Player Discussion Tom Wilson, NHL All-Star (Part 3)

[Midnight Judges]

Yes, it's impossible to prove that Matt Cooke or Raffi Torres committing the same hit at the same point in his career after the same history would get the same punishment, but it's also impossible to disprove.

You can make a pretty good case that Cooke got off for several hits that he should have been suspended for - well after the pattern was established. And during that time frame (2011-2014) where he was still dirty and dangerous but not suspended, many NHL media and Penguins advocates said Cooke had been rehabilitated.

Then he deliberately stomped his skate blade on Erik Karlsson's ankle causing a serious and dangerous injury.

That said, I thought the rules were supposed to have gotten more stringent since then - which renders the comparison difficult anyway.

 

[Hivemind]

You can make a pretty good case that Cooke got off for several hits that he should have been suspended for - well after the pattern was established. And during that time frame wherte he was still dirty and dangerous but not suspended, many NHL media and Penguins advocates said Cooke had been rehabilitated.

You can also make the case that Wilson got off from several hits worthy of supplemental discipline before his suspension streak started. The DoPS even went so far to issue a video on why they WEREN'T suspending Wilson once, which is a pretty unprecedented event. Those who argue a bias against Tom Wilson that stems from previous bias against Tom Wilson are conveniently ignoring the lengths the NHL went to avoid suspending Tom Wilson before they finally did.

 

[twabby]

And whataboutism would signify that I am trying to get Tom Wilson off scott-free by bringing up unrelated incidents with loose connections. I am actually saying: punish Tom, but punish everyone else equally if you truly care about players. Just do it.

This is fine, but this isn't what posters like @g00n are saying. They're saying Wilson shouldn't have been suspended at all. That's where my disagreement comes.

 

[Ovie's Neighbor]

Whataboutism

It’s not whataboutism when the rules are only being applied to a single player. Wilson is being singled out and treated entirely differently than the rest of the players in the league.

 

[Midnight Judges]

It’s not whataboutism when the rules are only being applied to a single player. Wilson is being singled out and treated entirely differently than the rest of the players in the league.

Has any other player injured as many people as Tom Wilson? Might that be the rationale behind the disparate treatment?

 

[twabby]

If you think he clobbered the guy in the head with his fists you're blind.

I think this may be the point where I'll have to exit this conversation. If you watched the video and can't even admit that Wilson's hand creamed Carlo's head into the boards (intentional or not, defenseless or not) then there's really no hope for a constructive discussion. Watching the video, coming to this conclusion, and then calling me blind is unique bad faith homerism on your part and I truly, honestly hope you overcome this.

 

[twabby]

Yep....when you have to use Matt Cooke to attack one of your own team’s players.....


Paaaaaaaathetic.

It is disappointing that Tom Wilson has behaved in such a way to be legitimately compared to Matt Cooke. Hopefully Wilson reflects on this and does better going forward.

 

[g00n]

I think this may be the point where I'll have to exit this conversation. If you watched the video and can't even admit that Wilson's hand creamed Carlo's head into the boards (intentional or not, defenseless or not) then there's really no hope for a constructive discussion. Watching the video, coming to this conclusion, and then calling me blind is unique bad faith homerism on your part and I truly, honestly hope you overcome this.

Go ahead and leave. Bye.

The language and characterizations you're using here are hyperbolic and sometimes outright false. Saying he's "clobbering a guy in the head with his fists" to summarize is just crap. His GLOVES made contact with Carlo's head because Carlo's head was lowered to the level of Wilson's chest, which is where his HANDS were--DOWN, and not punching with FISTS to CLOBBER a guy's head into the glass.

So again, you have to be completely blind or just bad faith posting to say shit like that.

 

[txpd]

Anyone remember when Niskanen "crosschecked" Crosby in the head? Crosby goes down right in Niskanen's face. With 2 hands on his stick he lifts it to protect himself. Crosby hits the stick with his head. Anyone remember when Dave Steckel targeted Crosby's head with that deliberate attempt to injure?

 

[Calicaps]

Has any other player injured as many people as Tom Wilson? Might that be the rationale behind the disparate treatment?

