Player Discussion Tom Wilson, Part 3

Discussion in 'Washington Capitals' started by Calicaps, Feb 27, 2019.

  1. txpd Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2003
    Messages:
    63,475
    Likes Received:
    9,818
    Trophy Points:
    231
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Occupation:
    Photographer
    Location:
    New Bern, NC
    So, if Carlo isnt injured Wilson is good. You either crosscheck a guy in the face or you dont.
     
  2. twabby Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    7,241
    Likes Received:
    4,840
    Trophy Points:
    156
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Yes, in the same way that punching a person in the head and causing a black eye might not result in you getting arrested at all, but punching a person in the head and causing them to die would likely result in manslaughter and several years in prison.
     
  3. g00n t0m WiLs0n PhAnBoI

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2007
    Messages:
    22,821
    Likes Received:
    5,873
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    schmocation
    THIS IS NOT CRIME. Stop with the terrible analogies.

    So if 2 players fight and one guy gets a concussion, the guy who hit him should get suspended?
     
  4. g00n t0m WiLs0n PhAnBoI

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2007
    Messages:
    22,821
    Likes Received:
    5,873
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    schmocation
    Busy morning but now I have a sec.

    I've already laid out the path for you to follow here. They aren't breadcrumbs they're neon signs. But I'll try again.

    • Hitting causes damage. It causes trauma. That means injuries.
    • So if you're allowing hitting you're allowing injuries from hitting.
    • If you're trying to eliminate injuries then you have to eliminate hitting. Other levels of competition ALREADY DO THIS so it's not a logical fallacy.
    • If you want hitting but you're only trying to reduce injuries, your job is more complicated. You can't just punish based on injury because it's SO unpredictable a situation. The same hit to 2 different people or even the same players, at various times, will produce drastically different results due to fatigue, speed of play, and other factors.

    So there's no way to know when a hit with nearly ANY level of force or speed will injure someone. Which means you must either include broad language that allows referee discretion in judging what's right and wrong, or ban hitting.

    And as we've seen, players get away with the same things Wilson gets penalized and suspended for, all the time. That includes speed, areas of contact, proximity to boards, injury, and all of it.
     
  5. Midnight Judges HFBoards Sponsor Sponsor

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2010
    Messages:
    10,003
    Likes Received:
    5,289
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Nobody is suggesting you can eliminate injuries. So again, your entire chain of logic breaks down based on a straw man argument that you are relying on.
     
  6. g00n t0m WiLs0n PhAnBoI

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2007
    Messages:
    22,821
    Likes Received:
    5,873
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    schmocation
    Did you read the rest? It's part of the logical setup.

    If you're not trying to eliminate injuries then you can't use injuries as a criteria for discipline.

    Stop cherrypicking what I say so you can knock down actual strawmen.
     
  7. Calicaps NFA

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2006
    Messages:
    19,182
    Likes Received:
    9,486
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Female
    Occupation:
    editor
    Location:
    Berserkly
    So is it your contention then that it is not possible for a player to be injured by a legal hit? Or perhaps more accurately, do you believe that injury is the major determining factor in the legality of a hit?
     
  8. Corby78 65 - 10 - 20

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2014
    Messages:
    8,878
    Likes Received:
    4,549
    Trophy Points:
    126
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    Pensacola, Fl
    lol, so your argument is Wilson is suspendable because he is mean, the rest of the players are just playing hockey. And this is backed up because opposing fans don't like him. Brilliant deduction.
     
  9. Corby78 65 - 10 - 20

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2014
    Messages:
    8,878
    Likes Received:
    4,549
    Trophy Points:
    126
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    Pensacola, Fl
    It was your fourth bullet, he probably didn't get that far.
     
    Eirikrautha and g00n like this.
  10. CapitalsCupReality It’s Go Time!!

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2002
    Messages:
    51,994
    Likes Received:
    9,053
    Trophy Points:
    231
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Devil’s Advocate, Caller of BS
    tough to see through all that red interference that hating Tom Wilson causes...
     
    Eirikrautha likes this.
  11. twabby Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    7,241
    Likes Received:
    4,840
    Trophy Points:
    156
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Of course it's possible to be injured by a legal hit.

    Injury is a major factor in determining punishment, yes, but in almost all cases the legality of a hit is usually determined by the circumstances of the hit, rather than the outcome. For example, if Brandon Carlo did not have to go to the hospital after Tom Wilson clobbered his head into the boards but instead returned for his very next shift, it should have still been a penalty called on the ice for boarding. But the supplemental discipline should have been far less, or perhaps even nothing.
     
  12. Midnight Judges HFBoards Sponsor Sponsor

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2010
    Messages:
    10,003
    Likes Received:
    5,289
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Nobody has suggested you can eliminate injuries.

    You can try to reduce injuries by going after the ones that aren't necessary to the actual game of hockey.
     
  13. g00n t0m WiLs0n PhAnBoI

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2007
    Messages:
    22,821
    Likes Received:
    5,873
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    schmocation
    And how would you go about that? How do you define what's necessary and what isn't?
     
