This Friday the Draft order for the 2005 may be set !!

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Gardebut30

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Jun 8, 2004
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on friday, the gm's should rise bright and early, get the coffee brewing, and together all play an entire season of nhl eastside hockey manager. and base the results on that season.

this solution is as ridiculous as these kinds of debates. we've gone over it a million times. we're making as much progress on the issue as the guys actually in charge. i say, wait to see what happens, and then open the floor...

my .02 cents
 

borro

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BobMarleyNYR said:
They should make it so the Caps and Pens can't land in the top 2... after that, I think a 30 team lottery is most fair. Weighted toward the teams who have averaged the worst records in the last 3 or 4 years... Pens and Caps should NOT be on the bill until pick no. 3 is chosen.
No, they should make it so that the Rags can't get Crosby. They just squander the talent anyways.
 

Jag68Sid87

Sullivan gots to go!
Oct 1, 2003
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I still like the idea of using the standings from the last four seasons (the only four regular seasons with a 30-team league) to weigh the lottery, but to give all 30 teams at least one ping-pong ball and a shot at Crosby.

Let's face it, if a potential franchise savior like Crosby wasn't eligible this year, I don't think they would have as big of a problem determining the draft order.
 

Chimaera

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Feb 4, 2004
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I do think that they should have a broader lottery if they aren't going to base the draft order on a season. However, I don't feel a team like Tampa Bay should be able to move up to the number 1 spot, no matter what. They should at least make it so people can't drop more than 7, or move up more than 3-4... Kinda like the NBA system.


Basing it on the past 5-6 years is not the way to handle it. Those teams have already earned their rewards for sucking for a while. Other teams have not.

The irony of it all is this, the Caps 'team' as it is now, would basically be a bottom 3 team at best and have a solid shot of getting Crosby. People complaining that it would be unfair are missing the reality of just how depleted the Caps roster is.
 

Jaded-Fan

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Mar 18, 2004
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BobMarleyNYR said:
They should make it so the Caps and Pens can't land in the top 2... after that, I think a 30 team lottery is most fair. Weighted toward the teams who have averaged the worst records in the last 3 or 4 years... Pens and Caps should NOT be on the bill until pick no. 3 is chosen.



Detroit, Colorado, New Jersey, Toronto, Vancouver, etc will all have chances at number one but two of the worst teams in the league will not? Good shootin' there Tex . . . :shakehead

And totally irrelevant. The system chosen will be weighted and refer back to most likely 2003-4, but maybe 2 or 3 seasons combined. Anyone who thinks otherwise are deluding themselves.
 

Legionnaire

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FlyersGuy69 said:
I'm for a wide open draft lottery and it wouldn't matter were you finished last year. for example, Philadelphia would have the same odds on landing the 1st overall as Washington or Pittsburgh.

Shocking!
 

Enoch

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Jul 2, 2003
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EroCaps said:
IMO the 2001-2002 season should have nothing to do w/the 2005 Draft. If you follow that logic, neither should 02-03. Crosby aside, teams like Carolina, Washington, Chicago and Pittsburgh need a high pick. The Canes made the Cup Finals a few years back, and now I'd argue they need a top pick more than any bottom five team.

I'd find it uber-hypocritical if amidst a lockout in which the owners are desperately trying to create league parity, the NHL finds a way to palm Crosby to a favorable market via an arbitrary draft method.

Just my 0.02c

Washington needs a high pick?

I must have missed that....
 

Goodwith Sticks

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May 11, 2004
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markov` said:
The "big boys" you are talking about are in fact illusional fans like you who makes them believe their team have a shot at Crosby. They are the only one who ask for a league-wide lottery.
Too stupid to realize he's quoting directly from the article? Wow, you're looking foolish now. Next time open the link before you get your panties in a bunch because it's a "leafs fan". Messenger is the most insightful and knowledgeable poster on these boards and if you'd take the bias kettle of the stove for a moment you might learn something from him.
 

Dr Hook

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Chimaera said:
The irony of it all is this, the Caps 'team' as it is now, would basically be a bottom 3 team at best and have a solid shot of getting Crosby. People complaining that it would be unfair are missing the reality of just how depleted the Caps roster is.

