Speculation: Theory about odd D-Pairings tonight

[LucicAndChong]

Haven’t had a chance to watch many leaf games this season entirely from start to finish, this was one. Nice road win! but there were some concerns in my opinion.
1. Too much reliance on Freddy. The 5-2 game is flattering given some ridiculous saves by Andy and I’ve seen that all season.
2. Defense still looks bad at times particularly Zaitsev. If only there was a way to magically subtract him and add Pesce
3. Something not right with the Matthews line. Given the recent success of the Nylander-Kadri combo, I’m inclined to keep them together. So how about bump Johnson up and move down Marleau. Johnson-Matty-Kappy could be very good

Other then that pretty happy with this one

I 100% agree, Marleau's an anchor for that line

 

[glue]

Alternatively, Babcock could've just acknowledged the train wreck pair that is Zaitsev-Gardiner.

I agree with this but I also think Muzzin Reilly were struggling a bit today. Ultimately we need to turn Zaitsev to Pesce and not lose Johnsson or Kappy...cause you know that’s realistic

 

[Buds17]

I don't doubt they're looking at trade possibilities leading up to the deadline, but I don't necessarily believe that was the intention behind the changes.

 

[PromisedLand]

Alternatively, Babcock could've just acknowledged the train wreck pair that is Zaitsev-Gardiner.

 

[PromisedLand]

Haven’t had a chance to watch many leaf games this season entirely from start to finish, this was one. Nice road win! but there were some concerns in my opinion.
1. Too much reliance on Freddy. The 5-2 game is flattering given some ridiculous saves by Andy and I’ve seen that all season.
2. Defense still looks bad at times particularly Zaitsev. If only there was a way to magically subtract him and add Pesce
3. Something not right with the Matthews line. Given the recent success of the Nylander-Kadri combo, I’m inclined to keep them together. So how about bump Johnson up and move down Marleau. Johnson-Matty-Kappy could be very good

Other then that pretty happy with this one

good teams have goalies that make ridiculous saves to keep their team in the game; every team makes mistakes every game

if you wanna look at goalies making ridiculous saves on a nightly basis:

- bolts (vasy)
- habs (price)
- preds (rinne)
- lehner (isles)
- etc...

besides preds (and may be jets) i dont see western conference games much; pretty sure its similar trend there

 

[glue]

good teams have goalies that make ridiculous saves to keep their team in the game; every team makes mistakes every game

if you wanna look at goalies making ridiculous saves on a nightly basis:

- bolts (vasy)
- habs (price)
- preds (rinne)
- lehner (isles)
- etc...

besides preds (and may be jets) i dont see western conference games much; pretty sure its similar trend there

Yeah fair point, you’re probably right, but just feels unsustainable. But like you said if those teams goalies are doing that nightly, then I guess that goes for us as well

 

[Dog]

Please trade Zaitsev even if means giving up pick. Dreadful and never put Hainsey with Dermott. Was a horrible game for them.

 

[therealkoho]

Or Zaitsev and Gardiner have been pure **** for the last while. One of the two.

funny how different Zaitsev plays when Gardiner not throwing passes into his feet, or behind him, or telegraphing then hesitating on the pass so the forchecker get's there at the same time as the puck, funny that

______________________________________________________

just to change the subject as far as this Pesce thing goes

Toronto needs RHD and has too many lefties, Canes have too many RHD and not enough lefties

solution: Toronto moves a RHD(which they don't have enough of) and acquires a lefty from a team with too many right shots

I know there is probably some kind of Dregerarian logic to it, but dang if I can see it

 

[tmlms13]

What Babcock said made perfect sense.

We're going to put players on the side that gives them the best opportunity to maximize their potential.

Rielly, Muzzin, Gardiner are your 3 best defenseman. Have them play on their better side.

