GDT: This Season's a Garden, Dig It: Devils @ Islanders, 7 PM, MSG+2

[billingtons ghost]

Their results are unsustainable. They should be one of the worst offenses in the league. Their defense isn't this good - they're getting great goaltending. We go through this every year.

That is COMPLETE garbage.

They went from the #30 defense in the league to #1 defense in the league. It is entirely Trotz's system and Lou's organization and the commitment and buy in from the players. All you have to do is see how Halak's GAA and SV% improved when he got away from Doug Weight's defense to know that it is entirely and completely coaching, belief in the system, belief in the organization and accountability. Greiss was a very good goalie in San Jose. He was under duress last year.

 

[billingtons ghost]

the islanders are decent this year, but they will not have a successful playoff run. the weaknesses in their lineup will be exposed in cataclysmic fashion by the second round, if they get that far.

they have one fewer player above 20 points than we do, and their leading scorer is a sophomore. they aren't any near complete.

they're where they're at largely because somehow lehner and greiss are playing the best hockey of their careers.

Totally true that they may not be successful in the playoffs and that on paper they aren't much better than we are.

Totally untrue that Lehner and Greiss are the reason.

The system and belief in the organization, belief in each other, and accountability are the difference. If/when more talent arrives, they will become a good team. They are still rebuilding - and I think we could be doing the same thing right now if we had the same direction they had. It sure ain't goaltending.

 

[Triumph]

The contracts Shero inherited are irrelevant. Cap space is not and has not been an issue. The team is not forced to give minutes to Greene or Schneider. The issue is lack of better options.

They're not irrelevant. The contracts have little to do with cap space. They are long-term contracts that were signed before he got here, and they are producing not a whole lot for ~$17M spent. Oh, and there's Cammalleri's buyout, which is also producing nothing.

Plus, I don't think it's reasonable to say that performances by Greene, Zajac, and Schneider are why the team is losing 4-1 to the Islanders. Schneider didn't play, and the rest of it was a team effort.

An individual game, no. A season where $17M is spent in this way? Yeah, I'd say that has a lot to do with why the Devils are where they are in the standings, especially given that they're also not spending up to the cap.

Aging / declining veterans are able to play with young kids - it does happen, and sometimes they even play well together. It's up to management to find the right mix - and to convince vets to take on the proper roles.

Absolutely - and part of the issue is that Shero hasn't been able to find adequate help for the defense.

 

[Triumph]

That is COMPLETE garbage.

They went from the #30 defense in the league to #1 defense in the league. It is entirely Trotz's system and Lou's organization and the commitment and buy in from the players. All you have to do is see how Halak's GAA and SV% improved when he got away from Doug Weight's defense to know that it is entirely and completely coaching, belief in the system, belief in the organization and accountability. Greiss was a very good goalie in San Jose. He was under duress last year.

Weight was a terrible coach and Trotz is a good one, you'll get no argument from me on that. The Islanders do not have the best defense in the league or anything close. They have an average defense being buoyed by unsustainable goaltending. More importantly, they have a below-average offense being sustained by the percentages. This doesn't last. It never lasts.

 

[billingtons ghost]

The Islanders have a "win now" coach. The Devils have a coach for a rebuild. Different coaches for different times.

I don't agree with this unless by 'win now' you just mean 'win' and 'rebuild' you mean 'lose, in utter chaos'.

I think the two teams are very very close in talent and ability on paper. I think the difference is all in the mindset, the defensive system and coaching.
I think the Isles are preaching 'Improve daily, steady progressions, build momentum... it's a process of doing things right'; and
winning is just a byproduct.

We started out last year that way, but some success got us cocky and we lost our way mid-year- and then some great individual efforts by guys having their best career years to-date got us to squeak into the playoffs.

We never had that mindset this season - it's been "we should be better than this!, skate harder, try higher-risk plays, do more" from the start, and there's been no commitment to the process of just improving - except by a couple of individuals who came back with improved games - Coleman and to some degree Wood and Zacha.

 

[billingtons ghost]

Weight was a terrible coach and Trotz is a good one, you'll get no argument from me on that. The Islanders do not have the best defense in the league or anything close. They have an average defense being buoyed by unsustainable goaltending.

I disagree completely. We had like 11 shots through two periods last night. That wasn't a fluke. They've been winning close games because their goaltenders know what to expect from their defensemen. Lehner is a guy who oscillates between being great behind teams that play some defense, to awful behind teams that don't. Greiss has always been a solid if mediocre goaltender.

Do you think Lehner was the difference last night?

 

[haak84]

Anybody who thinks we’ll just pickup journeyman average starting goalies like greiss/lehner this offseason and have similar goaltending success within hynes’ system is delusional.

I’m starting to become convinced Hynes is a goalie killer. He probably thinks his goalies just ‘need to make more saves’ instead of improving the situation for the goalie to do so.

