Speculation: These young Leafs Get branded for taking Boston 7 games from being down 3-1???????

stickty111

Registered User
Jan 23, 2017
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I do so enjoy how Gardiner cost us the series for one bad game and our sieve of a goaltender who completely feel apart in game 7 and leaked bad goals throughout the series go's unmentioned

If Andersen plays like that no Dcore is going to be good enough to win a cup
Andersen has gotten a lot of criticism so where is the he goes unmentioned coming from.
Gardiner was bad, you cant blame Andersen for that. Same way Andersen was bad, and you cant blame Gardiner for that.
 

Liminality

Registered User
Oct 22, 2008
13,366
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Gardiner is not only bad. He's arguably not even an NHL calibre defenceman most of the time.
Yikes.

I think Gardiner can stay if we limit his EV time. That means getting a top D to make sure he gets less ice time.

Signing Gardiner to a new contract after his expires? That's another story.
 

Kiwi

Registered User
Mar 5, 2016
20,980
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The Naki
Andersen has gotten a lot of criticism so where is the he goes unmentioned coming from.
Gardiner was bad, you cant blame Andersen for that. Same way Andersen was bad, and you cant blame Gardiner for that.

Then why does Gardiner get blamed and people want him run out of town and Andersen get a free pass?

The double standard is bull**** and completely moronic

Does anybody have any argument we're better getting rid of Gardiner? in any way based on anything other than emotion?
 

Nineteen67

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Dec 12, 2017
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How does Gardiner being bad preclude the fact that Cox and Simmons are both a horse’s azz
 

Morbo

The Annihilator
Jan 14, 2003
27,100
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Toronto
In retrospect, it is kind of amazing we made it to game 7 against that calibre of opponent with the defence corps we have.
 

TOGuy14

Registered User
Dec 30, 2010
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Toronto
All the slimey media like Kypreos and Cox and Simmons are back after that great series.

You have all been taken right to the cleaners . This is the time these pieces of crap pounce when emotion is running high.

All you have to realize is that beating Boston 2 straight after being down 3-1 was pure battle. These guys did not quit, or whine, or pout, or make excuses. They were disappointed because they wanted it so bad.

I'm goong to agree with Gardiner and blame the game 7 loss on him though. He destroyed our bench with his gambles.

Trade him, give the minutes to Dermott and lets just move on with this build.

The media is playing on fans emotion directly after a loss. Don't bite! This is a good team that will be even better defensively next year, while getting younger in the process.

Boston just destroys t-bay tonight ha. Don't let how good Boston was in the series against us let you conclude that we lost because we are bad.


Lots of emotion and trouble makers out to cause trouble it seems to me.

HFBoards and the media are both dumb trolls.

Out of all the series in the first round the Leafs were the only team to go to seven games, yet somehow our entire core are chokers / not good in the playoffs etc.

I haven't read a single article ripping on Hischier / Getzlaf / Perry / Gibson / Carter / Doughty /Ghost / Provo etc
 

mikeyz

Registered User
Dec 3, 2013
7,206
6,227
No, there's nothing you can argue that even remotely points to him not being an NHL caliber defenseman.

Yes there is.

He's a complete and total tire fire defensively, a turn over machine, He's softer then a baby's ass, he has no hockey IQ and makes the same boneheaded mistakes over and over and over again.

I will admit that he's a fantastic skater, I will give him that (Hence my "most of the time comment"), but, the moment he loses a step in that department, he will officially be done.
 

Gabriel426

Registered User
Jun 30, 2015
16,522
10,128
HFBoards and the media are both dumb trolls.

Out of all the series in the first round the Leafs were the only team to go to seven games, yet somehow our entire core are chokers / not good in the playoffs etc.

I haven't read a single article ripping on Hischier / Getzlaf / Perry / Gibson / Carter / Doughty /Ghost / Provo etc

You do know that most of the chokers comment came from Leafs fans. Maybe some of them are trolls pretending to be Leafs fans.
 

Nithoniniel

Registered User
Sep 7, 2012
20,913
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Skövde, Sweden
Yes there is.

He's a complete and total tire fire defensively, a turn over machine, He's softer then a baby's ass, he has no hockey IQ and makes the same boneheaded mistakes over and over and over again.

I will admit that he's a fantastic skater, I will give him that (Hence my "most of the time comment"), but, the moment he loses a step in that department, he will officially be done.
Just to start off, he's a 50 point top end offensive d-man who plays among the most even strength minutes in the league and does it to good to great effect. That sentence alone should be enough to kill the discussion. Gardiner plays the most minutes for us, and with Gardiner on the ice we are a winning team. That's pretty much irregardless of who his partner is, or which forward line is on. The only time he has struggled has been when he's been put in a clear cut #1 role.

