Player Discussion TJ Oshie

[CapitalsCupReality]

Of course it's a success. Who's arguing otherwise?

And if we trade Oshie, do we lose that cup? No, so I don't see why people get offended when someone suggests trading him before the contracts turns bad or getting Seattle to take him.

Then why sweat years 4-8 when the deal was signed?

You take care of now with an eye on the future and you make tough business decisions when you have to.

I’m not against moving anyone not named Ovechkin if that’s what makes the franchise stronger down the road.

The angst over the Oshie deal when it was sign and even today is simply misguided fandom IMO.

 

[txpd]

Of course it's a success. Who's arguing otherwise?

And if we trade Oshie, do we lose that cup? No, so I don't see why people get offended when someone suggests trading him before the contracts turns bad or getting Seattle to take him.

Because, some of us would like them to win the Cup again next season and every season before the contract turns bad. Might be that he is an integral part of a cup run even after the contract goes bad. Like Orpik.

Remember, these players are people. Not just a sheet of analytics. Gonna have the same argument with Backstrom. Backstrom is going to stay. People are going to hate the contract. Oshie's impact on the overall team is greater than just his corsi

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Let’s just focus on winning game 6. That’s what this thread is for.

K?

Thanks in advance

We’re doing it for TJ! Thanks in arrears.

 

[895]

Then why sweat years 4-8 when the deal was signed?

You take care of now with an eye on the future and you make tough business decisions when you have to.

I’m not against moving anyone not named Ovechkin if that’s what makes the franchise stronger down the road.

The angst over the Oshie deal when it was sign and even today is simply misguided fandom IMO.

Because you can both win your cup AND not have a bad contract. The Oshie deal when signed was good because it let us win a cup. There's no reason we have to keep him on the team when the contracts turns bad.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Well...the debate has been about year 1 and 2 and 3. I think this is the disconnect the bad contract don't do it people have. The choice is would you rather make runs at more cups because that player brings something not replaceable or would you rather let him go and do without?

Its the Brooks Orpik argument. Orpik was worth the overpay in his last season all day and night. TJ Oshie has been worth the overpay in his last two seasons by what he has brought in the first two seasons. Players like Orpik and Oshie are NEVER an albatross. Its insulting to use that term.

They are trying to win NOW after having won last season. Like Orpik, I am perfectly comfortable with dealing with Oshie's contract when the times comes. Cross that bridge when we get to it. MacLellan has always handled these things well. I think ive seen people as recently as a month ago suggesting the Caps should trade Oshie in the off season. That is nuts.

Rack him Jim!

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Because you can both win your cup AND not have a bad contract. The Oshie deal when signed was good because it let us win a cup. There's no reason we have to keep him on the team when the contracts turns bad.

And very few, probably only the biggest 77 fans have said that. I haven’t seen anyone in this conversation saying to keep him if he suddenly can’t play hockey anymore.

This is like a weird obsessive issue for a few of you...

 

[Raikkonen]

Its a strange talk, Tex, we had a discussion how Oshie's style will lead to injuries which will render him less effective and now youre talking about his greatness and the doubters who were wrong... All the while oshie is injured and cant help

 

[Raikkonen]

Signing Oshie wasnt at question iirc, last time it was "oshie is trade candidate" that got discussion going

 

[Calicaps]

The argument is and always has been that the contract will be bad in the last few years.

There isn't a single Oshie hater on this board.

Why change other people's arguments to appear right?

This argument is dumb because who cares about the last few years? If that's the price of having him now and winning championships, then it's worth it. It's only gonna be bad if you focus on the next version of the Caps. But the time is now. The future will be whatever it will be and you worry about it then. Priorities.

 

[895]

This argument is dumb because who cares about the last few years? If that's the price of having him now and winning championships, then it's worth it. It's only gonna be bad if you focus on the next version of the Caps. But the time is now. The future will be whatever it will be and you worry about it then. Priorities.

But you can have him here now and still trade him later. There's no conflict.

 

[Calicaps]

But you can have him here now and still trade him later. There's no conflict.

Then the contract isn't bad. It's great now. Worth every penny, and tradeable later if needed.

 

[dylanmacarthur]

Its a strange talk, Tex, we had a discussion how Oshie's style will lead to injuries which will render him less effective and now youre talking about his greatness and the doubters who were wrong... All the while oshie is injured and cant help

To be fair, his style (which I admit lends itself to injuries) had nothing to do with the broken collarbone keeping him out now.

 

[g00n]

But you can have him here now and still trade him later. There's no conflict.

Then what's the problem?

 

[895]

Then what's the problem?

The longer you wait, the worse the contract gets and the more you need to sweeten it. GMBM's job is to find that sweet spot between needing Oshie for contending and not being stuck with an untradeable contract.

I simply don't understand why txpd is crowing like he was proven right about Oshie when no one has ever had a problem with the front half of the contract.

 

[Calicaps]

Here's the thing... IMO, anyone who thinks the Caps are going to reach the end of the Ovie-Backstrom era and just roll right into continued contention so long as they can unload Oshie for younger talent or whatever is kidding themselves. When 8 and 19 hang 'em up, the team will be lost in the wilderness for a while. It's inevitable. Oshie's contract will be absolutely irrelevant. Kuzy, Vrana, even Willy, won't be enough to stave that off. They may form the backbone of what comes next, but it's not going to be smooth because the team will have lost its identity. Building a new one will take time and if Oshie's still around then, he'll be one of those organizational vets that helps a team pick up the pieces. No one's gonna care if he's expensive and unproductive.

 

[artilector]

I don't have a problem with the Caps deciding to keep Oshie (or any other Cup-winning core guys) for sentimental reasons going forward, but hockey-wise, IMO he's firmly in the territory of "simply too great of an injury risk" given his contract.