You're right, they are depleted and would be a bottom 3 team. But saying they deserve a better crack at the #1 than other teams ignores the reality that the Caps are in they shape they are due to the massive firesale they had on their players. They wrecked their own roster, they didnt try to field the best team they could and come up short. That is what the draft order is supposed to address. Not teams like the Pens and the Caps who (for whatever the reason) basically clean house and play a team of half-ready prospects and career minor leaguers.
 

EroCaps

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Enoch said:
Washington needs a high pick?

I must have missed that....

Atlanta- (1)Stefan, (2)Heatley, (1)Kovalchuck, (2)Lehtonen
Pittsburgh- (4)Whitney, (1)Fleury, (2)Malkin
Florida- (4)Weiss, (3)Bouwmeester, (3)Horton
Columbus- (1)Nash, (4)Zherdev

The Caps have had one top 5 pick since 1996 and two total since 1982 when they took Scott Stevens.

;)
 

Ban Hammered

Disallowed & Inhibited
May 15, 2003
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McDonald19 said:
Compromise is going to be a weighted lottery system:

only the worst 5 or 10 teams from the 03-04 season will have a shot at Crosby.


This is probably how it will end up working. But I think the draft shouldn't happen at all and then just hold it as scheduled next year. Its their own fault so the league should just suffer and playa season before they see who gets Crosby, and if a team tanks, they tank and they prove they don't care about winning or their fans.
 

Attica

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Feb 21, 2004
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I think every team should have a chance at crosby, albeit the struggling teams should have a much bigger chance. So lets say Washington has 30 entries in the draw, pitts 29, and so on and so forth with tampa getting one pick, once a team has been drawn, it's ballots are removed. So the struggling teams have an overwhelming chance to get a high pick, but there's still a chance for the philidelphias, colorados and vancouvers to get a decent shot. after the first round, reverse the draft order, so if lets say, vancover draws near the mid twenties, they'll get a pick near the beginning of the second. Alternate the draft order every round, any objections?
 

Legionnaire

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Dr Hook said:
You're right, they are depleted and would be a bottom 3 team. But saying they deserve a better crack at the #1 than other teams ignores the reality that the Caps are in they shape they are due to the massive firesale they had on their players. They wrecked their own roster, they didnt try to field the best team they could and come up short. That is what the draft order is supposed to address. Not teams like the Pens and the Caps who (for whatever the reason) basically clean house and play a team of half-ready prospects and career minor leaguers.


:clap: :yo: :clap:
 

EroCaps

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The Caps didn't wreck their team, their team was horrible before the firesale and losing nearly 20 million. If I'm not mistaken, they improved somewhat after losing Jagr, Lang, etc. Pittsburgh was clinging to their franchise. The Hawks are the cheapest team in the league and the Rangers are more responsible for inflated player salaries than any other club. You can keep making cases.

I wouldn't try to qualify which case is more "deserving". IMO, bad is bad.
 

PecaFan

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Nov 16, 2002
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Ok, here's the actual data for the last five seasons, how much up or down each team moved in the overall standings from year to year.

I must admit I was a bit surprised, there was a bit more movement from year to year than I expected. Teams like the Sharks -20 then +22 show the danger of only using a single season.

Since nearly 50% of the time teams move more than five spots, clearly it would be patently unfair to say anyone not in the bottom five was eligible for the top pick.

[pre]