The issue though is that DoPs and the league have set rules to "reduce" injury. If Wilson follows the rules (which the league has effectively acknowledged here) and someone gets injured, is it Wilson's fault or a failure of the rules? Is it appropriate to treat Wilson differently, despite the rules, simply because the rules aren't effective in the context of someone as big, fast, and strong as Willy? Or do you decide to create a separate rulebook just for him? The league, and per Friedman, a lot of insiders have said this hit is commonplace. Sometimes it ends in an injury. Sometimes not.

And Willy has gone nearly 2 years without a problem, modifying his game to fit the league's demands. In this particular case, the factor everyone keeps ignoring is that Wilson was coming in clean, totally in keeping with the modifications he's made since his last suspension. But he got a butt-end to the face just prior to making contact with Carlo, which changed the geometry of the hit. Otherwise, Carlo probably doesn't even get hurt and no one cares.

 

[txpd]

Has any other player injured as many people as Tom Wilson? Might that be the rationale behind the disparate treatment?

How long have you been watching hockey? We can start with Gordie Howe. Scott Stevens says hello. Eric Lindros. Thats without going to the huge bag of dirty players like Moose Dupont and Dale Hunter and Ken Linseman and Claude Lemieux. They injured players ALL THE TIME.

 

[um]

How long have you been watching hockey? We can start with Gordie Howe. Scott Stevens says hello. Eric Lindros. Thats without going to the huge bag of dirty players like Moose Dupont and Dale Hunter and Ken Linseman and Claude Lemieux. They injured players ALL THE TIME.

What great company Wilson is in.

 

[txpd]

What great company Wilson is in.

Howe? Clark? Stevens? Hall of Fame. The point however being that all those players injured more players than Wilson just off the top of my head as a response to the idea that no other player injures as often. Next please

 

[um]

Howe? Clark? Stevens? Hall of Fame. The point however being that all those players injured more players than Wilson just off the top of my head as a response to the idea that no other player injures as often. Next please

all played before this CTE stuff.

Its not so fun having a guy on your team constantly injure players on other teams. I like Wilson more when he's a two way beast who finishes every check, I don't need him to absolutely truck guys and send them to the hospital.

 

[g00n]

all played before this CTE stuff.

Its not so fun having a guy on your team constantly injure players on other teams. I like Wilson more when he's a two way beast who finishes every check, I don't need him to absolutely truck guys and send them to the hospital.

Then you have two options:

1. Remove hitting from the game because a non-zero number of people will get hurt
2. Stop watching hockey

The rules evolved to handle the crap that happens on the ice. Collisions are inevitable so they're incorporated into the rulebook. Other levels of competition don't have hitting, but the NHL does. So if you want to remove injuries from hits you have to remove hits. Period. There is no way the NHL is going to have hitting and not injuries. And if you have hitting you're going to have guys who push the limits, because like everything else it becomes competitive/valuable.

So if you don't want Tom Wilsons or Hunters or Howes or Stevens in the game then ban hitting. Otherwise it's just complaining about the inevitable. If it's not Wilson on the Caps it will be some other guy on some other team.

 

[tenken00]

Go ahead and leave. Bye.

The language and characterizations you're using here are hyperbolic and sometimes outright false. Saying he's "clobbering a guy in the head with his fists" to summarize is just crap. His GLOVES made contact with Carlo's head because Carlo's head was lowered to the level of Wilson's chest, which is where his HANDS were--DOWN, and not punching with FISTS to CLOBBER a guy's head into the glass.

So again, you have to be completely blind or just bad faith posting to say shit like that.

Nah don't leave @twabby. No matter what disagreements we have, we're all Caps fans here, united by the team we love.

And it's always interesting to see opposing viewpoints, it's what makes life interesting lol. Gives HFCaps some flavor and spice instead of bland drivel. Reason why I come to this board day after day and appreciate everyone's comments.

 

[txpd]

Nah don't leave @twabby.

I think what he said was he would leave that conversation.

 

[Corby78]

Has any other player injured as many people as Tom Wilson? Might that be the rationale behind the disparate treatment?

