Thoughts on the Calgary Flames?

[Da McBomb]

Laughable that you would include the Oilers with the Ducks. The Ducks are the class of the division. Until Edmonton actually gets decent depth in their forward ranks and some semblance of defensive depth (hint: Russell in the top 4 is not it, and Larsson as good as he is on defence can't put up points, so is no more than a #3), the Oilers won't be challenging for the cup any time soon. It is the Talbot and McDavid show in Edmonton. Nothing less, nothing more. Nice try to try and sneak your team up there though.

As for the Flames, nobody really knows what this season brings. If Smith does well, so do the Flames. Bennett taking a big step would be massive for this team. There is a lot of depth on the forward ranks,

Congrats, you swept the Flames last season. It's a new team, new season. We'll see how it goes in the upcoming season. I would not be surprised to see the Flames finish better than the Oilers. I'm not sold on the oilers depth or defense

You mean the "overplaying McDavid and Talbot show" had the Oilers 2 points back of the "cruising through the regular season" Ducks.

why do so many Flame fans keep bringing up that the Oilers lack depth upfront? Is it because McDavid and Draisaitl are so damn good that you guys think we just rely on those two players and Talbot?

For comparison sake, lets compare the forward depth of the Flames and Oilers from last year, not including the top 2 players from each team (which the Oilers blow the Flames away):

Flames:
Backlund - 53
Tkachuk - 48
Frolik - 44
Versteeg - 37
Bennett - 26
Ferland - 25
TOTAL: 233


Oilers:
Maroon - 42
RNH - 43
Lucic - 50
Eberle - 51 --> Strome - 30, Jokinen - 28
Letestu - 35
Kassian - 24
TOTAL: 245

So the Oilers depth outproduced the Flames depth, no? The so called 'best second line in the NHL (3M line)' that so many Flame fans keep hyping up produced just the same amount as the Oilers second line. So where is this argument that the Oilers lack forward depth come from? And then when you compare the physicality of the teams, that is so much in the Oilers favour as well. Sure Flame fans can argue that the Flames defensive group is better and deeper than the Oilers.. but to suggest that their forward group is better and deeper than the Oilers is quite laughable.

 

[Sol]

Cmon.. I think it's pretty obvious Edmonton is much better than the Flames.

 

[Akrapovince]

why do so many Flame fans keep bringing up that the Oilers lack depth upfront? Is it because McDavid and Draisaitl are so damn good that you guys think we just rely on those two players and Talbot?

For comparison sake, lets compare the forward depth of the Flames and Oilers from last year, not including the top 2 players from each team (which the Oilers blow the Flames away):

Flames:
Backlund - 53
Tkachuk - 48
Frolik - 44
Versteeg - 37
Bennett - 26
Ferland - 25
TOTAL: 233


Oilers:
Maroon - 42
RNH - 43
Lucic - 50
Eberle - 51 --> Strome - 30, Jokinen - 28
Letestu - 35
Kassian - 24
TOTAL: 245

So the Oilers depth outproduced the Flames depth, no? The so called 'best second line in the NHL (3M line)' that so many Flame fans keep hyping up produced just the same amount as the Oilers second line. So where is this argument that the Oilers lack forward depth come from? And then when you compare the physicality of the teams, that is so much in the Oilers favour as well. Sure Flame fans can argue that the Flames defensive group is better and deeper than the Oilers.. but to suggest that their forward group is better and deeper than the Oilers is quite laughable.

Kassian is due for a 15/20 season as well. So much skill in that guy,

wish he hasn't adopted his role so much, could be a great top 9 skill forward with grit.

 

[NeutralFan88]

why do so many Flame fans keep bringing up that the Oilers lack depth upfront? Is it because McDavid and Draisaitl are so damn good that you guys think we just rely on those two players and Talbot?

