Online Series: Tiger King (Netflix)

[ArGarBarGar]

I admit that my experience of such things is mostly limited to movies like American Made, but isn't the idea that you transport the drugs alone and return alone? There wouldn't be anyone with him on the plane who could throw him out of it, and if someone had cooked up an excuse to tag along, he would've had a tricky time throwing the pilot out of one of the those cramped planes. He would've had to have also been a pilot who could fly and land the plane and, not just that, but return it safely to where it was usually parked (since none of his planes were missing). I would imagine that drug dealers would either just shoot him and steal the plane or crash it, instead.

I'm not sure that is 100% the case with all these. And I have no idea whether he would have been running drugs at the time or what, just that there is a lot of speculation around the people he associated with prior to his disappearance.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Isn't there a prevailing theory that her husband got involved in drug running (hence why he would turn the transponder off his jet) and when things went south the people he worked with threw him out of his plane?

I learned from The Staircase not to get too committed to a theory based on a documentary's portrayal of the evidence ("oh BTW here's a bunch of critical evidence we forgot to mention earlier, show over").

But, based on what's presented in the series, here's what I think very likely happened:

- Husband was into drug running. Carole is living the "wife of a drug dealer" life.

- Marriage breaks down. They both want to walk away, but they have a lot of dirt on each other. They start to take precautions by documenting abuse on both sides, ensuring an investigation if anything "happens".

- The plan is for husband to skip the country. Somehow the car shipment was involved -- maybe as a physical drug-running operation, maybe as a form of money laundering through assets. The idea is that the car shipment leaves Miami at the same time he takes a private plane to Costa Rica under radar. He would arrive Costa Rica with whatever those cars represent (cash or drugs) plus the real estate and resources that he's already squirreled away there. Carole walks away with his remaining assets and a good case for a summary judgment on divorce.

- Critically -- a paperwork snag halts the car shipment. Husband goes forward with the plan without realizing the cars aren't leaving Miami.

- Some time after he flies out over the Gulf, he disappears. Maybe the plane simply crashed, which is a very real possibility. Maybe he was ambushed. Or, perhaps most likely, he arrives in Costa Rica and finds out the cars aren't coming. At that point there's nowhere to run, and he's surrounded by people who make people disappear.

- Back home, Carole goes through the motions of losing her husband. But she knows the plan went wrong. At that point, what can she do? If she tells the authorities the truth she's implicated in federal crimes. So at some level, she actually DID lose her husband and simply moves on with her life as the one person who really knows what happened.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I learned from The Staircase not to get too committed to a theory based on a documentary's portrayal of the evidence ("oh BTW here's a bunch of critical evidence we forgot to mention earlier, show over").

"Making a Murderer" was notorious for this. It is a shame that a lot of "documentaries" go for the sensational story rather than properly demonstrating the necessary evidence and actually creating a compelling narrative around all of it.

 

[JJ68]

f*** him and his ilk

 

[LarKing]

Just finished this and while I enjoyed it I don’t really get all the hype it got. I mean it’s interesting watching a bunch of narcissistic assholes run zoos but I’m just surprised it got so big.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Just finished this and while I enjoyed it I don’t really get all the hype it got. I mean it’s interesting watching a bunch of narcissistic assholes run zoos but I’m just surprised it got so big.

If it wasn't for the shutdown, it wouldn't have been big IMO. That and social media herd mentality.

 

[LarKing]

If it wasn't for the shutdown, it wouldn't have been big IMO. That and social media herd mentality.

Yeah it certainly released at the perfect time. Much like bird box, social media carried its popularity.

 

[Le Barron de HF]

I learned from The Staircase not to get too committed to a theory based on a documentary's portrayal of the evidence ("oh BTW here's a bunch of critical evidence we forgot to mention earlier, show over").

But, based on what's presented in the series, here's what I think very likely happened:

- Husband was into drug running. Carole is living the "wife of a drug dealer" life.

- Marriage breaks down. They both want to walk away, but they have a lot of dirt on each other. They start to take precautions by documenting abuse on both sides, ensuring an investigation if anything "happens".

- The plan is for husband to skip the country. Somehow the car shipment was involved -- maybe as a physical drug-running operation, maybe as a form of money laundering through assets. The idea is that the car shipment leaves Miami at the same time he takes a private plane to Costa Rica under radar. He would arrive Costa Rica with whatever those cars represent (cash or drugs) plus the real estate and resources that he's already squirreled away there. Carole walks away with his remaining assets and a good case for a summary judgment on divorce.

