Player Discussion Tom Wilson, NHL All-Star (Part 3)

Midnight Judges

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Feb 10, 2010
13,590
10,181
The issue though is that DoPs and the league have set rules to "reduce" injury. If Wilson follows the rules (which the league has effectively acknowledged here) and someone gets injured, is it Wilson's fault or a failure of the rules? Is it appropriate to treat Wilson differently, despite the rules, simply because the rules aren't effective in the context of someone as big, fast, and strong as Willy? Or do you decide to create a separate rulebook just for him? The league, and per Friedman, a lot of insiders have said this hit is commonplace. Sometimes it ends in an injury. Sometimes not.

And Willy has gone nearly 2 years without a problem, modifying his game to fit the league's demands. In this particular case, the factor everyone keeps ignoring is that Wilson was coming in clean, totally in keeping with the modifications he's made since his last suspension. But he got a butt-end to the face just prior to making contact with Carlo, which changed the geometry of the hit. Otherwise, Carlo probably doesn't even get hurt and no one cares.

I seriously doubt anyone could possibly make a better case that this.^^^

And yet, it is simply common sense that Wilson's penchant for injuring guys cannot go unpunished. The rules are written for the league to have latitude. That is so they can protect the players. They are going to deploy it against him because he is doing real damage.

Lots of people argued that Matt Cooke couldn't possibly have injured Erik Karlsson on purpose. A lawyer could win that case. I don't believe it for a second. And I don't believe in Wilson's innocence because he does not deserve the benefit of any doubt. He was running around in that game looking for a huge hit, and he found one, and in the process he concussed an opposing player against the boards while he was already engaged with Vrana.
 

Calicaps

NFA
Aug 3, 2006
21,936
14,305
Almost Canada
I seriously doubt anyone could possibly make a better case that this.^^^

And yet, it is simply common sense that Wilson's penchant for injuring guys cannot go unpunished. The rules are written for the league to have latitude. That is so they can protect the players. They are going to deploy it against him because he is doing real damage.

Lots of people argued that Matt Cooke couldn't possibly have injured Erik Karlsson on purpose. A lawyer could win that case. I don't believe it for a second. And I don't believe in Wilson's innocence because he does not deserve the benefit of any doubt. He was running around in that game looking for a huge hit, and he found one, and in the process he concussed an opposing player against the boards while he was already engaged with Vrana.
So you entirely ignore the point about the stick to the face?
 
  • Like
Reactions: ALLCAPSALLTHETIME

Midnight Judges

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Feb 10, 2010
13,590
10,181
So you entirely ignore the point about the stick to the face?

I don't believe it changed Wilson's trajectory in any significant way. It happened bang bang with the contact to Carlo's head. I don't think Wilson even had time to react to the stick to the face.

The trajectory of Wilson's upper body was already going upwards prior to that anyway. He was pushing with his legs (not jumping) into the hit.

I do not understand how you all can be so confident that it isn't boarding or charging. Seems to me there is plenty of wiggle room within the rules to say this ought to have been a penalty.

Frankly, I think you're a good lawyer.
 

Ridley Simon

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Feb 27, 2002
18,245
9,221
Marin County — SF Bay Area, CA
This thread. Man. Tom Wilson is the fastest “Big Hockey Player” (FBHP) on the planet. If this was car racing, other drivers would demand a governor on his engine.

but it’s not. So look at this picture. Enlarge it. Tom was not penalized (and should NOT have been suspended) because it’s a legal hit to a player with the puck. Hits him square in the chest. But because Tom is the FBHP, everyone cries and he gets singled out. Literally any other player does the same hit, no one cares.

Yet some of you have the gall to say Tom doesn’t have his own rule book? That everything is equal?