For comparison sake, lets compare the forward depth of the Flames and Oilers from last year, not including the top 2 players from each team (which the Oilers blow the Flames away):

Flames:
Backlund - 53
Tkachuk - 48
Frolik - 44
Versteeg - 37
Bennett - 26
Ferland - 25
TOTAL: 233


Oilers:
Maroon - 42
RNH - 43
Lucic - 50
Eberle - 51 --> Strome - 30, Jokinen - 28
Letestu - 35
Kassian - 24
TOTAL: 245

So the Oilers depth outproduced the Flames depth, no? The so called 'best second line in the NHL (3M line)' that so many Flame fans keep hyping up produced just the same amount as the Oilers second line. So where is this argument that the Oilers lack forward depth come from? And then when you compare the physicality of the teams, that is so much in the Oilers favour as well. Sure Flame fans can argue that the Flames defensive group is better and deeper than the Oilers.. but to suggest that their forward group is better and deeper than the Oilers is quite laughable.

* Drops Mic

 

[Bizz]

They got swept by a mediocre Anaheim team last season.

They are regressing. Bubble team at best.

 

[CraigsList]

They got swept by a mediocre Anaheim team last season.

They are regressing. Bubble team at best.

You sure you aren't talking about your team?

At least we'll make the playoffs.

 

[JurassicTunga]

why do so many Flame fans keep bringing up that the Oilers lack depth upfront? Is it because McDavid and Draisaitl are so damn good that you guys think we just rely on those two players and Talbot?

For comparison sake, lets compare the forward depth of the Flames and Oilers from last year, not including the top 2 players from each team (which the Oilers blow the Flames away):

Flames:
Backlund - 53
Tkachuk - 48
Frolik - 44
Versteeg - 37
Bennett - 26
Ferland - 25
TOTAL: 233


Oilers:
Maroon - 42
RNH - 43
Lucic - 50
Eberle - 51 --> Strome - 30, Jokinen - 28
Letestu - 35
Kassian - 24
TOTAL: 245

So the Oilers depth outproduced the Flames depth, no? The so called 'best second line in the NHL (3M line)' that so many Flame fans keep hyping up produced just the same amount as the Oilers second line. So where is this argument that the Oilers lack forward depth come from? And then when you compare the physicality of the teams, that is so much in the Oilers favour as well. Sure Flame fans can argue that the Flames defensive group is better and deeper than the Oilers.. but to suggest that their forward group is better and deeper than the Oilers is quite laughable.

I think it's because some of the Flames depth players(like Ferland, Bennett, Tkachuk) still have room to grow, while guys like Jokinen, Maroon, Lucic and Letestu aren't going to get much better and are likely on the down trend. Not to mention that the Flames second line is far and away better defensively lead by Backlund who finished 4th in Selke voting and is looking to get into that top 3 next season. Oilers do have Puljujarvi coming up though so that should help, but hockey is just so unpredictable.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

why do so many Flame fans keep bringing up that the Oilers lack depth upfront? Is it because McDavid and Draisaitl are so damn good that you guys think we just rely on those two players and Talbot?

Maybe it's because McDavid averaged over 21:00 TOI last season and no forward on Calgary needed to average 20 to make the playoffs.

For comparison sake, lets compare the forward depth of the Flames and Oilers from last year, not including the top 2 players from each team (which the Oilers blow the Flames away):

Flames:
Backlund - 53
Tkachuk - 48
Frolik - 44
Versteeg - 37
Bennett - 26
Ferland - 25
TOTAL: 233


Oilers:
Maroon - 42
RNH - 43
Lucic - 50
Eberle - 51 --> Strome - 30, Jokinen - 28
Letestu - 35
Kassian - 24
TOTAL: 245

So the Oilers depth outproduced the Flames depth, no?

Points don't tell us anything. They don't tell us that Maroon played on your top line most of the year, or that Lucic and Letestu played on your top PP unit most of the year. They don't tell us that Versteeg missed 14 games last year. They don't tell us that a forward may not get a secondary assist on a team with a more offensive blue line.

Here's what we know:

Goals Draisaitl and McDavid both got a point on: 42
Goals McDavid got a point on without Draisaitl getting a point: 58
Goals Draisaitl got a point on without McDavid getting a point: 35

So that's a total of 135 goals created by your top two. Oilers scored 247 goals. That means without your big two getting a point, you scored 112 goals.


