This is weird. Kasparaitis gifted his series-winning stick and puck to ... Alex Ovechkin

Ryder71

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When you adjust for era, I think AO has an argument as the best goal scorer in history. Mario, Gretzky, Bossy are also in the conversation.
I don't believe he has an argument as best goal scorer in history. And there's one variable you're leaving out, his age. His pace like Gretzky and Mario will trend downward as he hits his late 30's. In other words he's not gonna be playing at his optimal level moving forward. There's gonna be some drop off. When it's all said and done he'll be lucky to stay in the top five.
 

Tweed

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Not trying to throw this off, but my point still stands. I think Ovy is one of the GOAT scorers.

GOAT players: Mario/Wayne
Greatest goal scorer: Ovy

My top 10 GOAT players:
1a/b: Mario/Wayne
3: Orr
4: Sid
5. Jagr
6. Hasek
7. Howe
8. Geno/Ovy
10. Lidstrom

Idk... I have my own shit. :laugh:

You'd get crucified over at HoH, but I actually think your list is pretty bang on.
 
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PensPlz

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Not trying to throw this off, but my point still stands. I think Ovy is one of the GOAT scorers.

GOAT players: Mario/Wayne
Greatest goal scorer: Ovy

My top 10 GOAT players:
1a/b: Mario/Wayne
3: Orr
4: Sid
5. Jagr
6. Hasek
7. Howe
8. Geno/Ovy
10. Lidstrom

Idk... I have my own shit. :laugh:
If the point of the game is to put the puck in the net then you're ranking the greatest puck putter in the netter a little low imo. I'd put Ovie with Sid 4a/b.
 

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JordanStaal#1Fan
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I disagree but I'm curious as to where you would rate Ovechkin if he passed Gretzky in goals

Maybe top 10.

He is a great goal scorer and not much else. Scoring more does not change that. Shows he was great at this one thing for a long time. Top 10 is still pretty freaking great.

Sid is still a better player. Sid could finish as high as 5.
 
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EightyOne

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Maybe top 10.

He is a great goal scorer and not much else. Scoring more does not change that. Shows he was great at this one thing for a long time. Top 10 is still pretty freaking great.

Sid is still a better player. Sid could finish as high as 5.

If we're bringing intangibles, Sid is at least top three.

The on and off ice skill and tact is hard to beat.
 

ziggyjoe212

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I don't believe he has an argument as best goal scorer in history. And there's one variable you're leaving out, his age. His pace like Gretzky and Mario will trend downward as he hits his late 30's. In other words he's not gonna be playing at his optimal level moving forward. There's gonna be some drop off. When it's all said and done he'll be lucky to stay in the top five.
in 1985, the average NHL game had 7.9 goals scored. In 2015, the average NHL game had 5.5. When you factor in the percentage of goals that OV has scored, it is on par with Mario and Wayne.

Like I said in my previous post, you need to adjust scoring to their respective era. 50 goals in 2015 is very different than 50 goals in 1985. OV's 65 goal season is one of the most dominant goal scoring performances in history of the league, on par with the 80+ goal seasons from the 80's.

And no, I'm not leaving out age. OV is 34 years old and is still the best goal scorer in the league. Most forwards drop in production by the time they're 30. Crosby is a prime example.
 

ziggyjoe212

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Ovechkin is top 15 MAX!

Sid top 8 or 9.

They are not equals.
You cannot leave out arguably the best sniper in history out of the top 10. If he retired today he would be a lock for top 10. If Sid retired today he would be somewhere between 5-10. Likely closer to 10 because he doesn't have alot of individual hardware.
 

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JordanStaal#1Fan
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You cannot leave out arguably the best sniper in history out of the top 10. If he retired today he would be a lock for top 10. If Sid retired today he would be somewhere between 5-10. Likely closer to 10 because he doesn't have alot of individual hardware.

The importance you place on "snipers" is your own my friend.

I can easily leave him out at the moment. If Ovechkin had played like he did from 2007 to 2010 for 3 or 4 more years, you'd have an argument. Barely PPG, floating Ovechkin is not a top 10 player ever... despite the goal scoring. His entire game has been "dumb down" in order to maximize goal scoring. That's not a bad thing per se as it works for him and his team, but excelling in ONE aspect of the game is not enough for me... even if it is goals.