Might as well create new rules to force McDavid to score less points, as he’s not fair either. Or to make Ovechkin takes softer slap shots. They aren’t fair. Or make Chara shorter, as what he did in Boston in his prime wasn’t fair. Or not allow Hasek to be so flexible as a goalie. That wasn’t fair either.


cut.jpg
 

g00n

Retired Global Mod
Nov 22, 2007
30,527
14,542
They said that? Like "This is a perfectly legal hit but since someone got injured we are suspending him."

Where?

Edit: Okay you are flat out mistaken. DOPS said "This is boarding." You can hear the guy say it yourself:

Wilson suspended seven games for Capitals by NHL Player Safety

First of all, I wasn't talking about one hit, or this one hit, so your quote was out of context. I was talking about the premise that injury should factor into legality when something like hitting is concerned. It's a flawed approach.

Second, here's the relevant quote from DoPS via a link:

"While there are aspects of this hit that may skirt the line between suspendable and not suspendable, it is the totality of the circumstances that cause this play to merit supplemental discipline," the Department of Player Safety explainer video states. "What separates this hit from others is the direct and significant contact to a defenseless player's face and head causing a violent impact with the glass. This is a player with a substantial disciplinary record taking advantage of an opponent who is in a defenseless position and doing so with significant force."

They're admitting that they could just as easily let this go but because it's Tom Wilson they're issuing a suspension. They're also ignoring the fact that Carlo dropped his head, and Wilson didn't give any indication of intentionally smashing his head into the glass.

The wording of the Boarding rule is extremely broad and as such any "violent" hit could be penalized. Increasing subjective measures of "violence" or even "attempt to injure" can scale up the penalization. But what hit isn't "violent"?

If the rules are created that way, to allow for the inevitable consequences of hits, then how can anyone be blamed for engaging in the same practices the rest of the league employ? What's to stop any player from pushing that limit of contact? And what is the point of a hit that isn't "violent" enough to knock a guy off the puck, or otherwise have some impact on play?

So there's a lot of leeway built into the rule because the people who wrote it understood how difficult it is to remove injury and violence from the sport, and that some level of it is going to have to be tolerated.

Those arguing for punitive action based on assumptions of intent to injure, or some magical power that TW is presumed to have to deliver "borderline legal" hits when measured against a rule that's intentionally going to make EVERY SINGLE HIT "borderline", can only be arguing for ALL hits to be removed if they're arguing for removal of injury from the game as a result of hitting. There is no other way, which is why the rule is vague, broad, and places some responsibility on the player being hit.

By the rule this was probably at worst a 2 minute penalty that happened to result in injury. So it could easily, by the rule, have been an "otherwise legal hit" depending on the subjective interpretations of the terms of the rule, again as the NHL admits to be vague and open-ended.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ALLCAPSALLTHETIME

Midnight Judges

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Feb 10, 2010
13,590
10,181
First of all, I wasn't talking about one hit, or this one hit, so your quote was out of context. I was talking about the premise that injury should factor into legality when something like hitting is concerned. It's a flawed approach.

Second, here's the relevant quote from DoPS via a link:

"While there are aspects of this hit that may skirt the line between suspendable and not suspendable, it is the totality of the circumstances that cause this play to merit supplemental discipline," the Department of Player Safety explainer video states. "What separates this hit from others is the direct and significant contact to a defenseless player's face and head causing a violent impact with the glass. This is a player with a substantial disciplinary record taking advantage of an opponent who is in a defenseless position and doing so with significant force."

They're admitting that they could just as easily let this go but because it's Tom Wilson they're issuing a suspension. They're also ignoring the fact that Carlo dropped his head, and Wilson didn't give any indication of intentionally smashing his head into the glass.

The wording of the Boarding rule is extremely broad and as such any "violent" hit could be penalized. Increasing subjective measures of "violence" or even "attempt to injure" can scale up the penalization. But what hit isn't "violent"?

If the rules are created that way, to allow for the inevitable consequences of hits, then how can anyone be blamed for engaging in the same practices the rest of the league employ? What's to stop any player from pushing that limit of contact? And what is the point of a hit that isn't "violent" enough to knock a guy off the puck, or otherwise have some impact on play?

