Speculation: Theory about odd D-Pairings tonight

[therealkoho]

Hard to know because Babs is stubborn. Holl can't play the stretch pass game. It is not his game. If short pass is not there he will skate it up.

Much like Leivo's down low forecheck and puck possession game was not Babs calling from a forward standpoint.

yeah not to sure exactly what Holl is at this point other then the number 7/8

I liked Leivo and thought he had a really good game for a bottom 6 type winger(I was hoping for more when he first came up), I have no idea what the problem was, I have zero proof but I have a feeling it may have been his relationship with certain team mate(s) and his overall likeability factor

 

[BlueBaron]

I read the other day Babs said Rielly is staying on the Left side so I think we'll see Muz there until next year.

Once he is comfortable I think we'll see
Rielly-Muz
Gardiner-Hainsey
Dermott-Zaitsev

I would not be shocked if we add a RHD and Zaitsev is either moved or fighting for Ice time until next year.

 

[2022 Stanley Cup]

I read the other day Babs said Rielly is staying on the Left side so I think we'll see Muz there until next year.

Once he is comfortable I think we'll see
Rielly-Muz
Gardiner-Hainsey
Dermott-Zaitsev

I would not be shocked if we add a RHD and Zaitsev is either moved or fighting for Ice time until next year.

I don't think we will ever see Gards-Hainsey. I think it'll stick to Gards-Zaitsev (please no) or Gards-Dermott (please yes) and then Muzzin-Zaitsev to see how those two can do together. Maybe Muzzin will be the one to improve Zaitsev's play? Worth a shot at least.

 

[BlueBaron]

I don't think we will ever see Gards-Hainsey. I think it'll stick to Gards-Zaitsev (please no) or Gards-Dermott (please yes) and then Muzzin-Zaitsev to see how those two can do together. Maybe Muzzin will be the one to improve Zaitsev's play? Worth a shot at least.

Why don't you think so?

It kind of makes sense if he was bumped from the top pair he'd go down to the next, also Gards needs the stabalizing force. Playing Dermott on his off side seems like a stretch and a rush job at the same time.

 

[therealkoho]

I read the other day Babs said Rielly is staying on the Left side so I think we'll see Muz there until next year.

Once he is comfortable I think we'll see
Rielly-Muz
Gardiner-Hainsey
Dermott-Zaitsev

I would not be shocked if we add a RHD and Zaitsev is either moved or fighting for Ice time until next year.

babs has Gardiner and Dermott(playing the right side) as the 3rd pair atm and Reilly and Hainsey as the top pair, Muzz and Zaits play the 3/4...this from Seigel at the Leafs skate

 

[Nithoniniel]

Phaneuf when he got to the Leafs couldn't shoot nor skate anymore, didn't impress anyone, you of course maybe being the exception, and wanted out because of his "relationship" with Leafs fans. It was a cap deal for both teams, not because Ottawa was so impressed with his play and in fact we're still paying one last contract out on the Marlies.

Yes, Phaneuf didn't impress anyone, did horribly in his #1 role here and had reportedly no interest in him due to his play and his huge contract the summer before he was traded. That somehow changed enough that we didn't even have to retain salary.

Look, we obviously will not agree on this. I'm pretty comfortable with my position since the tangible evidence is pretty overwhelmingly in favor of my position. But I'm going to take a step back here because I think you might be right with your original claim, that he's not easy to play with. He'd certainly be a partner that keeps you on your toes. But how it feels and the results that comes of it aren't necessarily the same thing.

 

[Spirit of 67]

I have a feeling Dubas is up to something.

Lets assume that Hainsey isnt actually going to stay with Rielly, and instead he is a placeholder for this game. Dubas made Babs split the Gardiner - Zaitsev pairing, and to bolster depth he wants them to be spread out, and also to see if they work together as a bottom 4

Muzzin - Zaitsev
Gardiner - Dermott

or

Gardiner - Muzzin
Dermott - Zaitsev

my theory is that dubas wants to see how these guys mesh together because he is working on getting a top pairing RHD for Rielly

you could also do

Rielly - Muzzin
Gardiner - ?
Dermott - Zaitsev

but I think Dubas is doing this to see how it would all work together

thoughts?

How do you know?

 

[2022 Stanley Cup]

Why don't you think so?

It kind of makes sense if he was bumped from the top pair he'd go down to the next, also Gards needs the stabalizing force. Playing Dermott on his off side seems like a stretch and a rush job at the same time.