On a human level, those are tough decisions.

I'm pretty much ok with trusting BMac's judgement here. He's shown a decent handle on trying to keep the group together but not at the cost of compromising long term future (see Orpik, Beagle).

 

[g00n]

The longer you wait, the worse the contract gets and the more you need to sweeten it. GMBM's job is to find that sweet spot between needing Oshie for contending and not being stuck with an untradeable contract.

I simply don't understand why txpd is crowing like he was proven right about Oshie when no one has ever had a problem with the front half of the contract.

I understand your complaint and your fear, but I don't see the point of worrying about it now. It seems like playing the fortuneteller game. How do you know when/if the contract is going to end up being bad? If you trade too early, and the return sucks, then what? How is that not also a fear?

Why even worry about something like this???

In general you will always appear to be overpaying for top players on a long term deal, especially early on, and at the end of the contract there is always risk which is why they WANT long term deals. If you don't pay that price you never retain or attract talent.

You have to hope they turn out to be a bargain later as the cap goes up and salaries continue to rise. You also have to hope you get plenty of value early so the last few years can be cost-averaged with the rest. You don't pay only for exactly what you need every single year like some kind of lunch menu.

 

[LesDiablesRouges]

Of course Oshie’s contract is too long - he wanted term and Caps wanted a lower $AAV so that they could keep their team together long-term. Both sides were okay with taking less money, for longer term. Oshie is still producing and while he’s had some injury issues, he’s only missed 37 RS games in four years with us. I’m sure the backend of the contract - once Oshie declines - won’t look great, but, the cap hit is very manageable and he could very well also decline at a far slower rate than many believe - his game doesn’t rely on speed.

This is not even accounting for the fact that there’s always a possibility he could retire, get traded, or chosen in the expansion draft.

For the next couple of years, I’m going to enjoy having Osh on our team, as he’s one of our best players, a great leader, and on a good cap hit.

 

[artilector]

Here's the thing... IMO, anyone who thinks the Caps are going to reach the end of the Ovie-Backstrom era and just roll right into continued contention so long as they can unload Oshie for younger talent or whatever is kidding themselves. When 8 and 19 hang 'em up, the team will be lost in the wilderness for a while. It's inevitable. Oshie's contract will be absolutely irrelevant. Kuzy, Vrana, even Willy, won't be enough to stave that off. They may form the backbone of what comes next, but it's not going to be smooth because the team will have lost its identity. Building a new one will take time and if Oshie's still around then, he'll be one of those organizational vets that helps a team pick up the pieces. No one's gonna care if he's expensive and unproductive.

Respectfully, that would be a bad attitude to take, IMO.

Yes, there's a chance to go into a tailspin after Ovi/Backstrom. But you don't just give up and get ready to curl up into the fetal position when that happens. Given the insane NHL parity, you can build strong teams even without generational stars (see Vegas). The last thing you want to do is get into the trap of paying veterans arbitrary money to provide "intangibles" -- when what you really need to keep contending is to do your best to compensate for loss of talent.

Besides, maybe Ovi/Backstrom play 'till they are 40, Thornton style. What you need then is a continuous infusion of youthful energy, as opposed to keeping all their pals from the old glory days.

 

[Calicaps]

Respectfully, that would be a bad attitude to take, IMO.

Yes, there's a chance to go into a tailspin after Ovi/Backstrom. But you don't just give up and get ready to curl up into the fetal position when that happens. Given the insane NHL parity, you can build strong teams even without generational stars (see Vegas). The last thing you want to do is get into the trap of paying veterans arbitrary money to provide "intangibles" -- when what you really need to keep contending is to do your best to compensate for loss of talent.

Besides, maybe Ovi/Backstrom play 'till they are 40, Thornton style. What you need then is a continuous infusion of youthful energy, as opposed to keeping all their pals from the old glory days.

Sure, continuous infusion of youth... and sure you can build a strong team without a generational star. But you cannot remove a generational talent who provides veteran leadership from a team without consequences. That's different than building a team from scratch. Keeping Oshie actually helps with the loss of identity in that instance.

 

[RandyHolt]

If we didn't have Ovi, Oshie would be hands down the heart and soul of this team. Willy would give him a good run, though.

 

[Raikkonen]

The Oshie deal was won when Caps won the cup.

He got his security, GMBM got a chance to have better roster short term. It worked.

Now there are 2 options: keep Oshie or trade him at some moment.

I was the one talking about how I'd trade TJ if he's getting worse and Vrana/Bura/Connolly were on the rise.

Now we don't see a big loss in play from Oshie and he's clearly still more important than some other wingers (most actually).

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Its a strange talk, Tex, we had a discussion how Oshie's style will lead to injuries which will render him less effective and now youre talking about his greatness and the doubters who were wrong... All the while oshie is injured and cant help

Did his “style” lead to this injury?

Could of happened to anyone.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Here's the thing... IMO, anyone who thinks the Caps are going to reach the end of the Ovie-Backstrom era and just roll right into continued contention so long as they can unload Oshie for younger talent or whatever is kidding themselves. When 8 and 19 hang 'em up, the team will be lost in the wilderness for a while. It's inevitable. Oshie's contract will be absolutely irrelevant. Kuzy, Vrana, even Willy, won't be enough to stave that off. They may form the backbone of what comes next, but it's not going to be smooth because the team will have lost its identity. Building a new one will take time and if Oshie's still around then, he'll be one of those organizational vets that helps a team pick up the pieces. No one's gonna care if he's expensive and unproductive.

I was told 92 would prevent that regression.....I still laugh.

 

[Raikkonen]

Did his “style” lead to this injury?

Could of happened to anyone.

Well, to a degree, yes it did. Slow skating warrior type player having lots of friends wanting to give him some punishment back. That's where your probability of injury goes up.