Goals Gaudeau and Monahan both got a point on: 35
Goals Gaudreau got a point on without Monahan getting a point: 26
Goals Monahan got a point on without Gaudreau getting a point: 23

That's 84 goals created by our top two. Flames scored 226 goals. That means without our big two getting a point, we scored 142 goals. That's 30 more goals than the Oilers.

And considering Monahan played half of last year with a bad back and Gaudreau played half of last year with Chiasson going offside every shift, our top line will probably get back to producing like they did the year before. I'm not pulling this out of my ass here.

In 2015-16:

Goals Gaudeau and Monahan both got a point on: 38
Goals Gaudreau got a point on without Monahan getting a point: 40
Goals Monahan got a point on without Gaudreau getting a point: 25

That was 103 goals between those two. Flames scored 231 goals. So that was 128 goals scored by everybody else.

In 2014-15:
Goals Gaudeau and Monahan both got a point on: 23
Goals Gaudreau got a point on without Monahan getting a point: 41
Goals Monahan got a point on without Gaudreau getting a point: 39

That was 103 goals produced between those two. Flames scored 241 goals. So that was 138 goals produced by everybody else.

Call me crazy but 103 goals two straight years from those two, and then 19 less goals? Sounds like an outlier season. One that was already corrected about when Ferland was added to the Gaudreau line, and Monahan finally got healthy.

For the last three seasons, our roster has averaged 136 goals without our big two point producers having a point. Which is 24 goals more than you guys got last year from not-Draisaitl/McDavid, and I'm not sure replacing Eberle with Strome made your depth any better, since Strome's career high is less points than Eberle scored last year. I guess we'll see though, on the ice.

 

[Bizz]

You sure you aren't talking about your team?

At least we'll make the playoffs.

You have Mike Smith and Eddie Lack as your goalies.

The Flames will be lucky to not be eliminated by January.

 

[Akrapovince]

Maybe it's because McDavid averaged over 21:00 TOI last season and no forward on Calgary needed to average 20 to make the playoffs.



Points don't tell us anything. They don't tell us that Maroon played on your top line most of the year, or that Lucic and Letestu played on your top PP unit most of the year. They don't tell us that Versteeg missed 14 games last year. They don't tell us that a forward may not get a secondary assist on a team with a more offensive blue line.

Here's what we know:

Goals Draisaitl and McDavid both got a point on: 42
Goals McDavid got a point on without Draisaitl getting a point: 58
Goals Draisaitl got a point on without McDavid getting a point: 35

So that's a total of 135 goals created by your top two. Oilers scored 247 goals. That means without your big two getting a point, you scored 112 goals.


Goals Gaudeau and Monahan both got a point on: 35
Goals Gaudreau got a point on without Monahan getting a point: 26
Goals Monahan got a point on without Gaudreau getting a point: 23

That's 84 goals created by our top two. Flames scored 226 goals. That means without our big two getting a point, we scored 142 goals. That's 30 more goals than the Oilers.

And considering Monahan played half of last year with a bad back and Gaudreau played half of last year with Chiasson going offside every shift, our top line will probably get back to producing like they did the year before. I'm not pulling this out of my ass here.

In 2015-16:

Goals Gaudeau and Monahan both got a point on: 38
Goals Gaudreau got a point on without Monahan getting a point: 40
Goals Monahan got a point on without Gaudreau getting a point: 25

That was 103 goals between those two. Flames scored 231 goals. So that was 128 goals scored by everybody else.

In 2014-15:
Goals Gaudeau and Monahan both got a point on: 23
Goals Gaudreau got a point on without Monahan getting a point: 41
Goals Monahan got a point on without Gaudreau getting a point: 39

That was 103 goals produced between those two. Flames scored 241 goals. So that was 138 goals produced by everybody else.