Don't force people who have had success to change. The only person who has to switch sides is Dermott who I think has the lowest amount of ice time on the D

 

[Nithoniniel]

funny how different Zaitsev plays when Gardiner not throwing passes into his feet, or behind him, or telegraphing then hesitating on the pass so the forchecker get's there at the same time as the puck, funny that

Must have been why Zaitsev was crap the first season too. It was all Rielly's fault.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I 100% agree, Marleau's an anchor for that line

I think if you did a poll almost everyone would agree based on the eye test. But reality is Marleau killed Kadri and Nylander line and soon as they moved him off the line after the break it started to produce points. And Marleau is a HOFer so you can't throw him on the 4th line right? So you don't want to mess up Tavares line which is going great. So only option left is to keep him with Matty and Matty will produce even with the boat anchor. Look at plays he made with Kappy beautiful. It really is a bad situation for rest of season.

But lets look at defense. All in all the reworked pairings were much better. Splitting up Z and Gards was required. Thank god it got done. Those 2 can't work well together. Z needs a stable guy who he can rely on to be where a normal defense is. Gards is just not that guy. Gards does not even understand where a normal defense goes in his own end. He never learned it as a kid and young man growing up.

 

[qqaz]

I would make one change to these pairs.

Muzzin-Rielly
Gardiner-Dermott
Hainsey-Zaitsev

Gardiner and Dermott is not a 3rd pair and Hainsey and Zaitsev should not both be back in the top 4.

Ya, I don't think this makes any sense. We don't have enough righties on the team, and everyone's struggling to find a balance. But your solution gives us 3 pairings that are all the same handedness. Two pairs of lefties, and one pair of righties. That's not going to happen. Why should Hainsey play on the left?

I get that you're going for a setup that keeps Zaitsev and Hainsey out of the "top 4". But that's only a problem on paper. The pairings will get varrying ice time during the game as it progresses. If we are short handed a lot, Hainsey plays more. If we're behind a lot, Gardiner plays more. Etc. You don't need to worry about who is listed as "Top 4" or "bottom pairing" as much as you need to worry about who will play well with who.

Your solution is like playing Tavares and Matthews together, regardless of position, because neither is a "second liner." Who cares what the lines are called? The roster makes sense with them apart.

 

[therealkoho]

Must have been why Zaitsev was crap the first season too. It was all Rielly's fault.

You have a weird memory dude, that 1st season earned Zaitsev a 7 year contract and while he and Rielly weren't the perfect pair, they were prodigious offensively, when they were separated and Rielly was then paired with Gardiner it didn't result in any uptick in Rielly's game, he had a pretty horrible season defensively when all was said and done, he was thrust into the #1 role, and barely hung on some nights. The upside is that this trial by fire helped mature him very quickly!

in Zaitsev's second year he was paired mostly with Gardiner, and that's when the trouble started along with the recurring ankle problems

I'm not trying to diss you in any way, but the highly talented Gardiner is a handful to play with, mainly because of the weird braincramps and recurring positioning problems in the D-zone, not to mention that second guessing he does when going D to D.

 

[Nithoniniel]

You have a weird memory dude, that 1st season earned Zaitsev a 7 year contract and while he and Rielly weren't the perfect pair, they were prodigious offensively, when they were separated and Rielly was then paired with Gardiner it didn't result in any uptick in Rielly's game, he had a pretty horrible season defensively when all was said and done, he was thrust into the #1 role, and barely hung on some nights. The upside is that this trial by fire helped mature him very quickly!

What earned Zaitsev that contract was by getting points on the PP, a position he'll likely never fill long-term in the NHL. And Rielly and Zaitsev were filled in at even strength no matter what metric you looked at. It was simply a bad contract.

Rielly with Gardiner had numbers that would be among the most dominant pairings in the league. Very small sample size though.

I'm not trying to diss you in any way, but the highly talented Gardiner is a handful to play with, mainly because of the weird braincramps and recurring positioning problems in the D-zone, not to mention that second guessing he does when going D to D.

Yet for all that, every other partner Gardiner has had in his career has done better with him than without him. Many of them to the point that they were doing fine in a top four role with him, and were out of the league without him. Probably because when you are paired with him, all you need to do is give him the puck and he'll do all the puck moving, offensive plays, and rush defense your pairing needs.

 

[justafan22]

why

 

[Clark4Ever]

Hainsey back on the top pairing is certainly not ideal, but I guess it's worth a look to mitigate the liability of Zaitsev.

This is obviously not a long term solution for this season. Hopefully, Babs is just tinkering until Dubas acquires a reliable RHD.