So there's a lot of leeway built into the rule because the people who wrote it understood how difficult it is to remove injury and violence from the sport, and that some level of it is going to have to be tolerated.

Those arguing for punitive action based on assumptions of intent to injure, or some magical power that TW is presumed to have to deliver "borderline legal" hits when measured against a rule that's intentionally going to make EVERY SINGLE HIT "borderline", can only be arguing for ALL hits to be removed if they're arguing for removal of injury from the game as a result of hitting. There is no other way, which is why the rule is vague, broad, and places some responsibility on the player being hit.

By the rule this was probably at worst a 2 minute penalty that happened to result in injury. So it could easily, by the rule, have been an "otherwise legal hit" depending on the subjective interpretations of the terms of the rule, again as the NHL admits to be vague and open-ended.

Dude. The video is quite explicit and unequivocal. They state - unambiguously, multiple times - "This is boarding." Then they go through the definition of boarding and show how it applies.

You are latching onto the one small part that you want to hear.
 
Last edited:

maacoshark

Registered User
Jul 22, 2017
9,629
3,723
I don't believe it changed Wilson's trajectory in any significant way. It happened bang bang with the contact to Carlo's head. I don't think Wilson even had time to react to the stick to the face.

The trajectory of Wilson's upper body was already going upwards prior to that anyway. He was pushing with his legs (not jumping) into the hit.

I do not understand how you all can be so confident that it isn't boarding or charging. Seems to me there is plenty of wiggle room within the rules to say this ought to have been a penalty.

Frankly, I think you're a good lawyer.
Who are you. From what Im reading, you arent a fan of old school hockey. I dont think this hit was illegal. At some point players need to take responsibility for their own safety and the has acknowledge that. Keep your fricken head up and be aware of your surroundings. It shouldnt be upto Wilson.
 

g00n

Retired Global Mod
Nov 22, 2007
30,527
14,542
Dude. The video is quite explicit and unequivocal. They state - unambiguously, multiple times - "This is boarding." Then they go through the definition of boarding and show how it applies.

You are latching onto the one small part that you want to hear.

/facepalm

I don't know how else to say it. I really don't. But I'll try.

OF COURSE IT'S BOARDING BECAUSE PER THE RULE LANGUAGE EVERY HIT ON THE BOARDS CAN BE CALLED BOARDING.

JFC was that not clear from the last post? Or the hundreds that have come before dealing with the way the rule is written? Most LEGAL hits COULD be penalized as Boarding per the rule's language. That's by DESIGN. So any determination of Boarding on THIS hit is relatively MEANINGLESS!

Again, any disclaimer or rule that's open-ended is usually going to benefit the party that writes it. The NHL wrote the rule so nearly ANY hit that's worth a shit can be penalized based on the ref's interpretation. Go read the f***ing rule. I've posted it here probably dozens of times over the years, and 2-3 times this week.

The REAL issue is whether supplementary discipline was warranted, and per the NHL's statement they could've gone either way. But because of head contact with the boards that was arguably partly Carlo's fault (head dropped at last instant) and because of BEING TOM WILSON (reputation, history), they decided to suspend for 7 games instead of ZERO.

So what does all this mean? It means a hit that may not even have been suspendable IF it wasn't TOM WILSON is instead a 7 game suspension because TOM WILSON.

The rules are so broad that all hits are potentially penalties, and who you are or resulting injury becomes the measure of legality. This is 100% bullshit and should not be the standard.

If you want hitting in the game you have to accept the dangers. Period. These are not teenagers figure skating. They're grown men playing professional hockey. They know the risks.

This is an optics move by the NHL. That's it.
 
Last edited:

txpd

Registered User
Jan 25, 2003
69,649
14,131
New Bern, NC
Dude. The video is quite explicit and unequivocal. They state - unambiguously, multiple times - "This is boarding." Then they go through the definition of boarding and show how it applies.

