Tribute Timothy Liljegren Discussion

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LeafsOHLRangers98

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He needs to be able to play on the bottom pairing atleast next year. He will be in his D+4 and was not a high pick. He should be either playing out of camp or make the team as the first call up and play 40-50 games. If he is in the same spot next year as right now( great in the AHL but has struggles playing on the bottom pairing next season) that is concerning.
He's at an age right now that most players enter the AHL at. If he goes back to the AHL next year he should dominate it like he did this year.

He'll be in the NHL. Not concerned at all.
 

saltming

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I'm turning over a new Leaf, I'm becoming a kinder caring kiwi :sarcasm:
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saltming

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No i hear you . Probably being a tad impatient .
But i have to emphasize -Bottom Pairing- . Theres a big difference between top 4 and bottom 2 .
If the likes of a Marincin (and we all love Marincin) is playing in that spot instead of Liljegren then thats very meh .
Probably best for a guy like Timmy whos shown potential to play 11-12 mins a night and with zero special teams and go through those nhl growing pains in the early months of oct/nov
I can't disagree with that at all. Just saying there is still ample time for that to happen.
We also have to remember he missed almost a full year due to mono.
On a side note Marincin is a serviceable 7th D and imo Liljegren is already at least as good and has way more skill and potential.
Perhaps the leafs are developing him slower because they've seen how he processes and adapts slowly?
He took some time to adjust to the AHL, so maybe feeding him bits of the NHL so he can process them and come back stronger?
Development is a non linear path, so maybe this is his?
Time will answer those questions
 

saltming

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No i hear you . Probably being a tad impatient .
But i have to emphasize -Bottom Pairing- . Theres a big difference between top 4 and bottom 2 .
If the likes of a Marincin (and we all love Marincin) is playing in that spot instead of Liljegren then thats very meh .
Probably best for a guy like Timmy whos shown potential to play 11-12 mins a night and with zero special teams and go through those nhl growing pains in the early months of oct/nov
I can't disagree with that at all. Just saying there is still ample time for that to happen.
We also have to remember he missed almost a full year due to mono.
On a side note Marincin is a serviceable 7th D and imo Liljegren is already at least as good and has way more skill and potential.
Perhaps the leafs are developing him slower because they've seen how he processes and adapts slowly?
He took some time to adjust to the AHL, so maybe feeding him bits of the NHL so he can process them and come back stronger?
Development is a non linear path, so maybe this is his?
Time will answer those questions
 

JT AM da real deal

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Oct 4, 2018
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Leafs nation is so odd sometimes.
The one thing I have never ever understood is why we try to eat our own? It is so stupid. To even start thinking or talking about it with a 20 year old kid who has shown amazing development playing against men in pro hockey is beyond the wildest of imaginations. It is one of main reasons why when you talk to hockey people vs media types you see such stark differences. Let me repeat defense is da hardest thing to learn in pro hockey. It is not about raw skill. and I can't even detail everything that goes into it because it would be a book. A winger can play pretty much right away with amazing skill. A centre takes a lot longer (3-4 years) (many top end 1st rounders get pushed too fast) to develop. A defender can take 6-8 years of learning/playing with vets to truly understand da position and then excel. All you have to do is look at Rielly. He has seen so much in his 25 years. But it was only this year where he really learned how to manage a forecheck under different formations with his skill sets.
 

ChazzMichaelMichaels

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Jul 10, 2014
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The one thing I have never ever understood is why we try to eat our own? It is so stupid. To even start thinking or talking about it with a 20 year old kid who has shown amazing development playing against men in pro hockey is beyond the wildest of imaginations. It is one of main reasons why when you talk to hockey people vs media types you see such stark differences. Let me repeat defense is da hardest thing to learn in pro hockey. It is not about raw skill. and I can't even detail everything that goes into it because it would be a book. A winger can play pretty much right away with amazing skill. A centre takes a lot longer (3-4 years) (many top end 1st rounders get pushed too fast) to develop. A defender can take 6-8 years of learning/playing with vets to truly understand da position and then excel. All you have to do is look at Rielly. He has seen so much in his 25 years. But it was only this year where he really learned how to manage a forecheck under different formations with his skill sets.

I find it really odd. Between having no patience with young players and always needing to pit our players against each other, hoping certain coaches/management fail to prove a narrative. It's just odd.