 

[therealkoho]

What earned Zaitsev that contract was by getting points on the PP, a position he'll likely never fill long-term in the NHL. And Rielly and Zaitsev were filled in at even strength no matter what metric you looked at. It was simply a bad contract.

Rielly with Gardiner had numbers that would be among the most dominant pairings in the league. Very small sample size though.


Yet for all that, every other partner Gardiner has had in his career has done better with him than without him. Many of them to the point that they were doing fine in a top four role with him, and were out of the league without him.

c'mon really

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Gards has never played a normal traditional game so for some guys he is extraordinarily difficult to play with. It is hard to make split second decisions to move the puck to your partner if you are not confident he will be there for you. I think Z is one of those guys who needs consistency and tradition. He and Gards are a really bad pair. Personally I think our defense will improve next year without Gards even though we may lose a little offense. It remains to be seen but Sandin has same speed but also has more traditional defensive awareness and positioning skills. Where I worry is our lack of skill in being able to withstand the heavy forecheck. I would hate to see a very good team go down because we can't stop a heavy forecheck team from dumping in it and then easily getting it from us.

 

[therealkoho]

Hainsey back on the top pairing is certainly not ideal, but I guess it's worth a look to mitigate the liability of Zaitsev.

This is obviously not a long term solution for this season. Hopefully, Babs is just tinkering until Dubas acquires a reliable RHD.

so why Gardiner is on the 3rd pair, makes sense

 

[Nithoniniel]

c'mon really

Yes they have. Most of them are out of the league after moving away from him. Phaneuf playing with Gardiner got him traded with no repercussions for us. Carrick did fine with Gardiner, without him he can't get a spot on a weak Stars team. The list goes on and on.

 

[Martin Skoula]

What earned Zaitsev that contract was by getting points on the PP, a position he'll likely never fill long-term in the NHL. And Rielly and Zaitsev were filled in at even strength no matter what metric you looked at. It was simply a bad contract.

Rielly with Gardiner had numbers that would be among the most dominant pairings in the league. Very small sample size though.


Yet for all that, every other partner Gardiner has had in his career has done better with him than without him. Many of them to the point that they were doing fine in a top four role with him, and were out of the league without him. Probably because when you are paired with him, all you need to do is give him the puck and he'll do all the puck moving, offensive plays, and rush defense your pairing needs.

Gardiner's a weird case where several of his partners have brought up how difficult he is to play with (and it's plainly visible as well), but the outcomes are still overwhelmingly positive. I think a team would benefit from developing/acquiring a partner specifically for Gardiner rather than throwing him together with whatever 2nd pairing RD they happen to have.

You wouldn't want to play with a normal or "traditional" top-4 defenseman the way you have to play with Gardiner.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Babcock saying to Dubas he wants a RHD? Or maybe putting Z w/Muzzin, inflate value and trade?

 

[FreeBird]

Is Justin Holl another Stalman can't play for Leafs but can be a good Defenceman in NY and Tampa. just wondering.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Hard to know because Babs is stubborn. Holl can't play the stretch pass game. It is not his game. If short pass is not there he will skate it up.

Much like Leivo's down low forecheck and puck possession game was not Babs calling from a forward standpoint.

 

[therealkoho]

Yes they have. Most of them are out of the league after moving away from him. Phaneuf playing with Gardiner got him traded with no repercussions for us. Carrick did fine with Gardiner, without him he can't get a spot on a weak Stars team. The list goes on and on.

Carrick was and is a fringe NHLer and he looked like it every time he played no matter who he played with, all 130 games of it over 3 years. So as much lipstick as you want to put on this pig, let's not forget the Leafs got a conditional draft choice for him. A 6th if he played 50 games or more or a 7th if not! It's going to be a 7th because at this time the most games he can get into will be 39 and that will only happen if they have two more injuries on the blueline.

Phaneuf when he got to the Leafs couldn't shoot nor skate anymore, didn't impress anyone, you of course maybe being the exception, and wanted out because of his "relationship" with Leafs fans. It was a cap deal for both teams, not because Ottawa was so impressed with his play and in fact we're still paying one last contract out on the Marlies.

Serious question, if these guys looked so good playing with Gardiner why was the return on them a handful of shiny beads?