Mario and Gretzky scored at better paces and did not need to dumb down their games to do so. Sidney Crosby won two Richards while being a much more complete player. All the other guys in the top 10 have MUCH MORE team success than Ovechkin does. He is under PPG (barely) in the playoffs. Top 20, sure. Top 10 if he passes Gretzky, I'd be willing to there. Top 10 now? No, not even close. Do you have Mike Bossy in the top 10? He has the best GPG ever and scored 50 goals every year but his last year. Could be argued to be a better sniper than Ovechkin. Or is being an accumulator more important? In that case, do you have Mark Messier top 10? Marcel Dionne?

And what do you consider "a lot of individual hardware"? 9x the same trophy (reinforcing that you are great at ONE thing, Ovechkin has other trophies, do not get me wrong)? Sid has 2 Harts, 3 Lindsays, 2 Art Rosses, 2 Richards, 2 Conn Smythe DESPISTE his peak being basically wiped out by concussions and having being stolen a Art Ross/Hart by Brooks frecken Orpik. He will finish top 3 or 4 in playoff scoring. He is top 5 PPG ever right now (will be hard to maintain as he ages). Plus, like it or not, team success counts. Crosby has 3 Cups, 1 WC, 1 WCup, 2 OG. The Golden Goal and a World Cup MVP. Crosby also NEVER had a season under a PPG.

All Ovechkin has on Crosby is goal scoring. Crosby is better in the playoffs, a better point-producer, better defensively, better internationally (and Crosby is not that great internationally), MUCH MORE team success. So he has an argument for top 10 ever. Ovechkin's playoff resume is WAY too weak for him to have such an argument. But yeah goal scoring and hits... I guess.

That being said, Ovechkin is definitely one of the greats and will end up top-15 or so. That's awesome. He is just no Sidney Crosby and I cannot place him before guys like Roy, Hasek, M. Richard, Bobby Hull, Béliveau, Bourque and some others than I do not think of right now.
 
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JordanStaal#1Fan
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in 1985, the average NHL game had 7.9 goals scored. In 2015, the average NHL game had 5.5. When you factor in the percentage of goals that OV has scored, it is on par with Mario and Wayne.

Like I said in my previous post, you need to adjust scoring to their respective era. 50 goals in 2015 is very different than 50 goals in 1985. OV's 65 goal season is one of the most dominant goal scoring performances in history of the league, on par with the 80+ goal seasons from the 80's.

And no, I'm not leaving out age. OV is 34 years old and is still the best goal scorer in the league. Most forwards drop in production by the time they're 30. Crosby is a prime example.

Crosby's production has dropped, yet, he never fell under a point-per-game. Ovechkin's production has fallen since his peak ended in 2010. 4 seasons under a PPG including this year (barely). Never topped 90 points again. The drop happened when Ovechkin was... 25. Worst season was 65 points in 78 games (0.83PPG) at... 26 years-old. At 25 and 26, he scored 32 and 38 goals. He had another subpar year at 31: 33 goals, 69 points (0.84 PPG).

He scores goals all right, but that's pretty much all he has been doing since 2010-2011... when he was 25 years old. Peak happened from 22 to 24. Despite ALL of his goal scoring, he has only ONE Art Ross. A 6 point win on Malkin. Crosby has 2, a 6 point win and a 17 point win. Evgeni Malkin has 2 Art Rosses: A 3 point win (over Ovechkin) and a 12 point lead. Other players during Ovechkin's career have much more dominant Art Ross wins than he had (Kane, Kucherov, Draisaitl, McDavid). Crosby had been top 5 every year except this year from 2013 to 2019. Crosby's worst season PPG wise was 2015-16 when he scored 85 points in 80 games (1.06PPG). That's 0.23 PPG better than Ovechkin's worst season. Over 82 games, that's ~19-point difference. Over his three-year peak (injury ridden), Crosby scored at a 1.61PPG clip (he was 23 to 25, which is similair to Ovechkin's peak years). Ovechkin's 3-year peak was 1.42PPG. 0.19PPG less than Crosby. That's 16-point less over 82 games. Of course, Ovechkin played 2.5x the number of games Sid did. So, it would be wrong to give Sid the advantage peak wise. However, it is logical to consider that Crosby AT HIS VERY BEST is better than Ovechkin AT HIS VERY BEST! Crosby's floor is also much higher.

Adjust scoring as much as you want, Ovechkin's production DID drop off a lot and the reason why he can still score 50 (which is VERY impressive) is because he concentrates solely on that. Once again, that's not a bad thing.

So, yeah, you can argue for Ovechkin as the best goal scorer ever, but that is all you can do. He is not a better player than Crosby. I mean, unless you also have Brett Hull or Mike Bossy top 10 ever.