Call me crazy but 103 goals two straight years from those two, and then 19 less goals? Sounds like an outlier season. One that was already corrected about when Ferland was added to the Gaudreau line, and Monahan finally got healthy.

For the last three seasons, our roster has averaged 136 goals without our big two point producers having a point. Which is 24 goals more than you guys got last year from not-Draisaitl/McDavid, and I'm not sure replacing Eberle with Strome made your depth any better, since Strome's career high is less points than Eberle scored last year. I guess we'll see though, on the ice.

But isn't Draisatl and McDavid a part of what adds depth to our team though?

You have to look at the forward group as a whole in my opinion, and how it works together.

Just because 97/29 has more of an impact than Johnny Hockey and Money Hands,

doesn't mean our depth is worst. I don't see depth as "even scoring spread"

or point percentage per players total,

I see it as an all encompassing production unit, in where admittedly Flames produce more

by committee, I wouldn't say the Oilers are THAT far behind just because we have

two dominant players.

I'm not sure if I have the stats correct, but I'm sure Malkin & Crosby takes up the majority of

production on the pens, but to say they are not deep would be ludicrous.

(this last point about pens might be in void, too lazy to look up stats)

 

[Akrapovince]

I don't think I worded my explanation correctly actually,

I think this is what I mean't to say;

When both teams don't have their top two players, Calgary's forward group looks deeper.

But when the full line-up is dressed, the two definitely get a little closer.

I don't see the relevance of comparing teams with missing pieces like that.

Calgary's defense and ANY form of performance from Smith and Lack should be scary, though.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

I'm not sure if I have the stats correct, but I'm sure Malkin & Crosby takes up the majority of production on the pens, but to say they are not deep would be ludicrous.

That's an interesting point. Except one thing. Evgeni Malkin IS the Penguins' depth because he drives his own line.

Goals Crosby and Malkin both got a point on: 20
Goals Crosby got a point on without Malkin getting a point: 69
Goals Malkin got a point on without Crosby getting a point: 52
Games missed between Crosby and Malkin: 27

So you had 141 goals between Crosby and Malkin with 27 games missed between the two. That's a per 82 game pace of 169 goals. And neither Crosby or Malkin averaged as much TOI as Connor McDavid.

Or, Pittsburgh's top two players if healthy were worth 34 more goals than McDavid and Draisaitl. Which is a bigger gap than the gap between expecting 103 goals (Monahan/Gaudreau) and 135 goals (McDavid/Draisaitl).

 

[Akrapovince]

That's an interesting point. Except one thing. Evgeni Malkin IS the Penguins' depth because he drives his own line.

Goals Crosby and Malkin both got a point on: 20
Goals Crosby got a point on without Malkin getting a point: 69
Goals Malkin got a point on without Crosby getting a point: 52
Games missed between Crosby and Malkin: 27

So you had 141 goals between Crosby and Malkin with 27 games missed between the two. That's a per 82 game pace of 169 goals. And neither Crosby or Malkin averaged as much TOI as Connor McDavid.

Or, Pittsburgh's top two players if healthy were worth 34 more goals than McDavid and Draisaitl. Which is a bigger gap than the gap between expecting 103 goals (Monahan/Gaudreau) and 135 goals (McDavid/Draisaitl).

So basically the separating points between Oilers being a deep team and not is points share?

I might have missed the point, but if Draisatl and McDavid accounted for the same goal totals,

without sharing points on most or any of the goals, they would be considered a deeper team?

Interesting, I hope Draisatl gets a couple looks on his own line for most of the season if this is true.

 

[Oilers Propagandist]

You sure you aren't talking about your team?

At least we'll make the playoffs.

Flames barely got in and got demolished into a million pieces when they played the big boys in the playoffs. It's not something to be proud of to squeak in and get swept. Sj is a playoff team untill proven otherwise, great young players that can keep them from bottoming out.

 

[CraigsList]

Flames barely got in and got demolished into a million pieces when they played the big boys in the playoffs. It's not something to be proud of to squeak in and get swept. Sj is a playoff team untill proven otherwise, great young players that can keep them from bottoming out.