 

[Triumph]

I disagree completely. We had like 11 shots through two periods last night. That wasn't a fluke. They've been winning close games because their goaltenders know what to expect from their defensemen. Lehner is a guy who oscillates between being great behind teams that play some defense, to awful behind teams that don't. Greiss has always been a solid if mediocre goaltender.

Do you think Lehner was the difference last night?

It's one game, one which I didn't see any of the first 2 periods. The Devils are missing the Hart Trophy winner from last season. You just keep believing in the magic. When the Islanders are back to being an 85 point team next season, some individuals will be blamed, or maybe someone they let go in free agency, or some other made up thing. Trotz is not a coach who's shown an ability to consistently beat the percentages.

They're playing good defense. Lehner might be real. Greiss isn't.

 

[billingtons ghost]

It's one game, one which I didn't see any of the first 2 periods. The Devils are missing the Hart Trophy winner from last season. You just keep believing in the magic. When the Islanders are back to being an 85 point team next season, some individuals will be blamed, or maybe someone they let go in free agency, or some other made up thing. Trotz is not a coach who's shown an ability to consistently beat the percentages.

They're playing good defense. Lehner might be real. Greiss isn't.

Lehner is an ok goaltender, and you're right, his numbers aren't sustainable - because he's just ok...but that isn't at all what is driving the Islanders success. I'm not saying that they are even a good team or that their success will continue - I'm just saying that it is clear that one team is getting the most out of its mediocre talent and the other one isn't.

We were winning without Hall for a bit there... and the Isles are without someone who's initials are JT.

 

[Brooklyndevil]

That is COMPLETE garbage.

They went from the #30 defense in the league to #1 defense in the league. It is entirely Trotz's system and Lou's organization and the commitment and buy in from the players. All you have to do is see how Halak's GAA and SV% improved when he got away from Doug Weight's defense to know that it is entirely and completely coaching, belief in the system, belief in the organization and accountability. Greiss was a very good goalie in San Jose. He was under duress last year.

I totally agree. I just think it’s more of the coach than Lou.

 

[haak84]

I totally agree. I just think it’s more of the coach than Lou.

just like its more hynes than shero

 

[Bleedred]

Lehner is good or at least no worse than average.

Greiss is a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get. One year it's .890%, next year it's .925%.

He's really no better than Kinkaid, outside of the fact that his best seasons have been better than Kinkaid's best.

 

[Bleedred]

I’m starting to become convinced Hynes is a goalie killer. He probably thinks his goalies just ‘need to make more saves’ instead of improving the situation for the goalie to do so.

No way you could possibly think he killed Schneider, who Kinkaid has been better than since 16-17 (albeit in a backup role the first year and much lesser workload) and it wasn't the injuries?

 

[ScottyK]

Anybody who thinks we’ll just pickup journeyman average starting goalies like greiss/lehner this offseason and have similar goaltending success within hynes’ system is delusional.

I’m starting to become convinced Hynes is a goalie killer. He probably thinks his goalies just ‘need to make more saves’ instead of improving the situation for the goalie to do so.

I'd like to run Varlamov/Blackwood next yr. However Ray might give Cory one more fresh start next yr since in his eyes this rebuild had another 2-3 yrs left

 

[Bleedred]

I'd like to run Varlamov/Blackwood next yr. However Ray might give Cory one more fresh start next yr since in his eyes this rebuild had another 2-3 yrs left

No to Cory. It's over, stick a fork in him. Time to old yeller him. Let him play down the stretch this year, but that's it. Enough is enough with him. He isn't coming back. By the time his hip heals, other parts of his game will have eroded. It's been eroding for over 2 years now and will be 3 years by next season.

Not into Varlamov right now, as he'll likely get term/dollars that we don't want.

 

[Cage Helmet]

No way you could possibly think he killed Schneider, who Kinkaid has been better than since 16-17 (albeit in a backup role the first year and much lesser workload) and it wasn't the injuries?

KK had the best season as a pro under Hynes just last year. Schneids had arguably his best season in the NHL under Hynes when he was a rookie coach in 2015-2016. Obviously Schneids was better pre Hynes era as a whole but that’s only because the year after Hynes came here he was dropped off a canyon after some modern day Tunguska event. KK only made 20 NHL appearances before Hynes was coach and only 13 of them were starts. These are the only two tenders the NJD has primarily had since Hynes came to town. Blackwood already has the third most games played by any G on the team since the Hynes hire. Wedgewood, Danis and Appleby all saw time under Hynes but all very limited and none are NHL caliber tenders so we have nothing to go on. Wedgewood played pretty well under Hynes but only played 4 games and would have been imploded with more games like what happened in AZ because he’s simply not an NHL caliber player.

My conclusion is that KK is an average backup tender having a poor year and I think because he’s not a guy you wanna rely on to play this kind of a workload long term. Schneids is just a broken down tender that’s lost all mobility due to his hip problems and other injuries have decayed his game from underneath itself over the last several years. It’s a shame but if calling a spade a spade - he’s done.