- Critically -- a paperwork snag halts the car shipment. Husband goes forward with the plan without realizing the cars aren't leaving Miami.

- Some time after he flies out over the Gulf, he disappears. Maybe the plane simply crashed, which is a very real possibility. Maybe he was ambushed. Or, perhaps most likely, he arrives in Costa Rica and finds out the cars aren't coming. At that point there's nowhere to run, and he's surrounded by people who make people disappear.

- Back home, Carole goes through the motions of losing her husband. But she knows the plan went wrong. At that point, what can she do? If she tells the authorities the truth she's implicated in federal crimes. So at some level, she actually DID lose her husband and simply moves on with her life as the one person who really knows what happened.

Can you share me your thoughts/additional links on staircase? I'm curious after your post.

 

[chicagoskycam]

Just finished this and while I enjoyed it I don’t really get all the hype it got. I mean it’s interesting watching a bunch of narcissistic assholes run zoos but I’m just surprised it got so big.

It's not worth the amount of time invested in the series. It could have been cut down by a couple of episodes, like we knew he was in jail from the start so there was no big payoff in the end.

 

[chicagoskycam]

Can you share me your thoughts/additional links on staircase? I'm curious after your post.

The staircase was another doc that fell fairly flat to me.

 

[hoglund]

I watched the 1st episode and gave up, maybe it gets better, but I just don't get the popularity of this.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I watched the 1st episode and gave up, maybe it gets better, but I just don't get the popularity of this.

It doesn't, it's really just trash tv. If it wasn't for my wife, I would've done the same.

 

[Osprey]

I watched the 1st episode and gave up, maybe it gets better, but I just don't get the popularity of this.

It picks up starting with the 3rd episode. That said, if you were that disinterested, it's doubtful that you'd find it interesting even after it picks up.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

It doesn't, it's really just trash tv. If it wasn't for my wife, I would've done the same.

My wife and I tried watching this the other day; we made it through about fifteen minutes before turning it off and removing it from our queue. We're both cat people, and we just couldn't watch big cats treated like that. That's not even getting into to the people. Just one big NOPE over here. Saw the Honest Trailer. Confirmed we made the right decision for us.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Apparently a juror in his trial said there was a 2nd hit man attempt by Joe on Carole, and the juror was upset that the documentary left it out. More proof that this was trash.

 

[RandV]

I learned from The Staircase not to get too committed to a theory based on a documentary's portrayal of the evidence ("oh BTW here's a bunch of critical evidence we forgot to mention earlier, show over").

But, based on what's presented in the series, here's what I think very likely happened:

- Husband was into drug running. Carole is living the "wife of a drug dealer" life.

- Marriage breaks down. They both want to walk away, but they have a lot of dirt on each other. They start to take precautions by documenting abuse on both sides, ensuring an investigation if anything "happens".

- The plan is for husband to skip the country. Somehow the car shipment was involved -- maybe as a physical drug-running operation, maybe as a form of money laundering through assets. The idea is that the car shipment leaves Miami at the same time he takes a private plane to Costa Rica under radar. He would arrive Costa Rica with whatever those cars represent (cash or drugs) plus the real estate and resources that he's already squirreled away there. Carole walks away with his remaining assets and a good case for a summary judgment on divorce.

- Critically -- a paperwork snag halts the car shipment. Husband goes forward with the plan without realizing the cars aren't leaving Miami.

- Some time after he flies out over the Gulf, he disappears. Maybe the plane simply crashed, which is a very real possibility. Maybe he was ambushed. Or, perhaps most likely, he arrives in Costa Rica and finds out the cars aren't coming. At that point there's nowhere to run, and he's surrounded by people who make people disappear.

- Back home, Carole goes through the motions of losing her husband. But she knows the plan went wrong. At that point, what can she do? If she tells the authorities the truth she's implicated in federal crimes. So at some level, she actually DID lose her husband and simply moves on with her life as the one person who really knows what happened.

That makes a lot of sense, and one of the guys interviewed did say the last thing he said to him was something like 'if I can pull this off...'

While the show didn't present this angle and really made it seem like Carol murdered her husband, the one thing that left me skeptical is it isn't quite so easy to both murder someone and dispose of their body without a trace, unless you're a member of the mob or something. I'd think typically in a spousal murder at least the body usually gets found, especially in a high profile case.