You going to look deeper into those 4 games? Just ask the Ducks' fans, we made them earn every win. It wasn't clear cut like everyone thinks. Not to mention we barely sqeaked in because we started off on a crappy start to the season.

SJ needs to rebuild. Or do a massive retool.

 

[Guido Sarducci]

They'll battle with San Jose for the 3rd Pacific spot. Anaheim and Edmonton are the class of that division.

I agree with half of your post. Anahiem and Edmonton will battle for first place, Calgary and San Jose fighting for third with Arizona as a possible darkhorse. I'm gonna predict a Battle of Alberta in round one where the Flames win in 5.

As for the other point, I guess it depends on the context of class. I don't hear anybody describe the Oilers as a classy organization. Maybe when they party in Calgary this year they could pay their bar tab?

Even though the Oilers aren't, you stay classy ChaoticOrange. You are my second favorite on HF.

 

[Akrapovince]

That's an interesting point. Except one thing. Evgeni Malkin IS the Penguins' depth because he drives his own line.

Goals Crosby and Malkin both got a point on: 20
Goals Crosby got a point on without Malkin getting a point: 69
Goals Malkin got a point on without Crosby getting a point: 52
Games missed between Crosby and Malkin: 27

So you had 141 goals between Crosby and Malkin with 27 games missed between the two. That's a per 82 game pace of 169 goals. And neither Crosby or Malkin averaged as much TOI as Connor McDavid.

Or, Pittsburgh's top two players if healthy were worth 34 more goals than McDavid and Draisaitl. Which is a bigger gap than the gap between expecting 103 goals (Monahan/Gaudreau) and 135 goals (McDavid/Draisaitl).

Also my apologies in my ignorance in math, but by using your mechanics to determine depth,

don't you have to use your point share to team goal total with every interacting player?

Example, not just McDavid and Draisatl, but McDavid and Maroon, Lucic and Draisatl, etc

as opposed to just using two forwards to determine the depth of the entire team?

Or is it just simply the fact two players shouldn't account for that many goals on a team?

 

[Akrapovince]

I agree with half of your post. Anahiem and Edmonton will battle for first place, Calgary and San Jose fighting for third with Arizona as a possible darkhorse. I'm gonna predict a Battle of Alberta in round one where the Flames win in 5.

As for the other point, I guess it depends on the context of class. I don't hear anybody describe the Oilers as a classy organization. Maybe when they party in Calgary this year they could pay their bar tab?

Even though the Oilers aren't, you stay classy ChaoticOrange. You are my second favorite on HF.

Is there a story somewhere in there about the Oilers dining and dashing while in Calgary??

 

[Guido Sarducci]

My thoughts as a Flames Fan:

-Giordano-Tkachuk-Backlund-Frolik-Hamilton... this five man unit could carry us to the playoffs single-handedly. That's how good they are.

- Special teams could be a strength. It took some time for everyone to adjust to the new coach, but the results were there when they did. After November 15th (or the one month mark of the season) our PP was 6th best and our PK was 6th best.

- I don't have a clue what to expect from goaltending but I like that there is flexibility for Tyler Parsons or David Rittich to come in and steal the net in the future if Smith falters, and I like that Smith is a puck mover.

= Gaudreau is due for a huge season if Micheal Ferland is on his wing all season. Those two along with Monahan had the kind of scoring line chemistry he's been missing since Hudler.

- Gulutzan has really toned down the stretch passing. I kind of miss it because it was crazy how many tape-to-tape passes Brodie, Wideman and Giordano could pull off. Hamonic and Hamilton are good defensemen but there's something special about the way we used to be able to stretch the ice that I miss.

-I Don't have a clue what to expect from Hamonic or Stone, they were not good last year but have been good in the past. I do like our top six defense with these two plus Brett Kulak, who I think will play a full rookie season. They all don't need to be great, just solid.

- I'm expecting TJ Brodie for a huge season. In a sample of 94 defensemen with 1200+ 5-on-5 minutes played last year only six had a worse PDO. You only need to watch him play to see how unlucky he was last year.