Team 99->00 00->01 01->02 02->03 03->04
Anaheim Mighty Ducks -5 -7 2 13 -11
Atlanta Thrashers #N/A 0 -2 7 2
Boston Bruins -16 6 16 -13 11
Buffalo Sabres -7 8 -12 -6 8
Calgary Flames -2 2 -2 0 10
Carolina Hurricanes -4 0 1 -14 7
Chicago Blackhawks 0 -1 13 -8 -12
Colorado Avalanche -5 8 -3 -2 -4
Columbus Bluejackets #N/A #N/A -6 1 1
Dallas Stars -5 1 -12 15 -9
Detroit Red Wings 4 0 1 -2 2
Edmonton Oilers 2 2 -3 1 -3
Florida Panthers 9 -19 -1 1 3
Los-Angeles Kings 11 -2 1 -6 -2
Minnesota Wild #N/A #N/A 2 13 -9
Montreal Canadiens 1 -6 6 -3 8
Nashville Predators -1 6 -6 1 8
New-Jersey Devils -2 1 -7 6 -5
New-York Islanders -1 -4 22 -8 1
New-York Rangers -5 2 0 2 -6
Ottawa Senators -7 6 -10 13 -5
Philadelphia Flyers 4 -4 0 2 -3
Phoenix Coyotes -2 -4 5 -9 -6
Pittsburgh Penguins -2 4 -17 -3 -1
San-Jose Sharks 0 4 6 -20 22
St.-Louis Blues 11 -5 0 -2 -6
Tampa-Bay Lightning 0 -2 2 15 10
Toronto Maple Leafs -2 -7 11 -6 4
Vancouver Canucks 6 5 2 6 0
Washington Capitals 18 -5 -9 6 -15

Change >15 8 5.5%
Change 10-14 17 11.7%
Change 5-9 40 27.6%
Change 1-5 69 47.6%
Change 0 11 7.6%

[/pre]
 

Enoch

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Jul 2, 2003
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EroCaps said:
The Caps didn't wreck their team, their team was horrible before the firesale and losing nearly 20 million. If I'm not mistaken, they improved somewhat after losing Jagr, Lang, etc. Pittsburgh was clinging to their franchise. The Hawks are the cheapest team in the league and the Rangers are more responsible for inflated player salaries than any other club. You can keep making cases.

I wouldn't try to qualify which case is more "deserving". IMO, bad is bad.

Save it. We all know what the Caps did to themselves in order to ensure a shot at Ovechkin and secure more draft picks. No amount of squriming is going to change our opinions here. Your team boasted a plethora of superstar talent which was single handedly bartered off in exchange for draft picks and prospects.

The Caps do not "Need" a no. 1 pick any more than the Wings "needed" to win the cup last year. Your just a fan that wants his team to secure this generations top talent all on one team. I can understand the sentiment, but that does not mean that it should occur. Could it? Yes. Should it? Probably not. Will it? I think many of the owners realize that taking the same draft order from last year is simply an unfair system. Fortunes can change entirely in one year. See San Jose from 03.....or even yourselves, as much as your GM helped it along.
 

Dr Hook

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EroCaps said:
The Caps didn't wreck their team, their team was horrible before the firesale and losing nearly 20 million. If I'm not mistaken, they improved somewhat after losing Jagr, Lang, etc. Pittsburgh was clinging to their franchise. The Hawks are the cheapest team in the league and the Rangers are more responsible for inflated player salaries than any other club. You can keep making cases.

I wouldn't try to qualify which case is more "deserving". IMO, bad is bad.

Yeah I agree they were bad before the firesale. But the difference is that before their big salary dump, they were at least making an honest effort to put out a competitive team. After the cleanout, that argument cannot be made. The other examples you give, while they may be bad in a general sense, aren't the point here. The specific argument was that the Caps had the most depleted roster so therfore they should get dibs on the next #1 in the draft.
 

Chimaera

same ol' Caps
Feb 4, 2004
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Dr Hook said:
Yeah I agree they were bad before the firesale. But the difference is that before their big salary dump, they were at least making an honest effort to put out a competitive team. After the cleanout, that argument cannot be made. The other examples you give, while they may be bad in a general sense, aren't the point here. The specific argument was that the Caps had the most depleted roster so therfore they should get dibs on the next #1 in the draft.


Ok, so you conceed they were bad prior to the sale, but then by ditching the players who aren't performing and can bring players who will eventually make the team better, that should be counted as not trying to win?

There's a realization some of you need to understand and come across... If a team is spending 50+ million and is in the bottom 5 of the league, something's not working right. Spending another 15 million to make the team better just doesn't cut it.