 

[Cage Helmet]

I'd like to run Varlamov/Blackwood next yr. However Ray might give Cory one more fresh start next yr since in his eyes this rebuild had another 2-3 yrs left

Varly reads too much like he’s the next guy to end up like Schneids. Guy is injury after injury. I’m shocked he hasn’t fallen apart yet. Hombre is being held together by crazy glue. I don’t see Schneids here unless Rejean either sees it as another non-compete year or he’s injured and cannot he cleared for the purposes of a contract buyout. Love Schneids but it’s clear he can’t play adequately in the national hockey league any longer. Too much of a net liability. It would have been like bringing the GOAT back in 2014. We loved him but he just couldn’t do it anymore. See if you can throw on the long term injury list and keep him with the org in some capacity or another. He’s a tremendous soldier but he can’t play anymore. Even if he has a few more solid starts left in him.

 

[Cage Helmet]

No to Cory. It's over, stick a fork in him. Time to old yeller him. Let him play down the stretch this year, but that's it. Enough is enough with him. He isn't coming back. By the time his hip heals, other parts of his game will have eroded. It's been eroding for over 2 years now and will be 3 years by next season.

Not into Varlamov right now, as he'll likely get term/dollars that we don't want.

Suppose it takes the hip two years to heal as has been noted. By that point he’ll be in his age 34 season. Even if the hip is healed then it’s very safe money that other parts of his game deteriorate. It already started happening before the hip.

 

[Bleedred]

Greiss was a very good goalie in San Jose. He was under duress last year.

He was a very average goalie in San Jose. If he was very good, there aren't many non-good goalies.

He was much better than Alex Stalock though, who plays like a Chico Resch video game robot.

 

[Bleedred]

Suppose it takes the hip two years to heal as has been noted. By that point he’ll be in his age 34 season. Even if the hip is healed then it’s very safe money that other parts of his game deteriorate. It already started happening before the hip.

It will be like Marty. His glove hand went bad during the MacLean season, but then it came back a bit stronger the next year, but by that point, other things started to erode in his game. I'mm not even comfortable with saying Cory is the equivalent to 2010 or 2012 Marty right now. I think he's closer to the 2014 version of Marty and that's actually assuming he's not quite as bad as his 373 minutes of unserviceability and terror this year.

 

[billingtons ghost]

No way you could possibly think he killed Schneider, who Kinkaid has been better than since 16-17 (albeit in a backup role the first year and much lesser workload) and it wasn't the injuries?

Totally killed Schneider. Anyone who thinks Varlamov is the answer is pretty nutty. He'd get lit up here the same way.

I'll bet Cory could go to another team and win games.

 

[billingtons ghost]

Lehner is good or at least no worse than average.

Greiss is a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get. One year it's .890%, next year it's .925%.

He's really no better than Kinkaid, outside of the fact that his best seasons have been better than Kinkaid's best.

The same thing could be said of Lehner: .905, .908 intermingled with .920s. He's nothing special, and that's playing on teams that allow LOTS of shots that bump up his SV%...so...

2012–13	Ottawa Senators	NHL	12	5	3	4	735	27	0	2.20	.936	2	0	1	49	2	0	2.45	.920
2013–14	Ottawa Senators	NHL	36	12	15	6	1942	99	1	3.06	.913	—	—	—	—	—	—	—	—
2014–15	Ottawa Senators	NHL	25	9	12	3	779	74	0	3.02	.905	—	—	—	—	—	—	—	—
2015–16	Buffalo Sabres	NHL	21	5	9	3	1155	48	1	2.47	.924	—	—	—	—	—	—	—	—
2015–16	Rochester Americans	AHL	3	1	2	0	179	10	0	3.36	.888	—	—	—	—	—	—	—	—
2016–17	Buffalo Sabres	NHL	59	23	26	8	3406	152	2	2.68	.920	—	—	—	—	—	—	—	—
2017–18	Buffalo Sabres	NHL	53	14	26	9	2853	143	3	3.01	.908	—	—	—	—	—	—	—	—

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[haak84]

board needs to realize that being an average backup goalie today is akin to being one of the worst goalies in the league. kinkaid is an average goalie, below average starter, above average backup. if he was behind a good team he could be an average to above average starter fluxuated between the two season to season. like he was for the second half last year. the goalies discussed in this thread arent much better, if that.

 

[haak84]

people dont want to hear this but kjnkaid has posted better stats against better teams than blackwood since the start of the new year. now im not saying hes a better goalie but maybe lets give blackwood 20 starts before we truly evaluate him.

Just to be clear. I don’t care if Kinkaid has a future here and I think Blackwood does.

 

[devilsblood]

board needs to realize that being an average backup goalie today is akin to being one of the worst goalies in the league. kinkaid is an average goalie, below average starter, above average backup. if he was behind a good team he could be an average to above average starter fluxuated between the two season to season. like he was for the second half last year. the goalies discussed in this thread arent much better, if that.

How does this jive with your "goalie killer" theory.