Player Discussion Todd McLellan

[ConnorMcNugesaitl]

The Pronger trade was not something that would've been possible prior to the new CBA and we were straight up lucky. Hemsky and Stoll were drafted, we paid a dear price for Roli (1st rounder vs. what we paid for Talbot) Spacek and Samsonov were rentals only.

Pronger who was better than Hall ever has been was traded for a less than great return and we then whittled down those assets over time.

It's also easy to point to guys like Stoll and Hemsky when it's too early to say what we have in Puljujarvi, Yamamoto and Bouchard. We are a few young players stepping up from being a very good team, things are far from as doom and gloom as you have been preaching here for months.

What would've prevented the Pronger trade in the new cba?

As far as I can tell it was a player (Brewer) and prospects which ended up not panning out for Pronger. The Oilers didn't send any cash or anything to St. Louis.

It was a straight up hockey trade. One that was inspired by bad advice because they were told moving him would make the franchise more valuable.

But the trade was made during the salary cap era.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

The Pronger trade is an example of a GM taking advantage of an good situation ... how many times has Chiarelli done that for us in a major way?

A mid/low 1st for Roloson was a bargain considering he brought us to the SCF.

Hemsky and Stoll were drafted, which is something Lowe is never given credit for (or very little for), there's a high probability neither Puljujarvi or Yamamoto are ever as good as Hemsky.

But of course the excuses are already out on that front too, Puljujarvi can't be Chia's fault because he was the consensus pick at 4. So he'll be given a pass by some for that no matter what. He can blow the 2015 pick that could have been Barzal/Connor/Boeser and the 2016 pick that could have been Sergachev or Tkachuk and it's no big deal, or so some would like to say.

The reality is you can't keep missing on opportunities like this and then wonder "gee, why are we a bad team?". Because you having ****ing terrible management, you deserve to be bad. Puljujarvi better damn well pan out.

How many times has he been presented with such an opportunity?

Had we not gotten there it would've been a massive overpay.

Sometimes things work out, I for one am not ready to close the book on a 20 year old Puljujarvi and a 19 year old Yamamoto. Hemsky has always been overrated by our fanbase.

If he doesn't then what? You use your Hall and Eberle jammies to dry off even more tears? We've seen Yakupov bust, as Oilers fans we should know better than most that there is almost no such thing as a sure bet. In the meantime give the kids a chance to make it before flinging poo at them.

What would've prevented the Pronger trade in the new cba?

As far as I can tell it was a player (Brewer) and prospects which ended up not panning out for Pronger. The Oilers didn't send any cash or anything to St. Louis.

It was a straight up hockey trade. One that was inspired by bad advice because they were told moving him would make the franchise more valuable.

But the trade was made during the salary cap era.

It was made because of his asking price at the time IIRC. It was a shrewd move by Lowe but one that happened because of the new CBA at the time being in place and the Blues not wanting to pay Pronger his ask.

 

[nabob]

Nah, they wouldn't do that to him... He's expected to learn English on his own time.

So while sitting on the bench?

 

[Soundwave]

How many times has he been presented with such an opportunity?

Had we not gotten there it would've been a massive overpay.

Sometimes things work out, I for one am not ready to close the book on a 20 year old Puljujarvi and a 19 year old Yamamoto. Hemsky has always been overrated by our fanbase.

If he doesn't then what? You use your Hall and Eberle jammies to dry off even more tears? We've seen Yakupov bust, as Oilers fans we should know better than most that there is almost no such thing as a sure bet. In the meantime give the kids a chance to make it before flinging poo at them.



It was made because of his asking price at the time IIRC. It was a shrewd move by Lowe but one that happened because of the new CBA at the time being in place and the Blues not wanting to pay Pronger his ask.

Then the franchise will have blown golden opportunities in the 2015 and 2016 drafts to give McDavid a good supporting core if Pulju does not become an impact player.

Which can be hand waved away fine, but don't give me a sob story after wards that you can't believe you don't have a good team. Blowing drafts and losing trades along with garbage cap management have consequences.

If Lowe had done all these things and had the team at 78 points in McDavid's third year as the scoring champion he'd be getting murdered by all the fanbase and rightfully so.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Garth Snow didn't win many trades other than ripping off Chiarelli a few times.

how is it "ripping off" if his team didn't get better from said trades?

Being able to trade competently IS a central part of being a GM, you can't have it both ways and rip Lowe for say the Pitkanen deal but give Chiarelli a pass, that's ridiculous.

no, building a winning team is the essential part of being a GM...whether it's drafting and development, trades or UFA signings

Bad trades hurt a franchise there is no doubt. He didn't have to trade much in Boston because he inherited a stronger roster there, but there were big warning signs on that front later on in his tenure in Boston and he's flat out killed us not being able to trade here.

Bruins record before he got there:
29-37-16
ok then

When he is forced to have to trade players as a key part of his roster build, he has shown himself to be very mediocre. Lowe was a better GM even though he had his warts too.

do I really have to pull up Lowe's and Chiarelli's records as GMs? it's not even close lol

 

[Spawn]

The Oilers were both the 23rd worst team in the league this past season and cumulatively over the past 3 years under Chiarelli.