A 20 year old first rounder that has steadily improved along a fairly ideal and provable amount, has a good attitude, works hard, has managed to really adopt his game from even a couple years ago and plays at the position we desperately need at a time when our depth is our down-fall and expansion right around the corner (that he's exempt from). Yup, we need to trade him. I could see a scenario (I don't think it's likely) that he does start on the Marlies next season and that's just fine. I remember really wanting the Leafs to try for Ryan Pulock as he was a few years older than Liljegren is now and was still in the AHL, I bet the Islanders are quite happy they held onto him.
 

Pyromaniac

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May 29, 2012
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Leafs nation is so odd sometimes.
I think its our history of making terrible shortsighted trades like Boyes + 1st for Owen Nolan, Steen for Stempniak, Rask for Raycroft. A 1st for Toskala. 2 1sts and a 2nd for Kessel. Some posters are just shell-shocked into believing this is how hockey teams should operate, you aren't allowed to look beyond your nose.
 

mapleleaf979

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Jan 14, 2012
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I find it really odd. Between having no patience with young players and always needing to pit our players against each other, hoping certain coaches/management fail to prove a narrative. It's just odd.

A 20 year old first rounder that has steadily improved along a fairly ideal and provable amount, has a good attitude, works hard, has managed to really adopt his game from even a couple years ago and plays at the position we desperately need at a time when our depth is our down-fall and expansion right around the corner (that he's exempt from). Yup, we need to trade him. I could see a scenario (I don't think it's likely) that he does start on the Marlies next season and that's just fine. I remember really wanting the Leafs to try for Ryan Pulock as he was a few years older than Liljegren is now and was still in the AHL, I bet the Islanders are quite happy they held onto him.

Liljegren did not steadily improve in his first 2 years. It was up, down and sideways. Enter this year, his 3rd year with the Leafs, he showed up at camp and the game was chaotic. Liljegren had a poor camp but then went to the AHL and had his best year yet which kind of surprised me given what he looked like at camp. His callup for 11 games was very average. Liljegren has it tough next year. I cant see Holl, Liljegren, Dermott on the right side next year. Reilly, Muzzin and Sandin on the left. I dont know what will happen because the Leafs need to sign an RD to play with Reilly.
 

Funk21

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Mar 6, 2013
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His call up was average because he was saddled with Marincin as a partner most of the time. Marincin is a joke of a D man. Bad plays, pinches, and passes. It didn’t help that his leash gets pulled every five seconds while Marincin can make mistake after mistake and isn’t called out or benched.

He is a 20 year old D man. He had mono his draft year. It’s hard enough to just be a teenager with Mono (had a buddy get it) let alone trying to play elite level sports. Following year he gets a really bad high ankle sprain. Again likely worse than most injuries especially for a hockey player. He needs to be given 12-16 mins a night on our third pairing and coached up. The issue is we have another rookie on our third pairing. Ideally I would pair him with Muzzin. He has shown he can play, allow him to gain some confidence, his D is getting stronger and his skating is fantastic. Will his offensive game show up, it will once he starts to play his game although I don’t expect too much. He will not be the second coming of Karlsson. He will likely be a 25-30 point PMD D man.
 
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Northernguy10

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May 26, 2013
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I find it really odd. Between having no patience with young players and always needing to pit our players against each other, hoping certain coaches/management fail to prove a narrative. It's just odd.

A 20 year old first rounder that has steadily improved along a fairly ideal and provable amount, has a good attitude, works hard, has managed to really adopt his game from even a couple years ago and plays at the position we desperately need at a time when our depth is our down-fall and expansion right around the corner (that he's exempt from). Yup, we need to trade him. I could see a scenario (I don't think it's likely) that he does start on the Marlies next season and that's just fine. I remember really wanting the Leafs to try for Ryan Pulock as he was a few years older than Liljegren is now and was still in the AHL, I bet the Islanders are quite happy they held onto him.
Your first paragraph has summed up the traits of the few (percentage-wise) chronically negative posters in here quite nicely. This doesn't mean that there can't be criticism of the team but there's an obvious difference between debate/discussion and chronic bashing.
 

Knies iT

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Liljegren did not steadily improve in his first 2 years. It was up, down and sideways. Enter this year, his 3rd year with the Leafs, he showed up at camp and the game was chaotic. Liljegren had a poor camp but then went to the AHL and had his best year yet which kind of surprised me given what he looked like at camp. His callup for 11 games was very average. Liljegren has it tough next year. I cant see Holl, Liljegren, Dermott on the right side next year. Reilly, Muzzin and Sandin on the left. I dont know what will happen because the Leafs need to sign an RD to play with Reilly.
At the AHL level, his growth has been steadily linear since returning from his high ankle sprain 1.5+ seasons ago. Top pairing D down the stretch, MVP caliber playoffs, and then an all-star season this year with an extended call-up.
 

