Thrashers, Yotes...what about the Panthers?

[ChompChomp]

All we ever heard about is the Thrashers and Coyotes, but never the Florida Panthers in terms of relocation. Why is that? The ownership Sunrise Sports and Entertainment, is and has been suffering massive losses from the Panthers, correct? Their attendance and TV ratings is at the bottom of the league, no?

Why isn't Sunrise trying to sell or move? Is it that they are using losses from the Panthers to offset gains from elsewhere for taxes??

I ask because with all the talk about ATL and PHX, the worst NHL market, IMHO, is South Florida, but yet there is no discussion of sale/relocation/etc. What gives?

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[GuelphMadHatter]

All we ever heard about is the Thrashers and Coyotes, but never the Florida Panthers in terms of relocation. Why is that? The ownership Sunrise Sports and Entertainment, is and has been suffering massive losses from the Panthers, correct? Their attendance and TV ratings is at the bottom of the league, no?

Why isn't Sunrise trying to sell or move? Is it that they are using losses from the Panthers to offset gains from elsewhere for taxes??

I ask because with all the talk about ATL and PHX, the worst NHL market, IMHO, is South Florida, but yet there is no discussion of sale/relocation/etc. What gives?

We might begin to hear more about them now that the Atlanta situation is resolved. That organization baffles me. They have had some amazing prospects over the years that have turned out to be bust, or end up being traded away. With the draft picks they've had in the last decade, they should be competing for the Cup right now. Their attendance I think averaged around 15,000 and was 80% full this season. That's pretty damn good considering this team has not made the playoffs since 2000, and has only really come close once since then.

 

[ChompChomp]

My bad, I guess you are right about attendance:
http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance

But from what I understand, TV ratings are horrible. Not just now with the Heat doing well, but consistently since 2000.

Even with that pretty decent attendance, but low TV ratings, I still have to imagine that Panthers ownership is taking massive losses. Maybe you are right, now that ATL is resolved we might hear more about South Florida.

 

[GuelphMadHatter]

My bad, I guess you are right about attendance:
http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance

But from what I understand, TV ratings are horrible. Not just now with the Heat doing well, but consistently since 2000.

Even with that pretty decent attendance, but low TV ratings, I still have to imagine that Panthers ownership is taking massive losses. Maybe you are right, now that ATL is resolved we might hear more about South Florida.

Yeah I think their TV ratings were near the bottom, maybe even last place? They were such a success story in the mid 90's making the Finals, what 3 seasons in? And appeared to be moving towards being a possible contender after getting Bure and then having that great season in 1999-2000 (only to be swept by the eventual champions in the first round (Devils). Like I said, they've had countless opportunities to build this organization up, but fail time and time again. Not always their fault. Jay Bouwmeester didn't exactly turn out to be that "stud" defensemen everyone labeled him.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Attendance and TV ratings are not the main reasons why teams move.

 

[cbcwpg]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the Panthers were tied to a significant long term lease.

 

[KevFu]

I've always believed Miami was a worse hockey market than Atlanta or Phoenix.

 

[LTIR Trickery]

Its an interesting market simply for the fact that they have SO many canadian transplants there. Tickets are reasonable, its a nice area for a lot of players to be in, yet management has always been iffy and ownership has its own share of stupid little issues. If they got stable in both those fronts and could sniff the playoffs... they'd pull a TON of people from Ft. Lauderdale/Miami who are transplants and at least make a *little* money.

 

[danishh]

I'm not too up to date on my panthers business news, but I believe the ownership has real estate ties around the arena. That combined with revenue sharing probably makes their ownership of the team palatable.

Another thing is that the arena was publicly financed, so I'd assume there is a fairly restrictive lease. The only relocation option would likely come from bankruptcy.

 

[IceAce]

My bad, I guess you are right about attendance:
http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance

But from what I understand, TV ratings are horrible. Not just now with the Heat doing well, but consistently since 2000.

Research the Panthers last playoff appearance and I think you'll find a correlation there. It's South Florida, not some Northern outpost, people arent going to support a perpetual loser, there are a ton of other things to spend $ on. When the Panthers were winning, they filled a building for 6 straight years.

Even with that pretty decent attendance, but low TV ratings, I still have to imagine that Panthers ownership is taking massive losses. Maybe you are right, now that ATL is resolved we might hear more about South Florida.

What is your evidence of "massive losses?"

 

[IceAce]

I've always believed Miami was a worse hockey market than Atlanta or Phoenix.

Good thing the Panthers havent played in Miami since 1997.

 

[GuelphMadHatter]

Research the Panthers last playoff appearance and I think you'll find a correlation there. It's South Florida, not some Northern outpost, people arent going to support a perpetual loser, there are a ton of other things to spend $ on. When the Panthers were winning, they filled a building for 6 straight years.



What is your evidence of "massive losses?"

Whether you believe Forbes or not, they lost 9.6 million in 2009-2010, 29th in the league. Only the Coyotes lost more.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/31/hockey-valuations-10_rank.html

 

[GuelphMadHatter]

Good thing the Panthers havent played in Miami since 1997.

Miami-Fort Lauderdale is still the market they play in though.

