GDT: This Season's a Garden, Dig It: Devils @ Islanders, 7 PM, MSG+2

[Emperoreddy]

Ya I think pressuring the puck is what it's all about. Aggressive defending, with the covering fwd is the supporting aspect of it.

Non traditional for sure, and involves more moving parts, trying to be uptempo.

More complicated then it needs to be? Too dependant on proper personnel?

Perhaps on both counts, but why was it successful last year, while so unsuccessful this year?

I question if the current D is anywhere near fast enough to play this way effectively on multiple nights.

It also does seem to require the 100% buy in that we saw last year. Anyone drags their feet even a little and the house of cards falls apart.

Maybe with more soft talent they could get away with it more, but not this current team.

 

[MadDevil]

It does seem like there's a razor's edge between success and failure with this team. When everybody buys in, they look fine. When they don't, they look terrible. There's no middle ground where they're just a little off but still competitive.

 

[Emperoreddy]

It does seem like there's a razor's edge between success and failure with this team. When everybody buys in, they look fine. When they don't, they look terrible. There's no middle ground where they're just a little off but still competitive.

That is where better goaltending and some talent upgrades, especially on the back end, will help.

Still I wonder about the long term viability of playing this way. Can you actually compete and win a cup like this with a stacked team?

 

[MadDevil]

That is where better goaltending and some talent upgrades, especially on the back end, will help.

Still I wonder about the long term viability of playing this way. Can you actually compete and win a cup like this with a stacked team?

I don't think Hynes will be here when we start contending.

 

[Emperoreddy]

I don't think Hynes will be here when we start contending.

My prediction is we bounce back next year and make the playoffs again.

Then between this and next offseason Shero puts together a team via draft and trade that maybe can’t contend but should be taken seriously. We then underperform and Hynes gets the boot.

 

[Bleedred]

The team is not forced to give minutes to Greene or Schneider. The issue is lack of better options.

That's actually false. The team already has a few defensemen better than Greene, unless you mean other than them. And it's false to say the issue is lack of better options than Schneider. Have you seen him play this year? It's like watching Ron Tugnutt thinking he showed up to an alumni game before realizing he accidentally made it to a modern day NHL game against guys 20-30 years younger than him. We have better options than Schneider, one of them was called up a month ago. Even Kinkaid is probably a better option than Schneider is at this point.

 

[Bleedred]

Just now realized that Michael Dal Buste scored his first career goal last night.

I thought maybe he had one goal before this.

Gross.

 

[Bleedred]

I don't think Hynes will be here when we start contending.

I don't either.

People talk about the system this and the system that, but I was one of the few complaining about the system last year. Seemed like a Randy Carlyle or AV rush system, where we cashed in on opportunistic but few scoring chances/shots, then would hold the f*** on for dear life and hope shots hit the goalie. They were hitting the goalies more last year.

This year the goalies aren't facing as many shots, but a lot of times it's because we're put away pretty early and teams stop attacking. If we had better goaltending this year, maybe we play the hold on for dear life system and wind up still allowing a lot of goals anyway, just on more shots allowed.

 

[billingtons ghost]

If you don't think Blackwood is very likely at least better than Cory's cremated remains (the goalie you used to trash when he was actually still good) then I don't know what to tell you.
It's not remotely possible that Blackwood might be better than them?

Have you been watching him? He's made some pretty nice desperation saves. He's got a big body and plays with confidence. He's not as solid on his angles as Kinkaid is, and he has relatively the same glove.

I like the kid, I wish him well - and I'm terribly afraid that his confidence will be shot through within the next 10 games he plays and we won't see him again for a while. 15 goals against in his last 4, and I don't think any of them were particularly his fault save one.

It's the team, not the goalies. Look man, I've seen what a great goalie looks like. For years. On multiple teams.

Cory was never a great goalie - he always had too many holes in his game - but he was very good - even when he and the team were losing. Kinkaid's confidence made him the better goalie down the stretch last year.

Now, none of them have any confidence: and it is the defense's fault.

If you traded Cory to a team that played defense, who knows how good he'd really be at this point if he could regain a sliver of confidence. I doubt it is happening here. I know you like to think injuries made it night and day with him - but it isn't true. The only thing really injured was his head.

 

[Bleedred]

Have you been watching him? He's made some pretty nice desperation saves. He's got a big body and plays with confidence. He's not as solid on his angles as Kinkaid is, and he has relatively the same glove.

I like the kid, I wish him well - and I'm terribly afraid that his confidence will be shot through within the next 10 games he plays and we won't see him again for a while. 15 goals against in his last 4, and I don't think any of them were particularly his fault save one.

It's the team, not the goalies. Look man, I've seen what a great goalie looks like. For years. On multiple teams.

Cory was never a great goalie - he always had too many holes in his game - but he was very good - even when he and the team were losing. Kinkaid's confidence made him the better goalie down the stretch last year.

Now, none of them have any confidence: and it is the defense's fault.