- Speaking of PDO, Sam Bennett is destined for a breakout season. In a sample of 207 forwards, only seven had a worse PDO than he did. And he was a 20 year old center last year.

-Mark Jankowski! I expect him to push for the Calder and the day he hits his 25th game, our rebuild will officially be over. And he is going to be a good one. He is the difference in our fortunes next year. What a stud. I think a Versteeg-Bennett-Jankowski or Bennett-Jankowski-Versteeg third line has potential to be the best 3rd line in the NHL.

-Matt Stajan. Expecting him to continue to be rock-solid as a 4C.

-Troy Brouwer... I just hope he shows a pulse next year and looks like a decent 3rd or 4th liner who can contribute on the PP and be a non-possession-anchor. That's all I ask. Terrible signing.

-Curtis Lazar - total wildcard. I like his potential and see him as a rushed prospect.

-The rest of our depth - Emile Poirier, Spencer Foo, Andrew Mangiapane, Oliver Kylington, Rasmus Andersson, Morgan Klimchuk, Hunter Shinkaruk, Ryan Lomberg, Daniel Pribyl, Freddie Hamilton, Tyler Wotherspoon - should be able to step in when necessary - some legitimate NHL prospects in this group looking to make the NHL.

Hi OvermanKingGainer,

Nice summary.

I'm seeing Stone and Hamonic differently than you. Two bright spots for me. Stone came in at the deadline last year and the Flames didn't lose for a month. Stone in, Wideman out saved Brodies season and saved the Flames season. No playoffs without Stone IMO.

One reason why the Flames D is never as good on the ice as they are on paper is how soft they can be. Putting a tough throwback style player like Hamonic will tie the group together nicely I'm hoping. Maybe the new Regehr?



I really like the Flames off season except for goaltending. Big wildcard. I'm thinking maybe a scenario where Smith plays like Smith but Lack comes in and saves the season kind of like Johnson last year.

I'm thinking Hathaway will be a pleasant surprise. Kulak, Wotherspoon, Jankowski and Stajan have a real shot at being on the opening night roster.

Gazdic will play a few games AND score a goal. Ferland will score 15 and crush bones. Tkchuck will sophmore jinx. Bennett will show small improvements. Lazar will be streaky. Gaudreau will be good, but not superstar good. Monahan will establish himself as the undisputed team MVP. Brodie is gonna struggle again.

As for the team, I think they will be up and down kind of like last year. Squeak into the wildcard and beat those classy Oilers in 5. And, (sorry mods)they will stay Honda Center cursed for another year.

 

[Guido Sarducci]

Is there a story somewhere in there about the Oilers dining and dashing while in Calgary??

It has happened twice. Allegedly.

 

[TheStroker]

It has happened twice. Allegedly.

Haha what?

 

[Calgareee]

http://habsrus.:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:.com/thread/14773/oilers-refuse-pay-bill

 

[JFHockey]

Wait a minute, so no Oiler fans are optimistic about the Flames chances next season?

*Loud gasp followed by the sound of a monocle falling into a champagne glass*

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

I think it's because some of the Flames depth players(like Ferland, Bennett, Tkachuk) still have room to grow, while guys like Jokinen, Maroon, Lucic and Letestu aren't going to get much better and are likely on the down trend. Not to mention that the Flames second line is far and away better defensively lead by Backlund who finished 4th in Selke voting and is looking to get into that top 3 next season. Oilers do have Puljujarvi coming up though so that should help, but hockey is just so unpredictable.

what about players like Caggulia? Slepyshev? Strome? along with Puljujarvi, there's plenty of room for these player to keep getting better

http://habsrus.:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:.com/thread/14773/oilers-refuse-pay-bill

member this?

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...lu-shots-alberta-inquiry-told/article7348492/

 

[Calgareee]

member this?

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...lu-shots-alberta-inquiry-told/article7348492/

Sure. At least they paid for them

But really. How often do professional athletes get preferential medical treatment? When was the last time you needed an MRI.