Carol Baskins strikes me as someone who could have killed her soon to be ex-husband, but not someone who could commit the perfect crime - murder her husband without a trace. Makes much more sense that their wealth was drug related (seems a common trend for these people to own big cats) and her sketchiness is because she was implicit or knowledgeable in his dealings and would be criminally liable or lose the fortune if what was actually going on got found out.

Or what I think I'm going to settle on, it's only speculation but with help she could have set him up for a bad deal and then just let the bad guys from Central America take care of him. If it's involving the car shipment, her brother in the sheriffs department could have flagged it, and this could have been communicated through that strange late night meeting. Also with the knowledge he was going to be murdered she would know that she'd have to and could get away with going to the office and stealing the will documents when she did.

 

[hoyster]

Watched the interview episode yesterday...so many teeth

Otherwise pretty uneventful and unsurprising, but glad that it clarified what a POS Joe was.

Only thing that really got me was that Travis didn't attempt suicide and that it was an accident. That part in the series was really gut-wrenching and now it hit me again after hearing the story. Feel bad for the campaign manager and hope he gets some help now.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Can you share me your thoughts/additional links on staircase? I'm curious after your post.

I should say up front, I live very close to where the documentary took place. So my interest is naturally going to be a little higher than it would otherwise, just for the sake of catching local references.

To me, the big payoff of the Staircase is the immersion of being inside the case. From the technical trial aspects, down to the mundane everyday stuff. Certain details took me off guard. What it’s like to be coached as a witness in your own trial... what it’s like to have dinner the night before the verdict. It’s incredible the amount of access the documentary team had to every moment.

There’s also the immersion of being in a juror’s role. I’ve heard before that defense attorneys will hit the jury with bloody crime scene photos early and often, because it lessens the impact and allows room for doubt as the days and weeks drag on. The Staircase proved that principle to me. I was genuinely surprised to experience doubt, in what was such an obvious* case, as to whether Stevenson should be found guilty. I imagine that’s what jurors go through in situations like the OJ case where you just can’t believe the result.

My biggest criticism comes from a nagging sense that the documentary team went into the case with a story to tell, and they framed that story to a fault. The production team had almost unlimited access to the defense side, but only did formal interviews with the prosecution. The Stevensons aren’t very likeable people, but the series humanizes them as much as it can. There’s a sense that the story is being told mainly from one side, and that the story doesn’t work nearly as well if a French court-documentary crew doesn’t find police corruption in a small southern city.

And then there’s the stuff you find out after it’s over. As noted above, certain key facts are neglected until the end of the series or excluded entirely. One of those facts being that Stevenson pursued a romantic relationship with the editor (which she denies had any influence on her decisions... because we’re all idiots). And there are others which would be spoilers so I won’t describe them, but are fairly explosive revelations when you find out what was missing.

At the end of the day, I’d say it’s an above-average production and certainly not trash-TV like a lot of murder docs. Given that we’re all stuck at home anyway, I’d recommend watching 2-3 episodes and making a decision whether to watch the rest.

* It’s less obvious after you hear the Owl Theory. I’m not being sarcastic.

 

[JianYang]

I watched this after the hype it got.

I knew Joe Exotic was familiar, but it took me a couple episodes to remember that this guy ran for president in 2016.

Anybody who watches John Oliver will remember him, but I had no idea how much his life has changed since then.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Found it a little boring, didnt care for the zoo to zoo drama. Most documentaries ive watched in quarantine have been better, dont get the hype

 

[chicagoskycam]

Found it a little boring, didnt care for the zoo to zoo drama. Most documentaries ive watched in quarantine have been better, dont get the hype

It's interesting but far too long. They should not have started with Joe in jail and I feel like they gave up too much information early on, killed any suspense.

The memes and frequent references in comedy to this doc are what makes it great.

 

[SouthGeorge]

And then there’s the stuff you find out after it’s over. As noted above, certain key facts are neglected until the end of the series or excluded entirely. One of those facts being that Stevenson pursued a romantic relationship with the editor (which she denies had any influence on her decisions... because we’re all idiots). And there are others which would be spoilers so I won’t describe them, but are fairly explosive revelations when you find out what was missing.