EDIT:
Career PPGs
Crosby: 1.28
Ovechkin: 1.11
Crosby is +0.17 or 13.94 point per 82 games (ie 17% better)

Playoffs PPGs
Crosby: 1.13 (-0.15 from his RS average)
Ovechkin: 0.98 (-0.13 from his RS average)
Crosby is +0.15 or 12.3 points per 82 games (ie 15% better)

Best: Crosby +0.19PPG (15.58 points per 82 games, 19% better)
Worst: Crosby +0.23PPG (18.86 points per 82 games, 23% better)
RS: Crosby +0.17PPG (13.94 points per 82 games, 17% better)
Playoffs: +0.15PPG (12.3 points per 82 games, 15% better)
"Average" (not a real average based on game played, but an average of the 4 categories): 0.185PPG (15.17 points per 82 games, 18.5% better)

And that's only offensive production. Crosby is about 18.5% more productive than Ovechkin... despite all the goal scoring. Note that other on-ice responsibilities are not factored in. At the end of the day, unless you want to "trophy count", there is no debate.
 
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Khelandros

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in 1985, the average NHL game had 7.9 goals scored. In 2015, the average NHL game had 5.5. When you factor in the percentage of goals that OV has scored, it is on par with Mario and Wayne.

Like I said in my previous post, you need to adjust scoring to their respective era. 50 goals in 2015 is very different than 50 goals in 1985. OV's 65 goal season is one of the most dominant goal scoring performances in history of the league, on par with the 80+ goal seasons from the 80's.

And no, I'm not leaving out age. OV is 34 years old and is still the best goal scorer in the league. Most forwards drop in production by the time they're 30. Crosby is a prime example.
Did Crosby not put up 100 points last season?
 

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JordanStaal#1Fan
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I am on vacation so...

Let's do Malkin for fun.

Regular season PPG: 1.19 (+0.08 on Ovechkin, 6.56 points per 82 games, 8% better)
Playoff PPG: 1.04 (+0.06 on Ovechkin, 4.92 points per 82 games, 6% better)
Three-year peak: 1.28 (-0.14 on Ovechkin, 11.48 less points per games, 14% worse)
Three best seasons (added that as Geno's peak is not really consecutive contrary to the other two guys): 1.37 (-0.05 compared to Ovechkin's three-year peak, 4.1 less points, 5% worse)
Worst season: 0.86 (+0.03 on Ovechkin, 2.46 points per 82 games, 3% better)
"Average": +0.0075 on Ovechkin, 0.615 points per 82 games, 0.75% better

I mean, it is pretty obvious that Ovechkin has had the better career. More trophies, more raw production because he actually played all the games, etc. However, production wise, Malkin and Ovechkin are WAY closer than Ovechkin and Crosby are.

Even when you trophy count:

Calder: 1 each
Art Ross: 2 Malkin, 1 Ovechkin
Hart: 3 Ovechkin (Malkin finished second for 2 of Ovechkin's 3 Harts), 1 Malkin (Ovechkin did not a receive a single vote that year)
Pearson: 3 Ovechkin (Malkin second for 2 of the 3), 1 Malkin
Richard: 9 Ovechkin, 0 Malkin
Conn Smythe: 1 Ovechkin, 1 Malkin

You can conclude that Ovechkin is a much better goal scorer. Ovechkin has more Pearsons and Harts, but Malkin was second to him 2 times. Gap in performance is not as huge as trophy counting would indicate.

Sub PPG seasons: 4 Ovechkin, 1 Malkin.

Malkin produces with more regularity... but he is injured way more.

I'd have Ovechkin over Malkin rather easily in an all-time ranking... but the difference in real production is quasi non-existant... unless you overvalue goal scoring and devalue playing without the puck.
 

Factorial

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The players that struck the most fear in me from opposing teams were Bossy, Potvin, Patrick Roy,Tim Kerr, Lindros, Gretzky, Kurri, Scott Stevens, Forsberg, Lafontaine and AO.

Pens never could stop Kerr from owning the front of the net. Hated him.
 
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Ryder71

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in 1985, the average NHL game had 7.9 goals scored. In 2015, the average NHL game had 5.5. When you factor in the percentage of goals that OV has scored, it is on par with Mario and Wayne.

Like I said in my previous post, you need to adjust scoring to their respective era. 50 goals in 2015 is very different than 50 goals in 1985. OV's 65 goal season is one of the most dominant goal scoring performances in history of the league, on par with the 80+ goal seasons from the 80's.