JT AM da real deal

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His call up was average because he was saddled with Marincin as a partner most of the time. Marincin is a joke of a D man. Bad plays, pinches, and passes. It didn’t help that his leash gets pulled every five seconds while Marincin can make mistake after mistake and isn’t called out or benched.

He is a 20 year old D man. He had mono his draft year. It’s hard enough to just be a teenager with Mono (had a buddy get it) let alone trying to play elite level sports. Following year he gets a really bad high ankle sprain. Again likely worse than most injuries especially for a hockey player. He needs to be given 12-16 mins a night on our third pairing and coached up. The issue is we have another rookie on our third pairing. Ideally I would pair him with Muzzin. He has shown he can play, allow him to gain some confidence, his D is getting stronger and his skating is fantastic. Will his offensive game show up, it will once he starts to play his game although I don’t expect too much. He will not be the second coming of Karlsson. He will likely be a 25-30 point PMD D man.
We have done a complete CR*P job of managing our young D. It is much harder with CAP system no doubt but I hope you will see us better manage them going forward.

Marty is not an NHLer. He can play in AHL where game moves slower and he has more time and he is fine. Anyone who plays with him is screwed.

Same as when Sandin went with Barrie he looked like dog sh*t.

It is critical that our young defenders like Dermy, Sandin and Lily are much better managed with vet guys who can train them properly. Unfortunately Muzzy can't do it for all 3 of those guys. My guess is you will see dermy with Muzzy next year. and Sandin with Holl. What might work at some point is start working Lily with Rielly - i know people may not get it right now but over time I could see it. I think Dubie will bring in a defensive minded right handed vet defender next season to play with Rielly but over time look for Lily to take that spot.

Lily is better than you think. It is too early to know. I personally think anyone of Dermy, Sandin and Lily could be a real force in the NHL in next 5 years. But give all 3 a chance and one or two will emerge. Most here think it will be Sandin and I do too BUT based on my experience no one can tell for sure. It could be Dermy or Lily too.
 

kb

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Aug 28, 2009
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We have done a complete CR*P job of managing our young D. It is much harder with CAP system no doubt but I hope you will see us better manage them going forward.

Marty is not an NHLer. He can play in AHL where game moves slower and he has more time and he is fine. Anyone who plays with him is screwed.

Same as when Sandin went with Barrie he looked like dog sh*t.

It is critical that our young defenders like Dermy, Sandin and Lily are much better managed with vet guys who can train them properly. Unfortunately Muzzy can't do it for all 3 of those guys. My guess is you will see dermy with Muzzy next year. and Sandin with Holl. What might work at some point is start working Lily with Rielly - i know people may not get it right now but over time I could see it. I think Dubie will bring in a defensive minded right handed vet defender next season to play with Rielly but over time look for Lily to take that spot.

Lily is better than you think. It is too early to know. I personally think anyone of Dermy, Sandin and Lily could be a real force in the NHL in next 5 years. But give all 3 a chance and one or two will emerge. Most here think it will be Sandin and I do too BUT based on my experience no one can tell for sure. It could be Dermy or Lily too.
I would sit Liljegren down and make him watch hours and hours of Stralman in his prime. That needs to be his game.
 
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JT AM da real deal

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I think calling his play "average" was just as egregious. Out of 258 defensemen with at least 100 minutes played, he was 258th in xGF%. And those were easy sheltered minutes
Best not to get caught up in early stats for the young kid defenders. At every level you jump in hockey there is a period of time it takes to adjust to speed and power of game. We used to say year 1 of da jump was never indicative of da player. In year 2 assuming they get da right vet partner then they start to go about da learning process. and some guys can look like cr*p in year 1 and turn into great players too over a few years. more important are a guys training habits, his ability to want to learn, his smarts, his skills and his want to be better. Throwing numbers around either way in first year are virtually meaningless.
 

biotk

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I think calling his play "average" was just as egregious. Out of 258 defensemen with at least 100 minutes played, he was 258th in xGF%. And those were easy sheltered minutes

Well yes, my assessment of his play was that it was fairly poor overall, but people will lose their minds about that so I don't bother with that any longer. Playing only 9 minutes with Marincin is an objective fact.

Marincin is not a good partner for Liljegren (or Sandin) entering the league. Perhaps neither was ready (my position that Sandin was - if they had done it right - and Liljegren was not), but regardless if you are not going to bring them into the league in a proper way then it is all a waste. And the Leafs have shown that they are not going to bring either into the league in the proper way. I feel sorry for them, but you can't chose the team who drafts you.