I think that Hainsey will be used as a stabilizing presence with either Rielly or Dermott. It's also just how Babs has been coaching. Also someone with Gardiner's risk should be paired with someone that has the speed to close a gap when necessary.
Yeah it might be a stretch to put him as a RD but it will be on a 3rd pairing alongside Gardiner and it would allow for the two of them to capitalize on smarts and speed to hopefully keep the puck out of our zone. Also Dermott>Zaitsev so Dermott will probably be better for Gardiner.

 

[m1ker]

why

Those defense pairings make it look like babs wants Muzzin to play more offensively and Dermott to focus more on defense. Muzzin likes to join the rush so thats probably why he won't be paired with Rielly

 

[BlueBaron]

babs has Gardiner and Dermott(playing the right side) as the 3rd pair atm and Reilly and Hainsey as the top pair, Muzz and Zaits play the 3/4...this from Seigel at the Leafs skate

Yeah but we also know this is just Muz settling in and learning the system. Nothing we see last game means anything.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

yeah not to sure exactly what Holl is at this point other then the number 7/8

I liked Leivo and thought he had a really good game for a bottom 6 type winger(I was hoping for more when he first came up), I have no idea what the problem was, I have zero proof but I have a feeling it may have been his relationship with certain team mate(s) and his overall likeability factor

Holl is signed for next season at 675K so it is very likely he will be like Leivo 2 years on roster as an emergency back-up collecting salary but only playing as emergency. Holl seems to have agreed with it so I am ok with it too. It did not affect Leivo's playing ability either. He is playing his game this year with us and Vancouver. Personally I don't think either of these guys play like Babs likes best. These are big strong guys who are decent up/down skaters but weaker east/west skaters. Babs likes the Euro skaters like Rosen. I firmly believe Rosen will be in top 6 next season and Holl will be #7. My theory with it ---- Babs program has not worked in 1st round of playoffs since 2013 when Detroit moved to Eastern conference. In the west he was a dynamo winner. But so far in the eastern conference he can't get out of the first round. Lets hope it changes this year.

 

[therealkoho]

Yes, Phaneuf didn't impress anyone, did horribly in his #1 role here and had reportedly no interest in him due to his play and his huge contract the summer before he was traded. That somehow changed enough that we didn't even have to retain salary.

Look, we obviously will not agree on this. I'm pretty comfortable with my position since the tangible evidence is pretty overwhelmingly in favor of my position. But I'm going to take a step back here because I think you might be right with your original claim, that he's not easy to play with. He'd certainly be a partner that keeps you on your toes. But how it feels and the results that comes of it aren't necessarily the same thing.

Serious question Nate, did you ever play competitive hockey?

I was a forward(mostlyRW) and there was nothing i hated worse then playing with a guy, who constantly put passes into your skates and occasionally sent you a juicy suicide pass, after a while you really started to get the feeling that the guy if he wasn't completely incompetent or flat out stupid, had some sort of weird passive-aggressive thing going on, not out of dislike but just to make himself look better. Next thing you know no one wants to play with the guy which creates problems in and of itself.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Holl is signed for next season at 675K so it is very likely he will be like Leivo 2 years on roster as an emergency back-up collecting salary but only playing as emergency.

Thing is what good is he doing anyone but rotting in the pressbox. They can easily call someone up who has been playing.
Not a fan of how they do this

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Why don't you think so?

It kind of makes sense if he was bumped from the top pair he'd go down to the next, also Gards needs the stabalizing force. Playing Dermott on his off side seems like a stretch and a rush job at the same time.

Not surprising. Gards not in plans next year so shift him to 3rd pair. and lets see what Z can do uncoupled from Gards. By end of this year we will know. Personally I don't see it from Z but I am prepared to give him some games to see if his play improves.
Dermott will be forced up to 2nd pair and lets hope he can do it. Personally i think he will be ok. What we lose in offense we will make up for with defense.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Serious question Nate, did you ever play competitive hockey?

I was a forward(mostlyRW) and there was nothing i hated worse then playing with a guy, who constantly put passes into your skates and occasionally sent you a juicy suicide pass, after a while you really started to get the feeling that the guy if he wasn't completely incompetent or flat out stupid, had some sort of weird passive-aggressive thing going on, not out of dislike but just to make himself look better. Next thing you know no one wants to play with the guy which creates problems in and of itself.