As for his defense, he does the above while being on for less goals, less scoring chances, less shots against. With him on the ice, we keep opponents to the outside well, we protect the slot well, and we prevent zone entries well. It's kind of amazing that for year after year, Gardiner plays big minutes and the opponents just can't seem to score much against him, despite him being a "complete and total tire fire defensively", eh? That's kind of like saying that a perpetual 60 point forward is actually completely inept offensively.

Next thing, if you use what micro stats are available as a proxy for how many plays he makes, he is almost in the same percentile there as he is in arena-adjusted turnover rate. Which basically means that he doesn't even turn it over more than average player per play he makes. So then you'll probably say that his turnovers are much worse, as people often say. But like I noted above, it doesn't lead to opponents getting much better chances so either the turnovers are not quite as bad and numerous as they seem, or they disappear in a sample consisting of much more good plays.

Fourth item, players with no hockey iq don't reach NHL as anything else than fourth line enforcers. People with below average hockey iq doesn't become influential players. So yeah, he's soft and he makes dumb mistakes. That's an argument for him not being perfect, not for him being too bad to play in this league. And we all know he's not perfect, we all see him making mistakes and playing soft, and we all know that his bad games are worse than most players. But his average game is also better than most, and that's what counts.

Oh, and as a final point. The Passing Project showed some of their work on twitter not long ago. Gardiner showed up in several categories as one of the most effective passers among d-men in the whole league. He's got more qualities than just his skating.
 
Last edited:

mikeyz

Registered User
Dec 3, 2013
7,206
6,227
Just to start off, he's a 50 point top end offensive d-man who plays among the most even strength minutes in the league and does it to good to great effect. That sentence alone should be enough to kill the discussion. Gardiner plays the most minutes for us, and with Gardiner on the ice we are a winning team. That's pretty much irregardless of who his partner is, or which forward line is on. The only time he has struggled has been when he's been put in a clear cut #1 role.

As for his defense, he does the above while being on for less goals, less scoring chances, less shots against. With him on the ice, we keep opponents to the outside well, we protect the slot well, and we prevent zone entries well. It's kind of amazing that for year after year, Gardiner plays big minutes and the opponents just can't seem to score much against him, despite him being a "complete and total tire fire defensively", eh? That's kind of like saying that a perpetual 60 point forward is actually completely inept offensively.

Next thing, if you use what micro stats are available as a proxy for how many plays he makes, he is almost in the same percentile there as he is in arena-adjusted turnover rate. Which basically means that he doesn't even turn it over more than average player per play he makes. So then you'll probably say that his turnovers are much worse, as people often say. But like I noted above, it doesn't lead to opponents getting much better chances so either the turnovers are not quite as bad and numerous as they seem, or they disappear in a sample consisting of much more good plays.

Fourth item, players with no hockey iq don't reach NHL as anything else than fourth line enforcers. People with below average hockey iq doesn't become influential players. So yeah, he's soft and he makes dumb mistakes. That's an argument for him not being perfect, not for him being too bad to play in this league. And we all know he's not perfect, we all see him making mistakes and playing soft, and we all know that his bad games are worse than most players. But his average game is also better than most, and that's what counts.

Oh, and as a final point. The Passing Project showed some of their work on twitter not long ago. Gardiner showed up in several categories as one of the most effective passers among d-men in the whole league. He's got more qualities than just his skating.


Okay. Let me ask you something. Where do you end and Gardiner begins?

I am asking because you seem to have your head so far up his ass.
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
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51,520
Watching the Lightning, the Leafs young players need to up their courage coefficient.
 

thewave

Registered User
Jun 17, 2011
39,884
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TB game one came out playing like we did. Almost as if they read my posts during that series they came out game 2 playing heavy with urgency hitting. They won, they are doing it again.. they are winning.

Am I a guru?
 

yubbers

Grown Menzez
May 1, 2013
36,053
5,039
Watching the Lightning, the Leafs young players need to up their courage coefficient.
If only we had a big tough guy with decent hands to help them play with more confidence and courage. Would of come in real handy in that Boston series. We should look for one. :p
 

mikeyz

Registered User
Dec 3, 2013
7,206
6,227
Yes, if only I ignored facts and had nothing to bring but argumentum ad hominem instead.

Lol. Ohhh man. You kill me kiddo.

You provided no facts but Gardiner brownie hound drivel that made absolutely zero sense.
 

yubbers

Grown Menzez
May 1, 2013
36,053
5,039
It's almost like young superstars pad other players stats. No surprise the 2 most gutless players on the team had career years in JVR and Gardiner. They don't lead the way. They just grab on like those things attached to sharks
 

Nithoniniel

Registered User
Sep 7, 2012
20,913
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Skövde, Sweden
It's almost like young superstars pad other players stats. No surprise the 2 most gutless players on the team had career years in JVR and Gardiner. They don't lead the way. They just grab on like those things attached to sharks
They definitely helped them put up some points. JVR didn't have a career year though. It might actually have been his worst season in five years.
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
77,850
51,520
If only we had a big tough guy with decent hands to help them play with more confidence and courage. Would of come in real handy in that Boston series. We should look for one. :p

Just watch how guys like Brayden Point attack. Puts some of our better kids to shame.
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
77,850
51,520
Also, pound for pound JVR is probably one of the less physical players in the game. He doesn’t exactly exert any physical toll on the opposition. He’d be a lot more effective if he just upped his physical play to an Alex Killorn level.
 

diceman934

Help is on the way.
Jul 31, 2010
17,317
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NHL player factory
Just to start off, he's a 50 point top end offensive d-man who plays among the most even strength minutes in the league and does it to good to great effect. That sentence alone should be enough to kill the discussion. Gardiner plays the most minutes for us, and with Gardiner on the ice we are a winning team. That's pretty much irregardless of who his partner is, or which forward line is on. The only time he has struggled has been when he's been put in a clear cut #1 role.

As for his defense, he does the above while being on for less goals, less scoring chances, less shots against. With him on the ice, we keep opponents to the outside well, we protect the slot well, and we prevent zone entries well. It's kind of amazing that for year after year, Gardiner plays big minutes and the opponents just can't seem to score much against him, despite him being a "complete and total tire fire defensively", eh? That's kind of like saying that a perpetual 60 point forward is actually completely inept offensively.

Next thing, if you use what micro stats are available as a proxy for how many plays he makes, he is almost in the same percentile there as he is in arena-adjusted turnover rate. Which basically means that he doesn't even turn it over more than average player per play he makes. So then you'll probably say that his turnovers are much worse, as people often say. But like I noted above, it doesn't lead to opponents getting much better chances so either the turnovers are not quite as bad and numerous as they seem, or they disappear in a sample consisting of much more good plays.

Fourth item, players with no hockey iq don't reach NHL as anything else than fourth line enforcers. People with below average hockey iq doesn't become influential players. So yeah, he's soft and he makes dumb mistakes. That's an argument for him not being perfect, not for him being too bad to play in this league. And we all know he's not perfect, we all see him making mistakes and playing soft, and we all know that his bad games are worse than most players. But his average game is also better than most, and that's what counts.

Oh, and as a final point. The Passing Project showed some of their work on twitter not long ago. Gardiner showed up in several categories as one of the most effective passers among d-men in the whole league. He's got more qualities than just his skating.
Great post...

Gardiner is a top caliber NHL dman how anyone can say he is not NHL caliber is nuts.

Let’s hope we can resign him to a cap friendly deal. Right around the Rielly cap hit would be great and it would make him a very valuable asset should we choose to trade him at some point.

Far to many times in game 7 his playing partner failed to give him an outlet option.
Gardiner and Rielly would be a great first pairing if we had another top 4 d man. If Dermot could step up and carry a second pair out D would be very good.
 
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IPS

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
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Gardiner may be the best example of how stats will never, ever tell the whole story about what a player actually is.

The guy is absolute shit defensively. He goes through stretches where he looks serviceable, but they never last. Eventually, his true colors will come shining through. You do not want this guy in any sort of key role on your blueline, because if you do, game 7 happens where he hemorrhages shots and goals against.

He's good offensively and he's great at transition, no doubt. But he severely lacks ability where it matters most as a defensemen. Watching opposing teams pressure him is absolutely hilarious, he just completely folds like a lawn chair and hands them the puck.

I'm wondering if the suffers from anxiety of some kind (I'm not trying to be mean here, just genuinely curious). When things get tough you can literally see the panic on his face and in his body language. A good sports psychologist could do wonders for him.
 

IPS

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
15,462
24,488
Just watch how guys like Brayden Point attack. Puts some of our better kids to shame.
We have our very own Mitch Marner as a practical example.

You really have to wonder what the rest of the team thinks watching Mitch Marner get in there and take the punishment while gutless pukes like Gardiner, JVR and Nylander avoid contact like the plague.
 

Ziggdiezan

Registered User
Apr 10, 2015
10,847
5,676
It's weird how Gardiner stopping at least 4 guaranteed goals with a stick check, poke check etc was ignored this series when talking about his defensive play.

Also odd how Rielly got no flack for his game 1 and 2 which were arguably worse than Gardiner's game 7. He was beyond horrible.
 

Tonka

OFFSIDE
Apr 8, 2007
9,776
245
Sure Gardiner screwed up, but at least a couple of those shots were save-able. That McAvoy goal should have been stopped, and that point shot should have called for better reaction. In the Leafs losses, Andersen gave up 5, 7, 3, 7. Like come on lol. We are never going to be contenders if this is the goaltending we rely on.

This whole "young Leafs' is not going to work a couple years from now. Matthews going silent, Nylander going slight, these things will not be acceptable in 2020. Learn and be better next time around.

I can't give credit to a Leafs team from coming back from 3-1, when they put themselves in that position. All that tells me, if their backs are not agains the wall, that same effort will not show up.
 

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