I don't have much confidence in advanced stats for D, but yes, his numbers are very low - and the general expectation - played out time after time throughout the league - is that a young, very sheltered D will have extremely good underlying numbers. However, people will just yell and stomp their feet and say that the numbers are meaningless even though these same people would feel that the numbers are the most important thing ever if they showed the opposite.

My personal view of Sandin and Liljegren for the 2019-20 season is that Leafs' management should be absolutely ashamed of the pathetic way they brought those two into the league. Just embarrassing if, as I assume, this organization expects them to play decent roles in the future.

The Leafs' have never been good at developing young D into the NHL, but they seem to be trying to somehow get worse at it. If you are not going to play them much, or you don't think they are ready to play a decent role then send them down, and play the youngster with a partner who knows what the f*** is going on, who will allow them to play to their strengths and give some cover to their weaknesses while they improve those aspects of the game (they didn't do that with Dermott - and they have not been doing that with Sandin or Liljegren). Boqvist's partner was Keith, Hughes' partner was Tanev, Makar's partner while not incredibly experienced is massive and strong in the areas when Makar needs to improve. McAvoy has always played with Chara. And unsurprisingly each one of those players made remarkable progress over their first months in the NHL - like drinking from a fire hose. Neither Sandin or Liljegren have made any progress (and both stints Sandin looked worse each subsequent game) and Dermott didn't improve at all over his first 2 years in the league.

Those other players are playing for teams that are trying to turn them into the absolute best possible versions of themselves. Toronto is doing the opposite (and the same goes for Buffalo with Dahlin).

Just as an example comparing Toronto now to Toronto from 7 - 10 years ago - First 11 games (age is based on first game):
Rielly - 19 years 210 days - average time on ice: 18:03
Gardiner - 21 yrs 94 d - ATOI 17:55
Dermott - 21 yrs 15 d - ATOI 16:29
Sandin - 19 yrs 209 d - ATOI 13:38
Liljegren - 20 yrs 263 d - ATOI 10:18

That is bad.
 
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JT AM da real deal

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Well yes, my assessment of his play was that it was fairly poor overall, but people will lose their minds about that so I don't bother with that any longer. Playing only 9 minutes with Marincin is an objective fact.

Marincin is not a good partner for Liljegren (or Sandin) entering the league. Perhaps neither was ready (my position that Sandin was - if they had done it right - and Liljegren was not), but regardless if you are not going to bring them into the league in a proper way then it is all a waste. And the Leafs have shown that they are not going to bring either into the league in the proper way. I feel sorry for them, but you can't chose the team who drafts you.

I don't have much confidence in advanced stats for D, but yes, his numbers are very low - and the general expectation - played out time after time throughout the league - is that a young, very sheltered D will have extremely good underlying numbers. However, people will just yell and stomp their feet and say that the numbers are meaningless even though these same people would feel that the numbers are the most important thing ever if they showed the opposite.

My personal view of Sandin and Liljegren for the 2019-20 season is that Leafs' management should be absolutely ashamed of the pathetic way they brought those two into the league. Just embarrassing if, as I assume, this organization expects them to play decent roles in the future.

The Leafs' have never been good at developing young D into the NHL, but they seem to be trying to somehow get worse at it. If you are not going to play them much, or you don't think they are ready to play a decent role then send them down, and play the youngster with a partner who knows what the f*** is going on, who will allow them to play to their strengths and give some cover to their weaknesses while they improve those aspects of the game (they didn't do that with Dermott - and they have not been doing that with Sandin or Liljegren). Boqvist's partner was Keith, Hughes' partner was Tanev, Makar's partner while not incredibly experienced is massive and strong in the areas when Makar needs to improve. McAvoy has always played with Chara. And unsurprisingly each one of those players made remarkable progress over their first months in the NHL - like drinking from a fire hose. Neither Sandin or Liljegren have made any progress (and both stints Sandin looked worse each subsequent game) and Dermott didn't improve at all over his first 2 years in the league.

Those other players are playing for teams that are trying to turn them into the absolute best possible versions of themselves. Toronto is doing the opposite (and the same goes for Buffalo with Dahlin).