And no, I'm not leaving out age. OV is 34 years old and is still the best goal scorer in the league. Most forwards drop in production by the time they're 30. Crosby is a prime example.
There were also two line passes in that era, far less emphasis on fitness and nutrition, more clutching and grabbing (particularly in the mid 90's) and the sticks were far less conducive to scoring than they are now. There wasn't three on three OT's either. Crosby has also been ravaged by injury and concussion issues. That could have played a significant role in his lack of production or downward turn. AO has been largely injury free. Beyond that the age variable is the aspect you're not appreciating IMO. My point is as the years go by his production is very likely to slow considerably. Now, that remains to be seen, but I highly doubt he'll produce at age 38 as he is now. AO is at or near his high point now, he's not gonna stay on the that same trajectory. for example Gretzky's final four years he produced 23 goals, 25, 23 then 9. Mario's final year he was on pace for 22 goals (albeit at age 40)
 
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ziggyjoe212

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The importance you place on "snipers" is your own my friend.

I can easily leave him out at the moment. If Ovechkin had played like he did from 2007 to 2010 for 3 or 4 more years, you'd have an argument. Barely PPG, floating Ovechkin is not a top 10 player ever... despite the goal scoring. His entire game has been "dumb down" in order to maximize goal scoring. That's not a bad thing per se as it works for him and his team, but excelling in ONE aspect of the game is not enough for me... even if it is goals.

Mario and Gretzky scored at better paces and did not need to dumb down their games to do so. Sidney Crosby won two Richards while being a much more complete player. All the other guys in the top 10 have MUCH MORE team success than Ovechkin does. He is under PPG (barely) in the playoffs. Top 20, sure. Top 10 if he passes Gretzky, I'd be willing to there. Top 10 now? No, not even close. Do you have Mike Bossy in the top 10? He has the best GPG ever and scored 50 goals every year but his last year. Could be argued to be a better sniper than Ovechkin. Or is being an accumulator more important? In that case, do you have Mark Messier top 10? Marcel Dionne?

And what do you consider "a lot of individual hardware"? 9x the same trophy (reinforcing that you are great at ONE thing, Ovechkin has other trophies, do not get me wrong)? Sid has 2 Harts, 3 Lindsays, 2 Art Rosses, 2 Richards, 2 Conn Smythe DESPISTE his peak being basically wiped out by concussions and having being stolen a Art Ross/Hart by Brooks frecken Orpik. He will finish top 3 or 4 in playoff scoring. He is top 5 PPG ever right now (will be hard to maintain as he ages). Plus, like it or not, team success counts. Crosby has 3 Cups, 1 WC, 1 WCup, 2 OG. The Golden Goal and a World Cup MVP. Crosby also NEVER had a season under a PPG.

All Ovechkin has on Crosby is goal scoring. Crosby is better in the playoffs, a better point-producer, better defensively, better internationally (and Crosby is not that great internationally), MUCH MORE team success. So he has an argument for top 10 ever. Ovechkin's playoff resume is WAY too weak for him to have such an argument. But yeah goal scoring and hits... I guess.

That being said, Ovechkin is definitely one of the greats and will end up top-15 or so. That's awesome. He is just no Sidney Crosby and I cannot place him before guys like Roy, Hasek, M. Richard, Bobby Hull, Béliveau, Bourque and some others than I do not think of right now.
Sid is obviously better. I never said OV is better than him.

I just think that if a player is approaching the all time goal scoring mark in this "lower" scoring era of hockey then that is a significant accomplishment in the history of hockey.
 

ziggyjoe212

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Crosby's production has dropped, yet, he never fell under a point-per-game. Ovechkin's production has fallen since his peak ended in 2010. 4 seasons under a PPG including this year (barely). Never topped 90 points again. The drop happened when Ovechkin was... 25. Worst season was 65 points in 78 games (0.83PPG) at... 26 years-old. At 25 and 26, he scored 32 and 38 goals. He had another subpar year at 31: 33 goals, 69 points (0.84 PPG).

He scores goals all right, but that's pretty much all he has been doing since 2010-2011... when he was 25 years old. Peak happened from 22 to 24. Despite ALL of his goal scoring, he has only ONE Art Ross. A 6 point win on Malkin. Crosby has 2, a 6 point win and a 17 point win. Evgeni Malkin has 2 Art Rosses: A 3 point win (over Ovechkin) and a 12 point lead. Other players during Ovechkin's career have much more dominant Art Ross wins than he had (Kane, Kucherov, Draisaitl, McDavid). Crosby had been top 5 every year except this year from 2013 to 2019. Crosby's worst season PPG wise was 2015-16 when he scored 85 points in 80 games (1.06PPG). That's 0.23 PPG better than Ovechkin's worst season. Over 82 games, that's ~19-point difference. Over his three-year peak (injury ridden), Crosby scored at a 1.61PPG clip (he was 23 to 25, which is similair to Ovechkin's peak years). Ovechkin's 3-year peak was 1.42PPG. 0.19PPG less than Crosby. That's 16-point less over 82 games. Of course, Ovechkin played 2.5x the number of games Sid did. So, it would be wrong to give Sid the advantage peak wise. However, it is logical to consider that Crosby AT HIS VERY BEST is better than Ovechkin AT HIS VERY BEST! Crosby's floor is also much higher.

