Blue Jays Discussion: Things happening this winter! (Jays sign Ryu, Shaw)

[Discoverer]

Also: one New York writer voting for only Jeter is way, way more egregious than one person not voting for Jeter.

 

[NeverGoingToWin]

There are a few writers that did that.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

He's 6th, not 3rd. And the 6th best SS should not be a unanimous HoF. He's a HoF no doubt, but even suggesting unanimous is ridiculous when none of the 5 above him were.

Due respect to Honus Wagner and George Davis...I should not be agest. I was limiting my evaluation to a slightly more modern sample. In regards to the bolded, how many of the five ahead of Jeter have multiple world series championships?

The behavior listed here from Yankee fans is the kind of thing you'd expect from a Wayne-Gretzky level talent... And as you point out here, he's not even 1st amount shortstops in anything. I'm not arguing he doesn't belong in the HOF, I'm arguing that people STILL act like he was THE defining player of his generation. He's not.

Hate the Yankees fans\media and their shtick; don't discount the player's accomplishments.

As usual with these things, it depends on your definition of "overrated". In general, I would say he is overrated because he's so often deified in the media and treated as some inner-circle superstar. He was a fantastic player, but among Hall of Famers he's not in some special tier.

He's on the same level as a guy like Barry Larkin, who was a superior player but was held back by injuries and didn't have the same team success.

That's fair. And I love Barry, but Jeter was the best player, at the most valuable position, on a world series champion three times. In one of the two years he was not their best player and they won, he was world series MVP. He is also the post-season all time leader in hits, doubles, triples, runs scored, 3rd in home runs, and 4th in RBI. Winning and team success has to enter the equation at some point.

 

[hoc123]

Baseball America's top 100 is out. Three Jays made it on the list

7. Nate Pearson
29. Jordan Groshans
61. Simeon Woods Richardson

 

[phillipmike]

Baseball America's top 100 is out. Three Jays made it on the list

7. Nate Pearson
29. Jordan Groshans
61. Simeon Woods Richardson

2020 Top 100 MLB Prospects

7) Nate Pearson | RHP
ETA: 2020
Final 2019 Ranking: 7
Tools: Fastball: 80 | Curveball: 45 | Slider: 60 | Changeup: 55 | Control: 55
2019 Average Fastball Velo: 97
Skinny: Pearson’s workload was managed by alternating five- and two-inning starts before July 24, when the restrictions were lifted and he started going deeper into games. He tossed at least five frames in each start after that date to close out the season. Armed with a fastball that touches triple digits, Pearson works with a plus slider and a changeup that has trended positively and projects as plus as well. Pearson has the body and stuff to sit at the front of Toronto’s rotation in the near future.

29) Jordan Groshans | SS
ETA: 2022
Final 2019 Ranking: 37
Tools: Hit: 60 | Power: 60 | Run: 50 | Fielding: 50 | Arm: 60
2019 Average Exit Velo: 89
Skinny: A foot injury ended Groshans’ season after 23 games last year, but he’s expected to be ready for the start of spring training. A gifted hitter with growing power, expect Groshans to rise quickly if he stays healthy.

61) Simeon Woods Richardson | RHP
ETA: 2022
Final 2019 Ranking: Unranked
Tools: Fastball: 60 | Curveball: 50 | Slider: 55 | Changeup: 50 | Control: 70
2019 Average Fastball Velo: 93
Skinny: One of the prizes received by Toronto in the Marcus Stroman trade, Woods Richardson mixes an intriguing arsenal of four average or better pitches with impeccable control. He’ll pitch all of 2020 as a 19-year-old and could find himself on the verge of making the big leagues by season’s end.

Pearson is where i expected. Possibly could be higher

Groshans is a little high for what i expect not because of talent but i thought they would punish his ranking due to his injuries last year. He might be a top 15 prospect if he wasnt hurt.

And wow thats aggressive on SWR in term of ranking and predicting he could make the team at the end of the year if he continues. It is definitely deserved but never thought any publication would go this high so soon. However, it probably isnt a surprise if he was ranked where he should have been last season which was in the 90s.

Every MLB Prospect Who Missed The 2020 Top 100

Just Missed

Alejandro Kirk (the only Blue Jay among 5 prospects that just barely missed)
Alek Manoah
Orelvis Martinez
Gabriel Moreno
Adam Kloffenstein
Eric Pardinho

2019 Top 100 MLB Prospects

At this point last year we had 7;

1. Vladdy
8. Bichette
42. Jansen
70. Pearson
84. Pardinho
89. Groshans
91. K. Smith

Vladdy, Bichette and Jansen graduated. Pearson and Groshans stayed on a rocketed up the board. Pardinho dropped due to injury. Smith dropped due to being horrible. SWR was added.

 

[phillipmike]

Vladdy's cousin

 

[TheTotalPackage]

The ridiculous thing is there is only one unanimous HoF player. The idea that no-brainer HoF players are left off ballots because some voter thinks that they shouldn't be a unanimous is so stupid.

Completely agree.

Cal Ripken Jr. and subsequently Ken Griffey Jr. not receiving unanimous votes was enough to make the whole system look like a farce to me. Everyone knows these guys are slam dunk Hall of Famers and two of the greatest of all-time. For a writer in Boston and/or New York let's say to not vote for Ripken Jr. because he played for a division rival is petty beyond comprehension.

 

[Discoverer]

Winning and team success has to enter the equation at some point.

I don't like to completely discount it, but I put that really, really low on the list of Hall of Fame-worthy personal accomplishments.

 

[The Nic]

Groshans+Pardinho+Orelvis Martinez+ Teoscar Hernandez for Lindor. Sign Betts. Guerrero Jr. to 1B, Biggio to outfield

2021

1. Biggio
2. Bichette
3. Betts
4. Guerrero Jr.
5. Lindor
6. Gurriel Jr.
7. Shaw
8. Tellez/Grichuck
9. Jansen

1. Pearson
2. Ryu
3. Anderson
4. Monoah/Kay/Borucki/Woods Richardson
5. Roark

Has Rogers sold the Blue Jays? Only way this could happen. Our Cleveland boys are much more likely to go after Kipnis than Lindor.

 

[phillipmike]

 

[Suntouchable13]

I don't like to completely discount it, but I put that really, really low on the list of Hall of Fame-worthy personal accomplishments.

If he was on Toronto, for example, he would have had 0 rings. Or multiple other teams that did not win

 

[canucksfan]

 

[Lightsol]

I don't like to completely discount it, but I put that really, really low on the list of Hall of Fame-worthy personal accomplishments.

Doubly so when we're talking about the late 90's-2000 New York Yankees, AKA "The most 'roided up team money could buy"...

 

[Lightsol]

If he was on Toronto, for example, he would have had 0 rings. Or multiple other teams that did not win

A great example my father likes to use when talking about how overrated Jeter is; Alan Trammell spent his entire career playing for the Tigers. His career numbers are better than Jeter's, but he almost didn't make it into the HOF. His 3B partner was Lou Whitaker, and the two of them were the most dominant left side in baseball for a decade, but Whitaker isn't in the HOF.
But Yankee fans are whining that Jeter didn't get in with a unanimous first vote...
The point is, although Jeter is HOF level, he wouldn't get NEAR the amount of attention he gets if he played on any team other than the Yankees.

 

[phillipmike]

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

If he was on Toronto, for example, he would have had 0 rings. Or multiple other teams that did not win

Def 0 with the Jays. This much is clear.

Doubly so when we're talking about the late 90's-2000 New York Yankees, AKA "The most 'roided up team money could buy"...

I get it. They beat the breaks off the Jays for two decades. It hurts.

Also, who's quote is that lol.

A great example my father likes to use when talking about how overrated Jeter is; Alan Trammell spent his entire career playing for the Tigers. His career numbers are better than Jeter's, but he almost didn't make it into the HOF. His 3B partner was Lou Whitaker, and the two of them were the most dominant left side in baseball for a decade, but Whitaker isn't in the HOF.
But Yankee fans are whining that Jeter didn't get in with a unanimous first vote...
The point is, although Jeter is HOF level, he wouldn't get NEAR the amount of attention he gets if he played on any team other than the Yankees.

Yikes. I recommend your father looks these kinds of things up instead of just rambling aimlessly.

Jeter: .310/.377/.440 (260 HR, .817 OPS)
Trammel: .285/.352/.415 (185 HR, .767 OPS)

 

[theaub]

The point is, although Jeter is HOF level, he wouldn't get NEAR the amount of attention he gets if he played on any team other than the Yankees.

There's a pro-Jeter argument in this though. Sure, he wouldn't be as much of a household name as if he played his entire career in Arizona, but it also meant that he was the guy in the largest team-specific media market in North American sports for 15 years and thrived on it.

 

[ChuckNorris4Cup]

I was prepared to wait out 1 more year with the Jays mini rebuild, 1 more year of testing out some of the young guys still getting them more comfortable in the bigs, trying out some new ones here and there and okay with if they have a losing season again to just see what we have in the system. But the approach they're taking now seems like they're ready to bump it up a year and try and compete now instead of wait that 1 more year like they originally anticipated. I'm okay with that I feel they have a great offensive lineup which can win them games, it just was missing good depth pitching, I know they've been addressing that issue all off season so that's good they know they're weakness and are trying to improve, so hopefully it pays off, still think they could use another legit starter, and more middle depth, but to be really competitive, but they can always hopefully acquire them if needed, time will tell.

As long as Derek Fisher isn't there, then will have a chance, please no Fisher take your loss on this one and move on please.

 

[Discoverer]

Yikes. I recommend your father looks these kinds of things up instead of just rambling aimlessly.

Jeter: .310/.377/.440 (260 HR, .817 OPS)
Trammel: .285/.352/.415 (185 HR, .767 OPS)

Trammell's another one who, like Larkin, was a more dominant player than Jeter but suffered from a lack of health/longevity. Jeter's post-season accolades should absolutely give him a significant bump, but again, that comes down mainly to him being on the Yankees and them being on franchises who only made the playoffs twice during their careers.

Career fWAR/600 PA
Larkin - 4.44
Trammell - 4.08
Smith - 3.76
Jeter - 3.48

 

[phillipmike]

 

[Anthrax442]

I like this

 

[Da Cool Rula]

A great example my father likes to use when talking about how overrated Jeter is; Alan Trammell spent his entire career playing for the Tigers. His career numbers are better than Jeter's, but he almost didn't make it into the HOF. His 3B partner was Lou Whitaker, and the two of them were the most dominant left side in baseball for a decade, but Whitaker isn't in the HOF.
But Yankee fans are whining that Jeter didn't get in with a unanimous first vote...
The point is, although Jeter is HOF level, he wouldn't get NEAR the amount of attention he gets if he played on any team other than the Yankees.

Lou Whitaker was a 2B

 

[The Nemesis]

sure, why not. He's better than Drury, at least.

 

[Discoverer]

sure, why not. He's better than Drury, at least.

I don't mind it, but I would prefer someon who can play SS. They have enough versatile guys who can play everywhere but SS.

Just give Espinal the utility role.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Trammell's another one who, like Larkin, was a more dominant player than Jeter but suffered from a lack of health/longevity. Jeter's post-season accolades should absolutely give him a significant bump, but again, that comes down mainly to him being on the Yankees and them being on franchises who only made the playoffs twice during their careers.

Career fWAR/600 PA
Larkin - 4.44
Trammell - 4.08
Smith - 3.76
Jeter - 3.48

Great point. And listen, as a Nomar Garciaparra lover (who was better, at peak, than Jeter, quite easily), I'm well aware that the argument for Jeter is indeed his longevity and durability.

That said.....weird rambly guy said "his career numbers are better than Jeters" in reference to Trammel. That's just...not true....

Then we had other rambly guying citing steroids. I mean...we're really stretching and cutting to try to discount the dude. It feels weird that I've taken this side of the argument because I absolutely loathe anything Yankee.