At the end of the day, I’d say it’s an above-average production and certainly not trash-TV like a lot of murder docs. Given that we’re all stuck at home anyway, I’d recommend watching 2-3 episodes and making a decision whether to watch the rest.

* It’s less obvious after you hear the Owl Theory. I’m not being sarcastic.

What came out after? All I really found out about was the suspect and director having a relationship.

The owl theory seems crazy but the mark on her head did look like a talon. I don't think a fireplace poker could make those marks. They also did find owl feathers on her. If he pushed her down the stairs her head or body part would have gone thru the drywall. She went outside the front door to sneak a cig or something. Owl attacked. She runs inside. Stairs are right there and where all the blood was.

I know, I highly unlikely given everything we know. But I don't think it's too far fetched.

 

[tarheelhockey]

What came out after? All I really found out about was the suspect and director having a relationship.

The owl theory seems crazy but the mark on her head did look like a talon. I don't think a fireplace poker could make those marks. They also did find owl feathers on her. If he pushed her down the stairs her head or body part would have gone thru the drywall. She went outside the front door to sneak a cig or something. Owl attacked. She runs inside. Stairs are right there and where all the blood was.

I know, I highly unlikely given everything we know. But I don't think it's too far fetched.

Spoiler

The 3-minute “owl theory” video by Netflix, which isn’t part of the actual documentary, drops in that not only did they find feathers under her fingernails, but also bits of pine needle and a really substantial amount of her own hair (IIRC something like 25 strands in each hand). Those are crazy details to not mention after 13 episodes of meticulous detail about blood spatters and whatnot.

Technically it was mentioned, but not until closing arguments do we find out that Kathleen had a carotid contusion consistent with strangulation. Again that’s a crazy piece of evidence to just somehow not get around to mentioning.

The relationship between Peterson and the documentary editor was a huge and compromising detail left unrevealed, as was the book deal Peterson had pending if he were found not-guilty.

The book deal looks worse in the context that Peterson has said that his motivation for joining the military was to be able to leverage that experience into becoming a famous author. Which he did. Problem is, he has been proven to have lied about receiving not one but TWO Purple Hearts, and he explicitly said Kathleen never knew his “war injuries” came from a car accident. That pattern of deliberately experiencing a dramatic, violent situation and then lying about his role so he can make it into a book doesn’t look very good against a book deal for his wife’s murder.

David Rudolph‘s (the defense attorney) wife was a local TV reporter at the time. She directly contacted the jurors offering dinner and an interview, and did the same with members of Kathleen’s family, which was clearly over the line as a conflict of interest. This went somehow went completely unmentioned in a doc that focused largely on corruption of justice.

When you take Peterson’s book deal and Rudolf’s wife’s interference with the jury into consideration, the white-hot rage of Candice’s victim impact statement makes more sense. So it’s relevant to know that Candice directly referenced these events in her statement... and it was edited out... and guess who did that editing.

Remember the very nonchalant reference to one of the sons being busted for driving with a suspended license? Well, that’s kind of understating his relationship with ID fraud. He spent four years in the federal pen on terrorism charges for trying to blow up the main administration building at Duke. His defense was apparently that he was trying to distract the cops so he could steal equipment to... make fake IDs.

That’s just... a lot of information left out of a documentary that was so meticulous about other aspects of the situation. Not all of it bears directly on the verdict, but the way the situation is framed in the series changes when we find out the full story. All of the above is favorable to a sympathetic view of Michael.

The way you describe the owl theory is exactly what I think happened. Again, I live a very short distance from the scene of the documentary. Just a few days ago I woke up to the sound of one of these owls in my back yard. They are very much a presence around here, and they’re BIG and aggressive.

An owl attack not only makes sense of the shape of the wounds, but also the fact that her skull wasn’t damaged at all. All of the wounds were on the surface and she actually bled to death, which makes little sense for either a homicidal attack or an accidental fall with that level of violence. Likewise an owl attack makes absolute sense for why all of the wounds were on the crown of the head, which again is incredibly unlikely in any other version of events. Really the only thing that’s left ambiguous how so much blood ended up on the walls, but that’s a whole lot easier to theorize about than how her injuries could be consistent with a murder or a fall.

At face value I literally laughed at the idea of it being an owl, but at this point I actually do think it’s the best explanation for the evidence.

 

[jw2]

Nicholas Cage? Uh.

Did someone make a cast the Tiger King thread?