Just as an example comparing Toronto now to Toronto from 7 - 10 years ago - First 11 games (age is based on first game):
Rielly - 19 years 210 days - average time on ice: 18:03
Gardiner - 21 yrs 94 d - ATOI 17:55
Dermott - 21 yrs 15 d - ATOI 16:29
Sandin - 19 yrs 209 d - ATOI 13:38
Liljegren - 20 yrs 263 d - ATOI 10:18

That is bad.
Well stated. But our Leafs inability to develop defenders goes all da way back to Tim Horton. Well over 60 years ago. He is our last signed and developed top tier 2 way tough fast and mean defender we have had. That says more than anyone can write. And if you say well what about Salming yes he was top tier great but he was developed in Sweden playing 6 years pro before signing with our Leafs. and our rock solid early 90s defense was all traded for by Cliff. Bottom line we have da WORST record of developing defenders in entire NHL. No one else is even remotely close. That is why I said we were CR*P at it. It was a complete joke how Dermy, Sandin and Lily have been managed. It has to change. It justhas to.
 

Ziggdiezan

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Apr 10, 2015
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I think calling his play "average" was just as egregious. Out of 258 defensemen with at least 100 minutes played, he was 258th in xGF%. And those were easy sheltered minutes
He only played 11 games at an average of 10 mins per game. Dont think that sample size is nearly large enough to use a highly regressed based stat like xGF%.

He definitely didnt have the best showings but with how little he played the only real way to evaluate his NHL play is with the eye test.
 
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Ziggdiezan

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Apr 10, 2015
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Well yes, my assessment of his play was that it was fairly poor overall, but people will lose their minds about that so I don't bother with that any longer. Playing only 9 minutes with Marincin is an objective fact.

Marincin is not a good partner for Liljegren (or Sandin) entering the league. Perhaps neither was ready (my position that Sandin was - if they had done it right - and Liljegren was not), but regardless if you are not going to bring them into the league in a proper way then it is all a waste. And the Leafs have shown that they are not going to bring either into the league in the proper way. I feel sorry for them, but you can't chose the team who drafts you.

I don't have much confidence in advanced stats for D, but yes, his numbers are very low - and the general expectation - played out time after time throughout the league - is that a young, very sheltered D will have extremely good underlying numbers. However, people will just yell and stomp their feet and say that the numbers are meaningless even though these same people would feel that the numbers are the most important thing ever if they showed the opposite.

My personal view of Sandin and Liljegren for the 2019-20 season is that Leafs' management should be absolutely ashamed of the pathetic way they brought those two into the league. Just embarrassing if, as I assume, this organization expects them to play decent roles in the future.

The Leafs' have never been good at developing young D into the NHL, but they seem to be trying to somehow get worse at it. If you are not going to play them much, or you don't think they are ready to play a decent role then send them down, and play the youngster with a partner who knows what the f*** is going on, who will allow them to play to their strengths and give some cover to their weaknesses while they improve those aspects of the game (they didn't do that with Dermott - and they have not been doing that with Sandin or Liljegren). Boqvist's partner was Keith, Hughes' partner was Tanev, Makar's partner while not incredibly experienced is massive and strong in the areas when Makar needs to improve. McAvoy has always played with Chara. And unsurprisingly each one of those players made remarkable progress over their first months in the NHL - like drinking from a fire hose. Neither Sandin or Liljegren have made any progress (and both stints Sandin looked worse each subsequent game) and Dermott didn't improve at all over his first 2 years in the league.

Those other players are playing for teams that are trying to turn them into the absolute best possible versions of themselves. Toronto is doing the opposite (and the same goes for Buffalo with Dahlin).

Just as an example comparing Toronto now to Toronto from 7 - 10 years ago - First 11 games (age is based on first game):
Rielly - 19 years 210 days - average time on ice: 18:03
Gardiner - 21 yrs 94 d - ATOI 17:55
Dermott - 21 yrs 15 d - ATOI 16:29
Sandin - 19 yrs 209 d - ATOI 13:38
Liljegren - 20 yrs 263 d - ATOI 10:18

That is bad.
I think part of the reason that the leafs are having to play their young defenders such limited usage rather than keeping them in the AHL is because they need their ELC as the cap is so tight now. Also don't think using a top 5 pick like Rielly is the best example as top 5 picks usually hit the NHL at an earlier age and play more time. Same goes for guys like Hughes, Makar, Dahlin etc. Just a different tier of defenders to Sandin and Lily.

The leafs havent ever had a proper partner for Rielly (or even Gardiner for that matter) let alone for any of the young guys coming through. This is really all due to the cap constraints and it will be even more difficult to bring in proper partner for Lily and Sandin. I honestly think they will be playing together on the bottom pairing next year.
 
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