The Caps team prior to the firesale (and yes, that's what it was) had no chance to make the playoffs. That same team wasn't getting any younger either. So, what's your option? Break it all down and start it over, or spend another 15million and patch it up. If you say spend, Welcome to the Rangers. Because you can spend another 15+ million and your team still might stink.

I can see the argument against the Caps getting awarded the top pick straight out, and honestly, I don't think they should. If they win it in a lottery, that's fine. That's not the Caps fault they saw the CBA coming. Or even that they're bad prior to the CBA. A rebuilding had to occur. In a market like Washington, and in many hockey places in general, a retooling just doesn't cut it. Maybe some franchises like Toronto and Philly might learn that you're eventually going to have to build from scratch. And the whole garbage about a team 'not wanting to win' is stupid. Every team wants to win, just, the Caps are looking to win down the road.

Whether they do the dump of players or not, they still would have finished in the Lottery.

The only point some people are trying to make is that 'currently' the Caps would be looking at the top pick, if you take their present roster. However, I doubt highly that the players the Caps have would be the team iced. They will go out and get some players towards making the team competitive. Even with some decent vets added to the blueline and the forwards, they're still looking at a young mistake filled team that probably will be in the bottom of the standings.

I just hope they play some hockey before figuring out the order, so we don't have to listen/read to this garbage about Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa, Tampa Bay, etc. should have a shot/chance at Crosby. The draft is used to make the teams with lesser talent better. Irregardless of any other variables.
 

EroCaps

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Enoch said:
Save it. We all know what the Caps did to themselves in order to ensure a shot at Ovechkin and secure more draft picks. No amount of squriming is going to change our opinions here. Your team boasted a plethora of superstar talent which was single handedly bartered off in exchange for draft picks and prospects.

The Caps do not "Need" a no. 1 pick any more than the Wings "needed" to win the cup last year. Your just a fan that wants his team to secure this generations top talent all on one team. I can understand the sentiment, but that does not mean that it should occur. Could it? Yes. Should it? Probably not. Will it? I think many of the owners realize that taking the same draft order from last year is simply an unfair system. Fortunes can change entirely in one year. See San Jose from 03.....or even yourselves, as much as your GM helped it along.

The Caps didn't "do themselves in". If you're going to go that righteous rout why not mention the Pens? They moved every last piece of talent outside of the owner and have landed three straight top 5 picks. The Caps weren't going to make the playoffs, were losing serious money and had good reasons to trade Jagr (cancer, $), Bondra (perhaps last Cup chance), Gonchar (contract year, wouldn't resign), Konowalchuck and Lang (requested trades). Our talent wasn't cohesive and played horribly. It was a failed experiment. We stunk.

I never mentioned wanting Crosby in particular. I'm not as sold on him as most. Just making the case on behalf of the handful or so teams in the bottom five including the Caps that haven't improved. It would certainly seem like a joke to give them the boot after this monumental effort to create parity.
 

Epsilon

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Oct 26, 2002
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EroCaps said:
The Caps didn't "do themselves in". If you're going to go that righteous rout why not mention the Pens? They moved every last piece of talent outside of the owner and have landed three straight top 5 picks. The Caps weren't going to make the playoffs, were losing serious money and had good reasons to trade Jagr (cancer, $), Bondra (perhaps last Cup chance), Gonchar (contract year, wouldn't resign), Konowalchuck and Lang (requested trades). Our talent wasn't cohesive and played horribly. It was a failed experiment. We stunk.

I never mentioned wanting Crosby in particular. I'm not as sold on him as most. Just making the case on behalf of the handful or so teams in the bottom five including the Caps that haven't improved. It would certainly seem like a joke to give them the boot after this monumental effort to create parity.

Creating parity has to work both ways.
 

Safir*

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I've got a simple solution. First off all, we need to stop arguing about the 2005 Draft, because it won't take place anyways. Secondly, let the league play the 2005-2006 campain and then combine the 2005 & 2006 Draft class.
 

salty justice

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The Hawks have never had a 1st overall pick ever and they finished bottom 2 last season. Its about time Wirtz gets a pat on the back for all his loyal years as a tool to the NHL.
 
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