And we're trying to argue that he's building a winning team? Am I missing something here?

Or is it just the one season where we were good that matters, and the book ends don't count?

 

[rboomercat90]

The Oilers were both the 23rd worst team in the league this past season and cumulatively over the past 3 years under Chiarelli.

And we're trying to argue that he's building a winning team? Am I missing something here?

Or is it just the one season where we were good that matters, and the book ends don't count?

I’m willing to believe this team is what it really is by what we see on the ice this year. They aren’t the first team to fall hard after finally making the playoffs. If last year was the fluke then they’ll rebound. If they don’t then this team is as bad as some think it is and it’s time to look at everything.

 

[Soundwave]

how is it "ripping off" if his team didn't get better from said trades?


no, building a winning team is the essential part of being a GM...whether it's drafting and development, trades or UFA signings


Bruins record before he got there:
29-37-16
ok then


do I really have to pull up Lowe's and Chiarelli's records as GMs? it's not even close lol

He has not built a winning team here, last time I checked 1/3 winning seasons is not a winning team and IMO will never take this team anywhere.

Do compare his record to Kevin Lowe's in Edmonton, they're about the same, Lowe's teams for the actual time he was GM were competitive for a playoff spot every single season except 06-07 when they opted to tank after trading Smyth.

And Lowe never had the benefit of McLottery ... if you remove McDavid from this team its probably the worst team in the NHL.

If he's such a genius, the Oilers would've been in the playoffs last year, he's a fraud, like hiring a taxi driver that can't drive at night -- you're not going to know that if you just have him drive in the day, because it's never going to come up. But if you end up driving at night you're going to realize you're in big trouble, Chia was able to get by in Boston not having to make many key trades because he had Bergeron, Krejci, Savard, Kessel, Lucic, Marchand, Chara, Rask, and Thomas already there on day 1.

Chiarelli did not have to make major trades in Boston until later in his tenure where he started to show some serious red flags, in Edmonton he has and has gotten totally exposed for being terrible at it. If Lowe had done the same moves Chiarelli had the last three years and had the same results, you would be blasting him.

Chia gets a pass I guess for being more bald and having a different name. Hand wave and excuse city, trades don't matter (no big deal, lol), etc. etc. etc. Gimme a break.

 

[Soundwave]

The Oilers btw in Lowe's first three years as GM had a total of 277 points, and that included being forced to trade away the best player on the team in Doug Weight and then trade away Mike Comrie too for money reasons ... the Oilers under Chia for three years with McDavid + Draisaitl + RNH, being able to trade Hall and Eberle as trade chips, spending huge UFA money + billionaire owner and two Art Ross scoring titles from McDavid have 251 points to show for it in three years ... and it's easier to get points now because of 3-on-3 OT + shootouts.

Yeah this is totally "winning", if it is then the Mediocre Flames must be on the verge of a Stanley Cup.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

The Oilers btw in Lowe's first three years as GM had a total of 277 points, and that included being forced to trade away the best player on the team in Doug Weight and then trade away Mike Comrie too for money reasons ... the Oilers under Chia for three years with McDavid + Draisaitl + RNH, spending huge UFA money + billionaire owner have 251 points in three years ... and it's easier to get points now because of 3-on-3 OT + shootouts.

Yeah this is totally "winning".

Lol how are the situations even comparable? Lowe already had a playoff team when he came aboard
Chia had a loser franchise with loser players

And now compare Lowe’s seasons with Chiarelli’s Bruins seasons...

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

If he's such a genius, the Oilers would've been in the playoffs last year, he's a fraud, like hiring a taxi driver that can't drive at night -- you're not going to know that if you just have him drive in the day, because it's never going to come up. But if you end up driving at night you're going to realize you're in big trouble, Chia was able to get by in Boston not having to make many key trades because he had Bergeron, Krejci, Savard, Kessel, Lucic, Marchand, Chara, Rask, and Thomas already there on day 1.

Oh so he identified a core and built around it to become a perennial Cup contender?
Yeah what a bad GM

 

[Soundwave]

Lol how are the situations even comparable? Lowe already had a playoff team when he came aboard
Chia had a loser franchise with loser players

And now compare Lowe’s seasons with Chiarelli’s Bruins seasons...

Even if you remove the first season Lowe had with Doug Weight, and add the next three seasons, you get which would be a devastating blow to any team let alone a small market team with 1/3 the payroll of other teams ... the Lowe Oilers still are way ahead of Chiarelli's results, 273 points vs. 251 with no superstar tier player, let alone the NHL's freaking scoring leader.

There are plenty of players that get exposed all the time for putting up points in good situations but can't replicate that when taken away from playing with say a superstar player.

The same thing happens with GMs ... there's more than a few that look a lot better than they are because they were gift wrapped a great situation. When they are put into a bit more challenging or different situation ... they get exposed.