You are latching onto the one small part that you want to hear.

Its been reported that Wilson is the only player in NHL history to be suspended for boarding when no hit from behind was involved. The league is making it clear that they will make new law for Wilson. The use of the phrase totality of the circumstances or something immediately after admitting that type of hit is common and there was nothing specific that was suspendable, On the 31 thoughts podcast they referenced this as a change. The said we dont like the hit. We dont have a rule to use on but that wont matter anymore.
 

maacoshark

Registered User
Jul 22, 2017
9,629
3,723
Dude. The video is quite explicit and unequivocal. They state - unambiguously, multiple times - "This is boarding." Then they go through the definition of boarding and show how it applies.

You are latching onto the one small part that you want to hear.
I disagree that this was boarding. The problem with this hit was that Carlo put himself in a vulnerable position by putting his head down just before the hit. Totally clueless of his surroundings. Yes, I blame this play on Carlo. Just absorb the hit and everything would have been fine.
I played hockey for over 20 years and never once got my bell rung from a hit. But in that era players were more aware of what was going on. In fact when you touched the puck you just assumed that you were going to get hit.
These young guys need to learn the game.
 

AussieCapsFan

Registered User
Apr 30, 2017
2,990
2,638
Gold Coast
I seriously doubt anyone could possibly make a better case that this.^^^

And yet, it is simply common sense that Wilson's penchant for injuring guys cannot go unpunished. The rules are written for the league to have latitude. That is so they can protect the players. They are going to deploy it against him because he is doing real damage.

Lots of people argued that Matt Cooke couldn't possibly have injured Erik Karlsson on purpose. A lawyer could win that case. I don't believe it for a second. And I don't believe in Wilson's innocence because he does not deserve the benefit of any doubt. He was running around in that game looking for a huge hit, and he found one, and in the process he concussed an opposing player against the boards while he was already engaged with Vrana.

Couldn't have said it better myself. And I'm fairly sure this is exactly how DOPS viewed it as well.
 

HTFN

Registered User
Feb 8, 2009
12,260
10,884
I know it was a while ago, but every time this play comes up as "boarding" I remember when Vincent Lecavalier tossed Jack Hillen from a little inside the goal line directly into the boards, absolutely f***ed him up, and nobody said anything. This shit happens all the time and people get hurt, from 4-5 feet out, and the NHL says nothing. Wilson hits a guy in the chest less than a foot away from the boards and it's boarding.

Video: Caps' Hillen injured (shoulder) by Lecavalier hit, placed on IR | ProHockeyTalk | NBC Sports
 

txpd

Registered User
Jan 25, 2003
69,649
14,131
New Bern, NC
Tom Wilson is injuring other players because of his own choices on the ice.

Lets make this clear. Are you saying that injuries from legal hits are Wilson's responsibility and he should not make those legal plays? There was no fines. No suspensions for all 3 of those plays. All resulted injuries and games lost.

A couple of reminders for context.





 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: ALLCAPSALLTHETIME

Calicaps

NFA
Aug 3, 2006
21,936
14,305
Almost Canada
I don't believe it changed Wilson's trajectory in any significant way. It happened bang bang with the contact to Carlo's head. I don't think Wilson even had time to react to the stick to the face.

The trajectory of Wilson's upper body was already going upwards prior to that anyway. He was pushing with his legs (not jumping) into the hit.

I do not understand how you all can be so confident that it isn't boarding or charging. Seems to me there is plenty of wiggle room within the rules to say this ought to have been a penalty.

Frankly, I think you're a good lawyer.
That’s insulting.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ALLCAPSALLTHETIME

txpd

Registered User
Jan 25, 2003
69,649
14,131
New Bern, NC
For charging he was gliding for a lenthy period of time. There was no charge. Boarding is usually called for hitting from behind or a player away from the boards who is launched dangerously into them. Carlo was not hit from behind and was flush against the boards
 
  • Like
Reactions: ALLCAPSALLTHETIME

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad