Third best hockey country

Sprague Cleghorn

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Aug 14, 2013
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No.1 is obviously Canada and no.2 is going to clearly be Russia. But as I see it right now, the fight for #3 is a lot murkier with the Czech Republic, USA and Sweden all having good cases. Here are the proposed rosters for each (criteria for country eligibility is which country gets the most credit for developing the player, so players like Hull, Dillon, Burch are not counted as Americans):

Czech Republic

Patrik Elias - Vaclav Nedomansky - Jaromir Jagr
Ivan Hlinka - Milan Novy - Vladimir Martinec
Jiri Holik - Bobby Holik - Jakub Voracek
Vladimir Zabrodky - David Krejci - Milan Hejduk

Frantisek Pospisil - Jan Suchy
Petr Svoboda - Jiri Bubla
Roman Hamrlik - Tomas Kaberle

Dominik Hasek
Jiri Holecek

Sweden

Markus Naslund - Peter Forsberg - Daniel Alfredsson
Henrik Zetterberg - Nicklas Backstrom - Hakan Loob
Daniel Sedin - Henrik Sedin - Mats Sundin
Mats Naslund - Sven Johansson - Kent Nilsson

Nicklas Lidstrom - Erik Karlsson
Borje Salming - Victor Hedman
Ulf Samuelsson - Lennart Svedberg

Henrik Lundqvist
Peter Lindmark

USA

Keith Tkachuk - Mike Modano - Patrick Kane
John Leclair - Pat LaFontaine - Phil Kessel
Zach Parise - Jeremy Roenick - Blake Wheeler
Tony Amonte - Doug Weight - Joe Mullen

Brian Leetch - Chris Chelios
Rod Langway - Mark Howe
Ryan Suter - Phil Housley

Frank Brimsek
Tom Barrasso


Well, after doing this it seems that I overrated the Czechs a bit. Right now they look like the clear 5th. They have by far the best goaltending, but their defense is way behind (if you use the top 60 D list on HOH, their two best D are in the 50-60 range and the rest are probably not even top 100), and their offensive depth doesn't match up with Sweden or the USA despite having the best F of the bunch.

Now to compare Sweden and the USA. Goaltending is in favor of the USA. Brimsek is a borderline top 10 G, and Barrasso is around 25th. Lundqvist is borderline top 20, and Lindmark is probably in the 40-50 range. Sweden's Cs are vastly superior (Sundin had to be moved to the RW!), but the reverse is true for the USA's RWs (Amonte moved to the left). LW looks like slight advantage to Sweden.

On D, Sweden's top pairing of Lidstrom - Karlsson is superior, but it looks like that's the only advantage Sweden has at D. USA's bottom four looks better to me.

So who do you got?
 
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Sprague Cleghorn

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I'm also going to add current players that look like they'll have a good bet to make their country's historical roster in the future.

Czech Republic

David Pastrnak (RW), Ondrej Palat (LW)

These are really lean years for the Czechs, but the recent drafts have produced potential quality players such as Martin Necas, Filip Chitil, and Martin Kaut. I, for one, am hoping they can get back to their previous levels of glory.

Sweden

Filip Forsberg (LW), Gabriel Landeskog (LW), William Nylander (C/RW), Oliver Ekman-Larsson (D), Hampus Lindholm (D), Rasmus Dahlin (D)

Sweden's D has real potential to become the 2nd best all-time. Karlsson and Hedman are still adding to their resumes, and I think it's only a matter of time before Samuelsson is surpassed as the #6D by OEL and/or Lindholm. In addition, Dahlin is a near generational prospect so we'll see where that goes. Overall, things are looking good for Sweden.

USA

Johnny Gaudreau (LW), Jack Eichel (C), Auston Matthews (C), Jack Hughes (C/W), Seth Jones (D), Zach Werenski (D)

To me, the USA has the greatest chance to massively improve their roster. This is going to be the USA's golden generation and if the above players keep improving or even level off and simply continue their current level of play for a while, the USA is going to be the clear 3rd, and maybe even compete with Russia for 2nd all-time.
 

JackSlater

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Apr 27, 2010
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Sweden on big ice, probably USA on smaller ice. I suspect that the Czech team would be the most cohesive and might have been my pick if it was a team of combined Czechs and Slovaks.
 
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brachyrynchos

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Apr 10, 2017
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No.1 is obviously Canada and no.2 is going to clearly be Russia. But as I see it right now, the fight for #3 is a lot murkier with the Czech Republic, USA and Sweden all having good cases. Here are the proposed rosters for each (criteria for country eligibility is which country gets the most credit for developing the player, so players like Hull, Dillon, Burch are not counted as Americans):

Czech Republic

Patrik Elias - Vaclav Nedomansky - Jaromir Jagr
Ivan Hlinka - Milan Novy - Vladimir Martinec
Jiri Holik - Bobby Holik - Jakub Voracek
Vladimir Zabrodky - David Krejci - Milan Hejduk

Frantisek Pospisil - Jan Suchy
Petr Svoboda - Tomas Kaberle
Roman Hamrlik - Pavel Kubina

Dominik Hasek
Jiri Holecek

Sweden

Markus Naslund - Peter Forsberg - Daniel Alfredsson
Henrik Zetterberg - Nicklas Backstrom - Hakan Loob
Daniel Sedin - Henrik Sedin - Mats Sundin
Mats Naslund - Sven Johansson - Tomas Sandstrom

Nicklas Lidstrom - Erik Karlsson
Borje Salming - Victor Hedman
Ulf Samuelsson - Lennart Svedberg

Henrik Lundqvist
Peter Lindmark

USA

Keith Tkachuk - Mike Modano - Patrick Kane
John Leclair - Pat LaFontaine - Phil Kessel
Zach Parise - Jeremy Roenick - Blake Wheeler
Tony Amonte - Doug Weight - Joe Mullen

Brian Leetch - Chris Chelios
Rod Langway - Mark Howe
Ryan Suter - Phil Housley

Frank Brimsek
Tom Barrasso


Well, after doing this it seems that I overrated the Czechs a bit. Right now they look like the clear 5th. They have by far the best goaltending, but their defense is way behind (if you use the top 60 D list on HOH, their two best D are in the 50-60 range and the rest are probably not even top 100), and their offensive depth doesn't match up with Sweden or the USA despite having the best F of the bunch.

Now to compare Sweden and the USA. Goaltending is in favor of the USA. Brimsek is a borderline top 10 G, and Barrasso is around 25th. Lundqvist is borderline top 20, and Lindmark is probably in the 40-50 range. Sweden's Cs are vastly superior (Sundin had to be moved to the RW!), but the reverse is true for the USA's RWs (Amonte moved to the left). LW looks like slight advantage to Sweden.

On D, Sweden's top pairing of Lidstrom - Karlsson is superior, but it looks like that's the only advantage Sweden has at D. USA's bottom four looks better to me.

So who do you got?
 

Canadiens1958

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Nov 30, 2007
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Lake Memphremagog, QC.
No.1 is obviously Canada and no.2 is going to clearly be Russia. But as I see it right now, the fight for #3 is a lot murkier with the Czech Republic, USA and Sweden all having good cases. Here are the proposed rosters for each (criteria for country eligibility is which country gets the most credit for developing the player, so players like Hull, Dillon, Burch are not counted as Americans):

Czech Republic

Patrik Elias - Vaclav Nedomansky - Jaromir Jagr
Ivan Hlinka - Milan Novy - Vladimir Martinec
Jiri Holik - Bobby Holik - Jakub Voracek
Vladimir Zabrodky - David Krejci - Milan Hejduk

Frantisek Pospisil - Jan Suchy
Petr Svoboda - Tomas Kaberle
Roman Hamrlik - Pavel Kubina

Dominik Hasek
Jiri Holecek

Sweden

Markus Naslund - Peter Forsberg - Daniel Alfredsson
Henrik Zetterberg - Nicklas Backstrom - Hakan Loob
Daniel Sedin - Henrik Sedin - Mats Sundin
Mats Naslund - Sven Johansson - Tomas Sandstrom

Nicklas Lidstrom - Erik Karlsson
Borje Salming - Victor Hedman
Ulf Samuelsson - Lennart Svedberg

Henrik Lundqvist
Peter Lindmark

USA

Keith Tkachuk - Mike Modano - Patrick Kane
John Leclair - Pat LaFontaine - Phil Kessel
Zach Parise - Jeremy Roenick - Blake Wheeler
Tony Amonte - Doug Weight - Joe Mullen

Brian Leetch - Chris Chelios
Rod Langway - Mark Howe
Ryan Suter - Phil Housley

Frank Brimsek
Tom Barrasso


Well, after doing this it seems that I overrated the Czechs a bit. Right now they look like the clear 5th. They have by far the best goaltending, but their defense is way behind (if you use the top 60 D list on HOH, their two best D are in the 50-60 range and the rest are probably not even top 100), and their offensive depth doesn't match up with Sweden or the USA despite having the best F of the bunch.