If you traded Cory to a team that played defense, who knows how good he'd really be at this point if he could regain a sliver of confidence. I doubt it is happening here. I know you like to think injuries made it night and day with him - but it isn't true. The only thing really injured was his head.

I have been watching him play. He does get beaten short side a lot, but that mostly only happened in that Chicago game, which was the only bad game he played. He got beat on the short side 3 times clean that game and also allowed a goal after he turned the puck over. The way the shot went in was not stoppable, but you have to nail him for turning the puck over. I know you've done it to Cory before. He's been very good outside of that Chicago game.

I think if Cory is ever good again, it will be a very short term thing, not likely to sustain itself. I'd trade him for the 2012 version of Marty today if cloning were possible.

 

[billingtons ghost]

Lehner is good or at least no worse than average.

Greiss is a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get. One year it's .890%, next year it's .925%.

He's really no better than Kinkaid, outside of the fact that his best seasons have been better than Kinkaid's best.

...and one final post from me on this thread:

Greiss could have physically been an actual box of chocolates and won tonight against the Maple Leafs - he faced 19 shots and shut them out to move the Isles into first place. Seriously - a potted plant might have won.

Don't tell me it is a goalie renaissance on the Island. That team is playing well and whether or not it shows up in SV% doesn't really matter - because the quality of shots is held to a minimum.

 

[Bleedred]

...and one final post from me on this thread:

Greiss could have physically been an actual box of chocolates and won tonight against the Maple Leafs - he faced 19 shots and shut them out to move the Isles into first place. Seriously - a potted plant might have won.

Don't tell me it is a goalie renaissance on the Island. That team is playing well and whether or not it shows up in SV% doesn't really matter - because the quality of shots is held to a minimum.

If Greiss hadn't had a year like this before, I'd say it's more the team than anything, but Greiss wildly fluctuates so much.

He played awful on the Doug Weight team, but was usually average (and one very good year on the island and a pretty good year as a backup in Arizona) or a little above/a little below average before that.

He's not exactly having a career year yet, but Lehner is as of right now.

Holtby also had his worst year yet under Trotz, so I'm not exactly sure Trotz makes goalies play better. Hitchcock definitely used to.

 

[billingtons ghost]

I have been watching him play. He does get beaten short side a lot, but that mostly only happened in that Chicago game, which was the only bad game he played. He got beat on the short side 3 times clean that game and also allowed a goal after he turned the puck over. The way the shot went in was not stoppable, but you have to nail him for turning the puck over. I know you've done it to Cory before. He's been very good outside of that Chicago game.

I think if Cory is ever good again, it will be a very short term thing, not likely to sustain itself. I'd trade him for the 2012 version of Marty today if cloning were possible.

He turned the puck over, but it wasn't an egregious - 'I'm looking the wrong way and someone takes it' grenade handler one ala Cory. I threw it up the boards and didn't hustle back to the net as fast as he should have and it cost him. I agree. His puckhandling, however, in general has maybe been the best of our three goalies, and Kinky is pretty good. I think he was good in the Chicago game too - but not great. He's has some puckluck too with guys hitting him in the crest.

With Cory on the pine, it's impossible to tell. He might be Jacoby Ellsbury for all I know - but I thought, other than some really disgusting starts of games - he showed flashes of promise. The team just gave him no help. (I mean, 3 own goals, right?) and they've never really played well for him. Ever.

Given the right situation, I still think he could approach being every bit as effective as he once was.

 

[Bleedred]

He turned the puck over, but it wasn't an egregious - 'I'm looking the wrong way and someone takes it' grenade handler one ala Cory. I threw it up the boards and didn't hustle back to the net as fast as he should have and it cost him. I agree. His puckhandling, however, in general has maybe been the best of our three goalies, and Kinky is pretty good. I think he was good in the Chicago game too - but not great. He's has some puckluck too with guys hitting him in the crest.

With Cory on the pine, it's impossible to tell. He might be Jacoby Ellsbury for all I know - but I thought, other than some really disgusting starts of games - he showed flashes of promise. The team just gave him no help. (I mean, 3 own goals, right?) and they've never really played well for him. Ever.

Given the right situation, I still think he could approach being every bit as effective as he once was.

I saw no flashes of promise for Cory this year. The 3 own goals also erases the memory of the 2 softies that ended up in the net earlier that game. That's what gave him no margin for error that game. If the two junk goals didn't go in during the 1st period, those own goals wouldn't have been the difference in the game.

When a goalie starts declining like Schneider after multiple years, he rarely returns to form. Pekka Rinne is the only exception. Jimmy Howard has been able to do it a couple years.

Cam Ward (who is a bad example anyway, because he was never good, he just had 3 or 4 good years in the middle of his career, with 3 poor years to start his career and now 7 abysmal years since), Kari Lehtonen, Jimmy Howard, Pekka Rinne. Only one of those guys has come back with consistency. I would count Marty as part of this goalie regression, but he was old by the time he had this happen to him. These other goalies were all late 20's/just barely 30. Same thing looks like it could be happening to Carey Price (who's been good lately) and also Lundqvist to a much less extreme extent, but he's also got almost a half decade on those guys/those guys when they started to decline.