And Chiarelli is getting badly exposed here without the luxury of having Chara + Marchand + Krejci + Kessel + Savard + Bergeron + Rask + Thomas (at least one great player at virtually every position, in some cases 2 or 3 ... any one can build a good team given that from the get go).

Chiarelli's "core" is garbage, all the crap he's put around McDavid I would bet good money a lot of this trash is not gonna be here in 2-3 years time. Lucic, Caggiula, Benning, Sekera, Strome, quite possibly Puljujarvi if he doesn't get it and soon are gonzo.

This is not a "core" this is a bunch of leechers that McDavid has to drag along outside of RNH, and Drai, both of whom Chia had nothing to do with. "Identifying a core" is not the hard part, "Chara is a good player, so is Bergeron, this Marchand guy might be good" ... no shit sherlock.

 

[syz]

Lol how are the situations even comparable? Lowe already had a playoff team when he came aboard
Chia had a loser franchise with loser players

And now compare Lowe’s seasons with Chiarelli’s Bruins seasons...

Chia had Connor f***ing McDavid. What a stupid comment.

 

[Soundwave]

Chia had Connor ****ing McDavid. What a stupid comment.

Best player on the planet 2/3 seasons.

After being forced to trade both his best players in 2000-01 (Weight & Guerin), the Oilers averaged 91 points a season for the next 3 years under Kevin Lowe. You can't say that was the same team he as the Sather teams, the two best players were gone because ownership couldn't afford them.

With the best player in the world + two 70+ point seasons from Draisaitl + ability to spend $20+ million in UFAs/roster "upgrades", Chiarelli has a 3 year average here of 83.6 points.

Shouldn't Adam Larsson be better than Eric Brewer? It's not like Janne Niinima was a Norris caliber D either.

The best player on the team was either Mike Comrie or Ryan Smyth and even Comrie had to go because of money. McDavid is as good as Comrie + Smyth combined at least.

This is not "winning". This is what failing looks like.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Chia had Connor ****ing McDavid. What a stupid comment.

this team had Taylor f***ing Hall, Nuge, Eberle, Schultz
they had talent before....they didn't even muster 70 points most of the time

why?

 

[harpoon]

Nah, they wouldn't do that to him... He's expected to learn English on his own time.

Just curious .. whose time should he be learning on? We can fault management for many things, failing to force feed English into JP's brain is not one of those things. No idea why some fans are unwilling to recognize that Puljujarvi's failure to learn English starting years ago is on him alone.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

this team had Taylor ****ing Hall, Nuge, Eberle, Schultz
they had talent before....they didn't even muster 70 points most of the time

why?

That core struggled to make the playoffs in the AHL.

 

[fuswald]

Title says McLellan must be a misprint. Should say Chiarelli

 

[Raoul Duke]

this team had Taylor ****ing Hall, Nuge, Eberle, Schultz
they had talent before....they didn't even muster 70 points most of the time

why?

Because the rest of the team was terrible.
Still is.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Because the rest of the team was terrible.
Still is.

Surely that core could muster at least 30 wins...

I mean McDavid lifted them to 36 wins on his own, am I right?

 

[I am the Liquor]

Then the franchise will have blown golden opportunities in the 2015 and 2016 drafts to give McDavid a good supporting core if Pulju does not become an impact player.

Which can be hand waved away fine, but don't give me a sob story after wards that you can't believe you don't have a good team. Blowing drafts and losing trades along with garbage cap management have consequences.

If Lowe had done all these things and had the team at 78 points in McDavid's third year as the scoring champion he'd be getting murdered by all the fanbase and rightfully so.

What does this have to do with Todd McLellan? How many times do we have to see this hand waving in threads that have nothing to do with the topic?

 

[Cypress]

I'm curious to see how TMac will look this year. Last year, to me at least, the coaching staff performance was as bad as post-christmas Lucic and the worst aspect of the team.

 

[redgrant]

Oh so he identified a core and built around it to become a perennial Cup contender?
Yeah what a bad GM

He built around it? No Tim Thomas played ungodly for a few weeks.

The team hasn't done much since 2011. The new core they're developing is from AFTER chairelli was rightfully fired.

 

[redgrant]

this team had Taylor ****ing Hall, Nuge, Eberle, Schultz
they had talent before....they didn't even muster 70 points most of the time

why?

Um because they didn't have a Draisaitl McDavid with a few years experience?

Little different when your centres are Roy and will acton.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

He built around it? No Tim Thomas played ungodly for a few weeks.

what about when they made the finals again in 2013? or won the Presidents trophy a couple years later?

The team hasn't done much since 2011. The new core they're developing is from AFTER chairelli was rightfully fired.

again, another Cup finals appearance, a President's trophy and in the playoffs most years..how many other teams can say this?

yeah..."not much" lol

and that new "core" consists of Pastrnak (Chia pick) Heinen (Chia pick) Krug (Chia signing) and McAvoy (Gretzky pick)