedure...

The puck is in Carlo's skates and Wilson's eyes are on Carlo's ear. Let's be real. He's not nearly as interested in the puck in that moment as he is curious about what the inside of Carlo's head looks like.

Tommy gets fired up. We love that about him. But he gets carried away sometimes. He just needs to stop targeting the head.

His initial and primary point of contact was not his head. He wouldnt be looking at a body part or the puck either.

 

[Corby78]

Lets examine this. Had Wilson done this I would get the 7 games. Its text book.

Wilson would have been done for the year with another headshot like this.

 

[Corby78]

But he targeted the head. You're absolutely right about most of the rest of it.

And before you guys pile on me, YES, I also hate when discipline like this is distilled down to frame-by-frame slo-mo. I hate when they (ALWAYS!) entirely disregard the fact that the "victim" is also a hockey player that should know that the world isn't going to stop while he digs the puck out of his skates. In this case, Carlo was less "defenseless" than he was momentarily stupid.

But Wilson targets the head. Kind of a lot. Hasn't had a suspension in a while and has absolutely been better over that stretch, but his last two (now three) suspensions were all head hits that didn't really need to be. He goes for the knockout. He's reckless, at least occasionally.

And we live in a CTE world now. You can't take a serious look at what CTE does to people and not see the message that the league is trying to send to Wilson. They even say so in the DOPS video; that they acknowledge that there was absolutely a way for this hit to have been clean. If he goes through the shoulder or hip, this isn't even a discussion and he would have been in better position to actually play the puck (God forbid). But Wilson targeted the head.

He still just needs to make that one little adjustment and he'd be golden. Let's also not pretend that this is standard offensive procedure...

The puck is in Carlo's skates and Wilson's eyes are on Carlo's ear. Let's be real. He's not nearly as interested in the puck in that moment as he is curious about what the inside of Carlo's head looks like.

Tommy gets fired up. We love that about him. But he gets carried away sometimes. He just needs to stop targeting the head.

Good, he is going for the check, that’s how you teach it. Start looking at the puck now you don’t know what your hitting. Dumb argument, since looking at the player is what you should do here.

 

[Misery74]

No, I'm arguing that Wilson has gotten penalties where the player he hits lays on the ice for a while and then is back playing the next shift. Those haven't resulted in a suspension... yet. I'm also arguing that people have gotten hurt from perfectly legal checks that haven't been called penalties (because they haven't been illegal) and haven't resulted in suspensions. And I'm arguing that players embellish penalties every single game. I don't think any of those are arguable. So your idea that players won't embellish to get Tom called is... laughable... at best.

Except Carlo went off the ice, went to the hospital, is out today. Tom Wilson didn’t receive a penalty.