    Eirikrautha likes this.
  14. Midnight Judges HFBoards Sponsor Sponsor

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2010
    Messages:
    10,003
    Likes Received:
    5,289
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    I'm not suggesting to just punish based on the injury.

    But it is a necessary factor in the decision to punish.
     
  15. Midnight Judges HFBoards Sponsor Sponsor

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2010
    Messages:
    10,003
    Likes Received:
    5,289
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    If it's an illegal hit then that alone opens the door for a hit to be deemed unnecessary.
     
  16. g00n t0m WiLs0n PhAnBoI

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2007
    Messages:
    22,821
    Likes Received:
    5,873
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    schmocation


    You're aware that some of this horrible history you keep citing for Tom Wilson includes plays that did not result in missed shifts or missed games, right? Or even a penalty?

    When the NHL decided to get TW onto the books as a repeat offender during the 2017 preseason it started vs the Blues, with the 2 game suspension for hitting Robert Thomas. There was no penalty and no injury. But Wilson was still suspended 2 games.

    The 2nd suspension for the hit on Sammy Blais, just a few days later, came after Blais was checked for concussion and returned to the game. Wilson was ejected and suspended for 4 games despite poor camera coverage and what appeared to be a glancing blow.
     
  17. Calicaps NFA

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2006
    Messages:
    19,182
    Likes Received:
    9,486
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Female
    Occupation:
    editor
    Location:
    Berserkly
    You keep saying this but it doesn't make it true.

    anyway... DoPs basically said--and apparently the view is shared by some significant number of people within the league--that the "circumstances of the hit" as you say, weren't, in and of themselves, any big deal. You continue to ignore that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2021
    Corby78 and g00n like this.
  18. g00n t0m WiLs0n PhAnBoI

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2007
    Messages:
    22,821
    Likes Received:
    5,873
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    schmocation
    Is hitting violent?

    How so? Given again what I said earlier about the unpredictability of injury in hitting, and the acknowledged chance of injury even on legal hits?
     
  19. twabby Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    7,241
    Likes Received:
    4,840
    Trophy Points:
    156
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    If you are also denying Tom Wilson's gloves smashing Brandon Carlo's head into the boards, intentional or not, defenseless or not, then I'm afraid I will have to exit this discussion as well. There needs to be a shared reality in order to have a meaningful discussion.
     
  20. g00n t0m WiLs0n PhAnBoI

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2007
    Messages:
    22,821
    Likes Received:
    5,873
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    schmocation
    It's a disingenuous thing to keep saying. It gives the impression TW took his hands and PUSHED or in your terms "clobbered" Carlo's head into the boards when in reality TW's hands were pinned to his chest and the hit was basically torso to torso, with the hands just being IN BETWEEN.

    How would you have TW make that hit, then? It would've been a legal hit if not for the head contacting the boards, yes? And that happened because Carlo lowered his head at the last instant, down to where TW's hands were.

    This is in the damn rules, Twabby. When the guy being hit changes position at the last instant, it's supposed to change the "circumstance".
     
  21. Calicaps NFA

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2006
    Messages:
    19,182
    Likes Received:
    9,486
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Female
    Occupation:
    editor
    Location:
    Berserkly
    So if I don't agree with your version of events, you quit? OK.

    But for the record, here's the pic @Ridley Simon posted of the moment of contact... I don't see any gloves to the head. I see a side-of-shoulder to a front-of-shoulder with one hand out of view (presumably at Wilson's right side) and the other against Wilson's chest which is a natural spot as he's keeping his elbows to his body. (Not that you can see the yellow collar on Carlo's sweater, which if Tom was punching him in the fact right here, would be obscured.) [​IMG]
     
    g00n likes this.
  22. Midnight Judges HFBoards Sponsor Sponsor

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2010
    Messages:
    10,003
    Likes Received:
    5,289
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Not necessarily:

    Because as you said previously, injuries only happen on a very small fraction of hits, and yet Tom Wilson is the common denominator for a disproportionately large quantity of those injuries.

    So as a matter of data, Tom Wilson injuring opposing players actually is relatively predictable.

    I don't think you can punish for injuries on legal hits. Like, not at all. But once a hit is deemed illegal, the offending player bears the responsibility for it.
     
  23. Calicaps NFA

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2006
    Messages:
    19,182
    Likes Received:
    9,486
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Female
    Occupation:
    editor
    Location:
    Berserkly
    Is this actually true? Wilson also throws more hits than most players, even most hitters. What percentage of his hits actually results in injury?
     
  24. twabby Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    7,241
    Likes Received:
    4,840
    Trophy Points:
    156
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    [​IMG]

    His right fist clearly makes contact with Carlo's head and slams it into the boards.
     
  25. g00n t0m WiLs0n PhAnBoI

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2007
    Messages:
    22,821
    Likes Received:
    5,873
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    schmocation
    You do realize Carlo's fist clobbers Tom Wilson in the face before Wilson even touches Carlo, right?
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice
monitoring_string = "358c248ada348a047a4b9bb27a146148"