I'm sure you hated playing with that kind of player. I have absolutely no idea how you can come to the conclusion that Gardiner, one of the statistically most adept d-men in the league at passing, "constantly put passes into your skates." The player you describe wouldn't be able to handle NHL minutes, while Gardiner has thrived in a top four role.

And no, I did not play competitive hockey. And any time the topic is something that I think requires that experience, I will meekly sit back and listen to those of you who did. Analyzing players is not such a topic.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Is Justin Holl another Stalman can't play for Leafs but can be a good Defenceman in NY and Tampa. just wondering.

Could be. Why they would sign an AHL-all star for 2 years and then sit him in the pressbox is beyond me.
But this is what Babcock does

 

[Orfieus]

I like the Muzzin - Zaitsev pairing as I think it will be good for Zaitsev confidence to be paired with someone who is more stable

My absolute ideal pairings,

Rielly - Muzzin
Gardiner - Dermott
Hainsey - Zaitsev

 

[qqaz]

How fans make up D pairings:
"I'll put the 2 defencemen I hate the most on the bottom pair. Then I'll try to figure something out in a couple of minutes for the rest."

How an NHL coach makes up D pairings:
"I'll try to put together each pairing so they all work well. I'll try to keep each player in a slot where they are comfortable and can succeed. Then I'll adjust their usage based on how each game progresses."

Fans: "Stupid coach. I'm right!"

 

[therealkoho]

I'm sure you hated playing with that kind of player. I have absolutely no idea how you can come to the conclusion that Gardiner, one of the statistically most adept d-men in the league at passing, "constantly put passes into your skates." The player you describe wouldn't be able to handle NHL minutes, while Gardiner has thrived in a top four role.

And no, I did not play competitive hockey. And any time the topic is something that I think requires that experience, I will meekly sit back and listen to those of you who did. Analyzing players is not such a topic.

Babcock has dropped him into the 3rd pair, he may not stay there long, but he's been there many times before

Leafs play tonight

chart his passes and then keep on doing it for 9 more games...you'll see a pattern

 

[Nithoniniel]

Babcock has dropped him into the 3rd pair, he may not stay there long, but he's been there many times before

Leafs play tonight

chart his passes and then keep on doing it for 9 more games...you'll see a pattern

It's been done over several seasons before, among others by The Point, a statistical company with no inherent bias in the question. They had Gardiner as one of the best passing d-men in the game, top 5 in several categories. He had a very high amount of completed passes, and an equally impressive completion percentage. I don't need to do the work that someone has already done with better tools than you or I have access to.

Gardiner has played the most even strength minutes on the team over the last few years. He's closer to an even strength top pairing guy for us than someone who Babcock consistently uses as a third pairing guy.

 

[Nineteen67]

I get a funny feeling Babs will be vacationing in Dubas’ home town in early spring, and they’ll just happen to have a little sit down meeting while he’s there.

 

[Menzinger]

better theory - our coach is a stubborn mule.

The only way to get him to change these pairings is to take away one his toys.

 

[WilliamNylander]

If Babs listened to Dubas, Connor brown wouldn’t be playing over Moore

 

[Menzinger]

You have a weird memory dude, that 1st season earned Zaitsev a 7 year contract and while he and Rielly weren't the perfect pair, they were prodigious offensively, when they were separated and Rielly was then paired with Gardiner it didn't result in any uptick in Rielly's game, he had a pretty horrible season defensively when all was said and done, he was thrust into the #1 role, and barely hung on some nights. The upside is that this trial by fire helped mature him very quickly!

in Zaitsev's second year he was paired mostly with Gardiner, and that's when the trouble started along with the recurring ankle problems

I'm not trying to diss you in any way, but the highly talented Gardiner is a handful to play with, mainly because of the weird braincramps and recurring positioning problems in the D-zone, not to mention that second guessing he does when going D to D.

Zaitsev’s offense that rookie came from secondary assists and the PP.

Folks really exaggerate how good he was, especially at even strength

 

[ShaneFalco]

How fans make up D pairings:
"I'll put the 2 defencemen I hate the most on the bottom pair. Then I'll try to figure something out in a couple of minutes for the rest."

How an NHL coach makes up D pairings:
"I'll try to put together each pairing so they all work well. I'll try to keep each player in a slot where they are comfortable and can succeed. Then I'll adjust their usage based on how each game progresses."

Fans: "Stupid coach. I'm right!"

Except babs will play the hell out of the vet, no matter how they're playing.