Adjust scoring as much as you want, Ovechkin's production DID drop off a lot and the reason why he can still score 50 (which is VERY impressive) is because he concentrates solely on that. Once again, that's not a bad thing.

So, yeah, you can argue for Ovechkin as the best goal scorer ever, but that is all you can do. He is not a better player than Crosby. I mean, unless you also have Brett Hull or Mike Bossy top 10 ever.

EDIT:
Career PPGs
Crosby: 1.28
Ovechkin: 1.11
Crosby is +0.17 or 13.94 point per 82 games (ie 17% better)

Playoffs PPGs
Crosby: 1.13 (-0.15 from his RS average)
Ovechkin: 0.98 (-0.13 from his RS average)
Crosby is +0.15 or 12.3 points per 82 games (ie 15% better)
Why do you keep bringint up Crosby? He has nothing to do with this topic.
Best: Crosby +0.19PPG (15.58 points per 82 games, 19% better)
Worst: Crosby +0.23PPG (18.86 points per 82 games, 23% better)
RS: Crosby +0.17PPG (13.94 points per 82 games, 17% better)
Playoffs: +0.15PPG (12.3 points per 82 games, 15% better)
"Average" (not a real average based on game played, but an average of the 4 categories): 0.185PPG (15.17 points per 82 games, 18.5% better)

And that's only offensive production. Crosby is about 18.5% more productive than Ovechkin... despite all the goal scoring. Note that other on-ice responsibilities are not factored in. At the end of the day, unless you want to "trophy count", there is no debate.

Why do yo keep bringing up Crosby? He has nothing to do with this topic.

And as far as the bolded, yes that is what the argument is here. OV's goal scoring is arguably the best in history.
 
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ziggyjoe212

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There were also two line passes in that era, far less emphasis on fitness and nutrition, more clutching and grabbing (particularly in the mid 90's) and the sticks were far less conducive to scoring than they are now. There wasn't three on three OT's either. Crosby has also been ravaged by injury and concussion issues. That could have played a significant role in his lack of production or downward turn. AO has been largely injury free. Beyond that the age variable is the aspect you're not appreciating IMO. My point is as the years go by his production is very likely to slow considerably. Now, that remains to be seen, but I highly doubt he'll produce at age 38 as he is now. AO is at or near his high point now, he's not gonna stay on the that same trajectory. for example Gretzky's final four years he produced 23 goals, 25, 23 then 9. Mario's final year he was on pace for 22 goals (albeit at age 40)
You're talking about hypotheticals of OV's production 5 years from now. The topic is OV's all time standings based on his production thus far. If OV were to retire today he'd be considered at worst a top 3 goal scorer in history.

If we are to speak hypotheticals, OV needs 190 goals to surpass Wayne's all time goal scoring mark. 32 goals per season over 6 seasons would do it. Is he gonna beat it? Probably not. But the fact that he's come so close in this era of hockey is an incredible feat.
 

Ryder71

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You're talking about hypotheticals of OV's production 5 years from now. The topic is OV's all time standings based on his production thus far. If OV were to retire today he'd be considered at worst a top 3 goal scorer in history.

If we are to speak hypotheticals, OV needs 190 goals to surpass Wayne's all time goal scoring mark. 32 goals per season over 6 seasons would do it. Is he gonna beat it? Probably not. But the fact that he's come so close in this era of hockey is an incredible feat.
We're comparing him to all time greats who have long since retired. I don't think it's an even handed argument if you don't consider the likelihood that he'll tail off in ensuing years.

And yes his numbers are tremendous, no one can dispute that. But a contributing factor to that is the fact that he hasn't been befallen by injury woes. Mario and Bossys numbers would be far better if their careers weren't shortened or hampered by debilitating injuries. I think that is something that's being overlooked here. To be clear I'm not disputing AO isn't one of the greatest goal scorers in history. I'm disputing he's the greatest.
 

Crosbyfan

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Definitely the best pure goal scorer ever...much less tainted by excessive amounts of playmaking, defense etc.:sarcasm:
 

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