Now to compare Sweden and the USA. Goaltending is in favor of the USA. Brimsek is a borderline top 10 G, and Barrasso is around 25th. Lundqvist is borderline top 20, and Lindmark is probably in the 40-50 range. Sweden's Cs are vastly superior (Sundin had to be moved to the RW!), but the reverse is true for the USA's RWs (Amonte moved to the left). LW looks like slight advantage to Sweden.

On D, Sweden's top pairing of Lidstrom - Karlsson is superior, but it looks like that's the only advantage Sweden has at D. USA's bottom four looks better to me.

So who do you got?

Interesting thread.

The Soviet Union/Russia, benefits directly from a disproportionate number of games vs NHL opposition from 1972 thru 1990 and the resulting favourable projections.

As hockey nations, Sweden, the USA and Finland, the last 20 seasons have wedged themselves between Canada and the USSR/Russia.
 

lamini

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Nov 30, 2011
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Well, I think Czech ranking suffers from only having one good generation that could play in NHL. Other good generations had few or no games against NHL level competiton and falls down in rankings thanks to it.
 

VMBM

And it didn't even bring me down
Sep 24, 2008
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Helsinki, Finland
Well, both USA and Sweden are clearly better than the Czech Republic right now.

But all-time? I'd still vote for either Czech Republic or Sweden. The Czechs were ahead until the early/mid-1980s, Sweden has generally been better since that. USA became a real contender only in the 1990s (no need to bring up The Miracle, heh).

Jiri Bubla on Team Czech?
 
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Sprague Cleghorn

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Aug 14, 2013
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Edmonton, KY
No Kent Nilsson on Team Sweden?

I guess hed be better than Sandstrom

Well, both USA and Sweden are clearly better than the Czech Republic right now.

But all-time? I'd still vote for either Czech Republic or Sweden. The Czechs were ahead until the early/mid-1980s, Sweden has generally been better since that. USA became a real contender only in the 1990s (no need to bring up The Miracle, heh).

Jiri Bubla on Team Czech?

Totally forgot about bubla. Hes better than kubina for sure.

Im curious why you think Czechs are still in contention. Their defence looks significantly weaker than those of sweden and the usa even with the addition of bubla. Both the Swedes and americans have three Ds that are at minimum top 30 while the czechs best is around 50th or 40th if you want to be generous.

The czech forwards even if you argue theyre the best, it doesnt look like theyre ahead by much. Is it Hasek thats the difference maker then?
 

vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
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it's hard not to look forward and not project the US to lock down #3 and maybe even leapfrog russia. but we've been hearing that for a long time.

who did the greatest generation yield of all-time significance? some great defensemen: chelios, leetch, howe, langway, maybe housley and suter if i'm being generous, then roenick, lafontaine, and modano? barrasso, beezer, richter?

and it was an ill-fated bunch but that crop of berard, dipietro, gomez, legwand, tim connolly, ryan whitney, gleason, komisarek, ballard, etc was hardly the next wave as was advertised.

the crop after that had some nice players: kane, suter, parise, kesler, kessel, wheeler, pavelski... but russia is still churning out ovechkin and malkin.

history tells me we maybe should cool our jets a little on jones, eichel, matthews, boeser, middlestadt, the hughes brothers, etc before we declare the US to have leapfrogged sweden, let alone russia.

and man is sweden ever having a golden generation...
 
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YippieKaey

How you gonna do hockey like that?
Apr 2, 2012
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Stockholm Sweden
If only there was some kind of regular competition between these nations where the winners were rewarded with some form of medal. Then we could properly rank teams....
 

VMBM

And it didn't even bring me down
Sep 24, 2008
3,798
754
Helsinki, Finland
Totally forgot about bubla. Hes better than kubina for sure.

Im curious why you think Czechs are still in contention. Their defence looks significantly weaker than those of sweden and the usa even with the addition of bubla. Both the Swedes and americans have three Ds that are at minimum top 30 while the czechs best is around 50th or 40th if you want to be generous.

The czech forwards even if you argue theyre the best, it doesnt look like theyre ahead by much. Is it Hasek thats the difference maker then?

Well, Hasek maybe, and it's not like USA has ever had a forward as good as Jagr, either.