 

[Oneiro]

My prediction is we bounce back next year and make the playoffs again.

Then between this and next offseason Shero puts together a team via draft and trade that maybe can’t contend but should be taken seriously. We then underperform and Hynes gets the boot.

Yeah, I see this as the trajectory too. I've resigned myself to seeing the next few years under Hynes as the young guys learning how to be themselves at this level and how much they can stretch their talents. But being a serious team for a long time...I think that will be up to Shero and another coach.

 

[billingtons ghost]

If Greiss hadn't had a year like this before, I'd say it's more the team than anything, but Greiss wildly fluctuates so much.

He played awful on the Doug Weight team, but was usually average (and one very good year on the island and a pretty good year as a backup in Arizona) or a little above/a little below average before that.

He's not exactly having a career year yet, but Lehner is as of right now.

Holtby also had his worst year yet under Trotz, so I'm not exactly sure Trotz makes goalies play better. Hitchcock definitely used to.

Check out Greiss's stats though - if this isn't illustrative about how illusionary SV% and GAA are, then I don't know what is: In almost the same # of games, he gave up 63% more goals last year; and made 175 more saves, faced 120 more shots... If anything, he played better last year than he did this year - and he has the same record of wins and losses and only two more 'really bad starts'... The team has been vastly better in front of him. Last year, they gave up terrific chances. This year, they've limited the danger.

Goalie Age Tm Lg GP GS W L T/O GA SA SV SV %GAA SO MIN QS QS% RB S GA% S AA GAA

2017-18	32	NYI	NHL	27	25	13	8	2	95	879	784	.892	3.82	1	1492	9	.360	7	123	-17.85		3.0	0	0	0	0
2018-19	33	NYI	NHL	25	23	13	8	1	58	704	646	.918	2.62	1	1330	14	.609	5	90	6.63		4.6	0	0	0	2

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TFOOT] [/TFOOT]

 

[billingtons ghost]

, Kari Lehtonen, .

You make some good points - but the guy you mention above - is to me an example of a guy who ALWAYS was a very good goalie who got no support - and then suddenly seemed to blossom later. He was never bad - but the teams in front of him sure were.


Btw- it is always fun, Bleed. Thanks for the debate. Good stuff. We'll continue to battle a bit over what we're really seeing and we'll get to the bottom of it eventually.

Some day I'll buy you a beer in person at the cup clinching game.

 

[Bleedred]

Check out Greiss's stats though - if this isn't illustrative about how illusionary SV% and GAA are, then I don't know what is: In almost the same # of games, he gave up 63% more goals last year; and made 175 more saves, faced 120 more shots... If anything, he played better last year than he did this year - and he has the same record of wins and losses and only two more 'really bad starts'... The team has been vastly better in front of him. Last year, they gave up terrific chances. This year, they've limited the danger.

Goalie Age Tm Lg GP GS W L T/O GA SA SV SV %GAA SO MIN QS QS% RB S GA% S AA GAA

2017-18	32	NYI	NHL	27	25	13	8	2	95	879	784	.892	3.82	1	1492	9	.360	7	123	-17.85		3.0	0	0	0	0
2018-19	33	NYI	NHL	25	23	13	8	1	58	704	646	.918	2.62	1	1330	14	.609	5	90	6.63		4.6	0	0	0	2

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TFOOT] [/TFOOT]

I would definitely not say he was playing better last year than he was this year. Is it possible the Doug Weight system caused him to play worse? I'll say yes. I generally don't believe in system goalies, though there were plenty under Hitchcock. Almost every goalie had a career year under him, then turned to dust after he left and many who were already in the league before he coached them were worse before he got to them. Turek, Cechmanek, Esche, Mason (did resurrect later in his career for a few years), Elliott, Allen. All better with Hitch then before/and or after. Is it like that with Trotz? I don't tend to think so. Rinne had some poor years before Trotz was gone, then had one poor year after he left, but had great years with and without Trotz. Holtby had some good years before Trotz, but a poor one with him last year. Grubauer in short sample size is struggling post-Trotz, but was also good (in an almost equally short sample size) on the Caps before Trotz got there.

You make some good points - but the guy you mention above - is to me an example of a guy who ALWAYS was a very good goalie who got no support - and then suddenly seemed to blossom later. He was never bad - but the teams in front of him sure were.


Btw- it is always fun, Bleed. Thanks for the debate. Good stuff. We'll continue to battle a bit over what we're really seeing and we'll get to the bottom of it eventually.

Some day I'll buy you a beer in person at the cup clinching game.

Thanks man, I do sincerely appreciate it. Like I told @haak84, I always the debates with you guys. It does make things fun! It would be boring if we never had anything to argue about around here, right?