I never thought about the lease. Oh well, if things get too dire they can pull the Balsille/Moyes special!

 

[LadyStanley]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the Panthers were tied to a significant long term lease.

IIRC, they own a bunch of land around the area, but not the building/land (which is owned by the county - Broward).


Development of the land was supposed to bring in the $$ to "support" the team.

 

[Buck Aki Berg]

Good thing the Panthers havent played in Miami since 1997.

Were you on your soapbox 15 years ago screaming "The Capitals don't play in WASHINGTON! They play in LANDOVER! SAY IT!"

For all anyone cares, the Panthers play in Miami.

 

[KevFu]

Good thing the Panthers havent played in Miami since 1997.

Were you on your soapbox 15 years ago screaming "The Capitals don't play in WASHINGTON! They play in LANDOVER! SAY IT!"

For all anyone cares, the Panthers play in Miami.

Ding. Winner.

The Islanders and Devils are in the New York City Metro Area; hence: New York. Not Uniondale or Newark, which are both accurate, but "New York" isn't inaccurate.

The Wild play in St. Paul, but the metro area covers both the Twin Cities.

And of course, by your logic, Phoenix doesn't have a team either, as they're in Glendale.

No one cares WHERE the arena's address is. It's about which TV market they are located in.

 

[Chief Ten Bears*]

Attendance and TV ratings are not the main reasons why teams move.

They are precursors...

You can sell out an arena, but if you are only charging a $40 average, and giving away free crap, you aren't going to make any money.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

They are precursors...

You can sell out an arena, but if you are only charging a $40 average, and giving away free crap, you aren't going to make any money.

They are indicators that a franchise is in trouble.

But just because a franchise is in trouble does not mean it is going to move...

EDIT: Also, I put that because the OP cannot seem to think of another reason why the Panthers should move.

 

[Jumptheshark]

My bad, I guess you are right about attendance:
http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance

But from what I understand, TV ratings are horrible. Not just now with the Heat doing well, but consistently since 2000.

Even with that pretty decent attendance, but low TV ratings, I still have to imagine that Panthers ownership is taking massive losses. Maybe you are right, now that ATL is resolved we might hear more about South Florida.

panthers give away a lot of tickets via places like Miami sub and other places where if you spend something like five bucks you can get free tickets--went to a lot of games I did not pay have to pay for when I lived in ft lauderdale--I think the NHL will put up a bigger fight in ft lauderdale then atanta because TB can draw and the canes and preds can draw

 

[Mit Yarrum]

Ding. Winner.

The Islanders and Devils are in the New York City Metro Area; hence: New York. Not Uniondale or Newark, which are both accurate, but "New York" isn't inaccurate.

The Wild play in St. Paul, but the metro area covers both the Twin Cities.

And of course, by your logic, Phoenix doesn't have a team either, as they're in Glendale.

No one cares WHERE the arena's address is. It's about which TV market they are located in.

The fact that they are up in Broward isn't as trivial as you guys make it out to be.

I love that the BAC is in Sunrise, but if I lived in Miami, I'd maybe catch 2 games per year.

The Florida Panthers are not a Miami team. We may be in that "market", but I've never met anyone who considers them the Miami hockey team.

They are the Broward County Panthers in reality. Which, IMO, is one of their biggest problems. Second only to mismanagement of players.

 

[GuelphMadHatter]

They are the Broward County Panthers in reality. Which, IMO, is one of their biggest problems. Second only to mismanagement of players.

Is there council in the business of subsidizing sports franchises too?

Sounds like the onwership currently is more stable than the Moyes situation, but the contexts are eerily similar. Long term lease with an area in a suburb of the t.v. market. Huge losses, very little on-ice success for the majority of the franchise's life....

I wouldn't be surprised if once Gary does get out of the Phoenix mess if they aren't right back where they started with this franchise or one of the other ones in dire straits.

 

[Steve Passless*]

If the Florida Panthers filed for bankruptcy, they'd probably sponsor it.

 

[krudmonk]

Were you on your soapbox 15 years ago screaming "The Capitals don't play in WASHINGTON! They play in LANDOVER! SAY IT!"

For all anyone cares, the Panthers play in Miami.

Ft Lauderdale has a distinct civic identity, which is why they are "Florida" and not "Miami."

Save your anger for real matters.

 

[KevFu]

The fact that they are up in Broward isn't as trivial as you guys make it out to be.

I love that the BAC is in Sunrise, but if I lived in Miami, I'd maybe catch 2 games per year.

The Florida Panthers are not a Miami team. We may be in that "market", but I've never met anyone who considers them the Miami hockey team.

They are the Broward County Panthers in reality. Which, IMO, is one of their biggest problems. Second only to mismanagement of players.

I agree those are valid concerns for the franchise...
However, it is trivial in terms of "not worth nitpicking about because someone says Miami in reference to their market."

 

[Mit Yarrum]

I agree those are valid concerns for the franchise...
However, it is trivial in terms of "not worth nitpicking about because someone says Miami in reference to their market."

I would say that depends on the argument.

If you're going to say "Look how they're doing in a big city like Miami!" you'd have the wrong impression of the area and the team.