Anyway, maybe I missed the point of the thread, I don't know.

I just thought that the Czech Republic still has a better 'all-time depth' than USA; i.e. if you list, say, 60 best players from both nations, then the Czech B and C teams would probably be stronger than USA's equivalent teams, even if their A team might lose (it's just a feeling, I haven't made any real comparison). Of course, we don't quite know how good Nedomansky, Martinec, Suchy, Pospisil (not to mention the older generation of players like Zabrodsky, Vlastimil Bubnik, Malecek) etc really were, but I probably rate them more highly than most.
 

DannyGallivan

Your world frightens and confuses me
Aug 25, 2017
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Melonville
No.1 is obviously Canada and no.2 is going to clearly be Russia. But as I see it right now, the fight for #3 is a lot murkier with the Czech Republic, USA and Sweden all having good cases. Here are the proposed rosters for each (criteria for country eligibility is which country gets the most credit for developing the player, so players like Hull, Dillon, Burch are not counted as Americans):

Czech Republic

Patrik Elias - Vaclav Nedomansky - Jaromir Jagr
Ivan Hlinka - Milan Novy - Vladimir Martinec
Jiri Holik - Bobby Holik - Jakub Voracek
Vladimir Zabrodky - David Krejci - Milan Hejduk

Frantisek Pospisil - Jan Suchy
Petr Svoboda - Jiri Bubla
Roman Hamrlik - Tomas Kaberle

Dominik Hasek
Jiri Holecek

Sweden

Markus Naslund - Peter Forsberg - Daniel Alfredsson
Henrik Zetterberg - Nicklas Backstrom - Hakan Loob
Daniel Sedin - Henrik Sedin - Mats Sundin
Mats Naslund - Sven Johansson - Kent Nilsson

Nicklas Lidstrom - Erik Karlsson
Borje Salming - Victor Hedman
Ulf Samuelsson - Lennart Svedberg

Henrik Lundqvist
Peter Lindmark

USA

Keith Tkachuk - Mike Modano - Patrick Kane
John Leclair - Pat LaFontaine - Phil Kessel
Zach Parise - Jeremy Roenick - Blake Wheeler
Tony Amonte - Doug Weight - Joe Mullen

Brian Leetch - Chris Chelios
Rod Langway - Mark Howe
Ryan Suter - Phil Housley

Frank Brimsek
Tom Barrasso


Well, after doing this it seems that I overrated the Czechs a bit. Right now they look like the clear 5th. They have by far the best goaltending, but their defense is way behind (if you use the top 60 D list on HOH, their two best D are in the 50-60 range and the rest are probably not even top 100), and their offensive depth doesn't match up with Sweden or the USA despite having the best F of the bunch.

Now to compare Sweden and the USA. Goaltending is in favor of the USA. Brimsek is a borderline top 10 G, and Barrasso is around 25th. Lundqvist is borderline top 20, and Lindmark is probably in the 40-50 range. Sweden's Cs are vastly superior (Sundin had to be moved to the RW!), but the reverse is true for the USA's RWs (Amonte moved to the left). LW looks like slight advantage to Sweden.

On D, Sweden's top pairing of Lidstrom - Karlsson is superior, but it looks like that's the only advantage Sweden has at D. USA's bottom four looks better to me.

So who do you got?

So I see that you have Brett Hull as a Canadian. Good for you!
 

MaxV

Registered User
Nov 6, 2006
4,888
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New York, NY
USA has certainly made up a lot of ground starting from early 90s.

Still, their hockey program was really mediocre until about mid-80s.

Sweden’s program was booming earlier and there isn’t that big of a difference between them now, if at all. Clearly, historically Sweden is ahead of USA.

Now, Czech Republic. This one is tougher to judge, since Slovakia has certainly helped them before the 90s. They did have a golden generation in the 90s though, which certainly helps their cause.
 