If the injuries are the concern, then change the rules and tell Tom he needs to follow the new rules. There isn't a penalty or fine for injuring another player.

Nobody wants players injured, but to punish somebody for a legal hit just because he has a history and somebody got hurt is not the correct answer.

 

[Midnight Judges]

How long have you been watching hockey? We can start with Gordie Howe. Scott Stevens says hello. Eric Lindros. Thats without going to the huge bag of dirty players like Moose Dupont and Dale Hunter and Ken Linseman and Claude Lemieux. They injured players ALL THE TIME.

I was referring to current players, although I didn't state it in my post so on that basis your reply is fair enough.

Obviously the NHL has a reduced appetite for injuries these days - head injuries in particular.

 

[txpd]

I was referring to current players, although I didn't state it in my post so on that basis your reply is fair enough.

Obviously the NHL has a reduced appetite for injuries these days - head injuries in particular.

Current players barely hit. That is what makes Wilson such a big deal. He is just about the only top 6 forward that is also such a big hitter. BTW....I think Ov hurt at least as many guys as Wilson has. So did Orpik.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Then you have two options:

1. Remove hitting from the game because a non-zero number of people will get hurt
2. Stop watching hockey

The rules evolved to handle the crap that happens on the ice. Collisions are inevitable so they're incorporated into the rulebook. Other levels of competition don't have hitting, but the NHL does. So if you want to remove injuries from hits you have to remove hits. Period. There is no way the NHL is going to have hitting and not injuries. And if you have hitting you're going to have guys who push the limits, because like everything else it becomes competitive/valuable.

So if you don't want Tom Wilsons or Hunters or Howes or Stevens in the game then ban hitting. Otherwise it's just complaining about the inevitable. If it's not Wilson on the Caps it will be some other guy on some other team.

You actually seem to know how wrong you are which is the ONLY reason to deploy a straw man argument.

Nobody is saying that there have to be zero injuries from hitting. And yet you are arguing as if anyone suggested that. If they did, you should quote that person instead of the guy you quoted who specifically said he enjoyed a finished check.

Tom Wilson is injuring opposing players more than any other player playing under the current rules. It's not a coincidence. It's not bad luck. It's not a conspiracy. It's not because he's the biggest or fastest or strongest guy in the NHL. Tom Wilson is none of those things.

Tom Wilson is injuring other players because of his own choices on the ice.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Here all, read this thread. This is you, had you been born in Pittsburgh:

The Matt Cooke Appreciation Thread

 

[Midnight Judges]

Anyone remember when Niskanen "crosschecked" Crosby in the head? Crosby goes down right in Niskanen's face. With 2 hands on his stick he lifts it to protect himself. Crosby hits the stick with his head. Anyone remember when Dave Steckel targeted Crosby's head with that deliberate attempt to injure?

I didn't think Niskanen should have gotten in any trouble on that one. It was spur of the moment. The vitriol towards Niskanen - who played an entire career of pretty clean hockey - was driven by irrational emotions in defense of Canada's chosen child.

 

[g00n]

You actually seem to know how wrong you are which is the ONLY reason to deploy a straw man argument.

Nobody is saying that there have to be zero injuries from hitting. And yet you are arguing as if anyone suggested that. If they did, you should quote that person instead of the guy you quoted who specifically said he enjoyed a finished check.

Tom Wilson is injuring opposing players more than any other player playing under the current rules. It's not a coincidence. It's not bad luck. It's not a conspiracy. It's not because he's the biggest or fastest or strongest guy in the NHL. Tom Wilson is none of those things.

Tom Wilson is injuring other players because of his own choices on the ice.

No, I'm correct. You all are not taking responsibility for the implications of your comments, which is that otherwise legal hits by the rules that cause injury are unacceptable. Otherwise you wouldn't be arguing so strongly about this hit.

Nor are you reading what others are writing. I explained the reasning behind the rules of the NHL and the logical conclusion is either accept some injury in the game as a result of escalating optimization of hitting, or ban hitting to stop the injuries.

 

[g00n]

Here all, read this thread. This is you, had you been born in Pittsburgh:

The Matt Cooke Appreciation Thread

More Cooke? Fail.