DDRhockey

Hockeyfan since 1986
Oct 11, 2017
3,385
1,630
A better team Sweden

Sweden

Markus Naslund - Peter Forsberg - Daniel Alfredsson
Henrik Zetterberg - Mats sundin - Hakan Loob
Mats Naslund - Nicklas backstrom - Kent nilsson
Daniel Sedin - Henrik Sedin - Thomas steen


Nicklas Lidstrom - Erik Karlsson
Borje Salming - Victor Hedman
Ulf Samuelsson - calle johansson

Henrik Lundqvist
Pelle lindberg
 

Johnny Engine

Moderator
Jul 29, 2009
4,972
2,352
A better team Sweden

Sweden

Markus Naslund - Peter Forsberg - Daniel Alfredsson
Henrik Zetterberg - Mats sundin - Hakan Loob
Mats Naslund - Nicklas backstrom - Kent nilsson
Daniel Sedin - Henrik Sedin - Thomas steen


Nicklas Lidstrom - Erik Karlsson
Borje Salming - Victor Hedman
Ulf Samuelsson - calle johansson

Henrik Lundqvist
Pelle lindberg

I'm not sure you're helping Sweden's standing in this comparison by disregarding every early non-NHL Swede on the lineup that was originally posted.
As MaxV noted, the athletes they produced prior to the 80s is an advantage they hold over the States.
 

lamini

Registered User
Nov 30, 2011
444
287
Prostějov
Im curious why you think Czechs are still in contention. Their defence looks significantly weaker than those of sweden and the usa even with the addition of bubla. Both the Swedes and americans have three Ds that are at minimum top 30 while the czechs best is around 50th or 40th if you want to be generous.

The czech forwards even if you argue theyre the best, it doesnt look like theyre ahead by much. Is it Hasek thats the difference maker then?

The problem with ranking of Czech defenders (and players in general) is that the best ones are from before they could go to NHL. When making those rankings most voters will go with the proven guy over the one with many what ifs. (like Chara being ranked as best Czechoslovak defender ever...don't think you'd find many people in Czech republic that would agree)

Another thing is that Czechoslovakia/Czechs usually did good against teams that had more stars on the paper.

As I said ranking of czechs suffers from having only one good NHL proven generation. The best Swedes were in NHL, best US players too...ranking of many Czech players is based on lot of guessing.

Edit: Czechoslovakia/Czechs were superior to Sweden for longer than Sweden was/is superior to them, so it feels natural to expect their all time team to be also better.
 
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VMBM

And it didn't even bring me down
Sep 24, 2008
3,798
754
Helsinki, Finland
Now, Czech Republic. This one is tougher to judge, since Slovakia has certainly helped them before the 90s. They did have a golden generation in the 90s though, which certainly helps their cause.

On the other hand, until the late 1970s and 1980s (Stastny bros, Lukac, Liba, Pasek etc), there weren't that many Slovak stars, basically only Ladislav Trojak, Vladimir Dzurilla and Jozef Golonka come to mind. Of course somebody like Peter Stastny would be a big addition to the Czech team.
 

MaxV

Registered User
Nov 6, 2006
4,888
590
New York, NY
I’m a bit confused.

Are we comparing all time first teams or the quality of hockey program historically? That’s not the same.
 

Bluesguru

Registered User
Aug 10, 2014
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St. Louis
Taking history out of the equation, and just talking about the production of kids today. I would think USA is arguably number 2 behind Canada.
 

Pominville Knows

Registered User
Sep 28, 2012
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Down Under
Well, both USA and Sweden are clearly better than the Czech Republic right now.

But all-time? I'd still vote for either Czech Republic or Sweden. The Czechs were ahead until the early/mid-1980s, Sweden has generally been better since that. USA became a real contender only in the 1990s (no need to bring up The Miracle, heh).

Jiri Bubla on Team Czech?
In 1974/75 Sweden had 11 players over in the NHL or WHA and that number just kept climbing after that. Not that i claim we were better than the Soviets at any given time, but we saw in 1987 at the Worlds that when we got most of our players gathered we could steal a championship from them every now and then. I think we became as good as not only the Czechs but also Czechoslovakia earlier than anytime during the eighties.
 
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VMBM

And it didn't even bring me down
Sep 24, 2008
3,798
754
Helsinki, Finland
In 1974/75 Sweden had 11 players over in the NHL or WHA and that number just kept climbing after that. Not that i claim we were better than the Soviets at any given time, but we saw in 1987 at the Worlds that when we got most of our players gathered we could steal a championship from them every now and then. I think we became as good as not only the Czechs but also Czechoslovakia earlier than anytime during the eighties.

Well, I disagree.

The WHA, come on. Even Finland had quite a few WHA players from 1974/75 on, and I would never claim that Finland was ahead of the Czechs before, say, the late '90s/early '00s or so. How many Czechs/Slovaks would have played in the NHL and/or WHA if they had been free to go? I think we are talking about dozens of players.
 
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