The Winnipeg Jets WHA dynasty: How would they have done in the NHL?
- Thread starter Jets4Life
- Start date
Jets4Life
Registered User
Would the Jets have had a better record than the Islanders, Flyers, and Bruins of the mid to late 70s, if they happened to be in the NHL. I have no doubt they would have beat the bottom feeding teams.
Not likely, as their top line was very good with the 2 swedes and Hull but that team lacked NHL depth and their back end would have been exposed against the top NHL teams IMO.
If they had drafted well coming into the NHL with that WHA core who knows though, they did have Kent Nilsson as well as Willy Lidstrom in 78 and did quite well with the top line replacements in winning their final Avco cup in 79.
It really depends on how many of those forwards from the mixed teams they would be able to keep but man their back end would still be horrible.
Theokritos
Global Moderator
- Apr 6, 2010
- 12,541
- 4,937
Theokritos
Global Moderator
- Apr 6, 2010
- 12,541
- 4,937
You need to clarify your question. The Red Army Team (=CSKA Moscow) and the Soviet National team weren't one and the same, so the two claims you present don't even contradict each other.
Big Phil
Registered User
- Nov 2, 2003
- 31,703
- 4,146
There was talk that the Jets should face the Habs to find out the true hockey power. This is where Montreal had absolutely nothing to gain. They would have been expected to trounce the Jets and I believe they would have.
The Jets wouldn't be able to handle the depth of the Bruins either. The Flyers would beat them as would the Sabres and Islanders. Outside of that we're talking about the Leafs as possibly the next best team. I honestly think the Leafs beat them. Hull was older by then on the Jets and Nilsson and Hedberg did not stand out once they hit the NHL. So the Jets might have been a mid tier team in the NHL.
The Jets wouldn't be able to handle the depth of the Bruins either. The Flyers would beat them as would the Sabres and Islanders. Outside of that we're talking about the Leafs as possibly the next best team. I honestly think the Leafs beat them. Hull was older by then on the Jets and Nilsson and Hedberg did not stand out once they hit the NHL. So the Jets might have been a mid tier team in the NHL.
So, a comparable would be the LA Kings era with the Triple Crown Line (one line team)?
Moose Head
Registered User
Jets4Life
Registered User
What I meant to say, was that IMO, the Red Army team and the Soviet National team had more or less the same roster, maybe give or take a half dozen players. I cannot for the life of me, find a roster comparing the two. However, if all the Soviet stars were on the Red Army team, I see little difference in how the team would perform against NHL clubs.
Jets4Life
Registered User
That was more, or less, my opinion. I am a Jets fan, but even I would concede that the WHA Jets were more on par with the Maple Leafs or Kings. There were a couple of Jets fans who grew up in the WHA era, who became irate at me, for even suggesting that the WHA Jets of the late 70s were not one of the top 3 hockey teams in the world at the time (the other two being Montreal and the Soviet National team).
The Panther
Registered User
This question of how 'good' the best WHA teams were, and how good that League in general was, is very interesting. I have no opinion on it as it was all before my time, but I think one way of looking at it is to see how some League-jumping players performed in the NHL in 1971-72, and then in the WHA in 1972-73; and likewise, how other players performed in the WHA in 1978-79 and then in the NHL in 1979-80.
For example, Bobby Hull scored 50 goals in 78 games with Chicago in 1972, and then scored 51 goals in just 63 games with Winnipeg in 1973. His second year in the WHA, he scored 53 goals in 75 games. So, those three seasons (1 NHL; 2 WHA) are all pretty close in goal production, with a slight increase in production in the WHA as you might expect. But then in 1975, Hull scores 77 goals for Winnipeg (and 142 points) at age 36, which is 20 more goals and 35 more points than he'd ever scored, in his prime, in the NHL.
Another example is Andre Lacroix, a dude who had never scored more than 24 goals in the NHL, but suddenly in the WHA jumped to 50 goals in 1973 (and, if you can believe it, 147 points in 1975 for the San Diego Mariners!). One of his teammates was Wayne Rivers, whose NHL-best was 6 goals in 58 games for Boston, but he briefly became a 50-goal man in the WHA. Robbie Ftorek is another well-known example -- a 100+ point man in the WHA, and around a 50-point man in the NHL.
Those are extreme examples, but in general it seems the WHA was more suited to less-physical (smaller), more skilled players, and thus was also good for aging NHL-ers who might be losing an edge but still had good hands (like Hull).
It's also interesting how many future NHL superstars were active in the final season, 1979-80 (Gretzky, Gartner, Messier, Nilsson, Mark Howe, Liut, Vaive, Ramage, etc.). The very youngest of those players, like Gretzky and Messier, were only 11 years old when the WHA took off, and they had sort-of grown up with it.
For example, Bobby Hull scored 50 goals in 78 games with Chicago in 1972, and then scored 51 goals in just 63 games with Winnipeg in 1973. His second year in the WHA, he scored 53 goals in 75 games. So, those three seasons (1 NHL; 2 WHA) are all pretty close in goal production, with a slight increase in production in the WHA as you might expect. But then in 1975, Hull scores 77 goals for Winnipeg (and 142 points) at age 36, which is 20 more goals and 35 more points than he'd ever scored, in his prime, in the NHL.
Another example is Andre Lacroix, a dude who had never scored more than 24 goals in the NHL, but suddenly in the WHA jumped to 50 goals in 1973 (and, if you can believe it, 147 points in 1975 for the San Diego Mariners!). One of his teammates was Wayne Rivers, whose NHL-best was 6 goals in 58 games for Boston, but he briefly became a 50-goal man in the WHA. Robbie Ftorek is another well-known example -- a 100+ point man in the WHA, and around a 50-point man in the NHL.
Those are extreme examples, but in general it seems the WHA was more suited to less-physical (smaller), more skilled players, and thus was also good for aging NHL-ers who might be losing an edge but still had good hands (like Hull).
It's also interesting how many future NHL superstars were active in the final season, 1979-80 (Gretzky, Gartner, Messier, Nilsson, Mark Howe, Liut, Vaive, Ramage, etc.). The very youngest of those players, like Gretzky and Messier, were only 11 years old when the WHA took off, and they had sort-of grown up with it.
I think they both were past their primes when entering the NHL, so those numbers should be put into perspective. Nilsson and Hedberg was 27/28 and Hedberg had been playing against men since he was 16. I think he "was older than his age". And Hedberg had an knee injury in 76/77 And Ulf of course only played about 50 games before that unlucky Potvin incident and was never the same.
And even Hedberg had problems with his knees starting already in 76/77 with the Jets.
Even if they wouldn´t replicate there WHA numbers I think they could have had some All Star Teams selections amongst them.
For instance Kent Nilsson was an 6th and 4th All Star his first two NHL seasons and got 5 votes (8th) for the Hart his second season. So his transition indicates that the jump could be made if one was the right age. Mid 70´s Hedberg/Nilsson was way better than late 70´s and early 80´s Hedberg/Nilsson. And when on the same team Nilsson/Hedberg was clearly superior to Kent, even if Kent of course then was an 21 year old and Nilsson/Hedberg 26/27 and just before injuries.
And lesser forwards like Laabraten also had injury derail him as an player. And he still managed to pot 30 goals and 57 points in 76 games in Detroit after that. And he was a better player in 76/77 then 79/80 when he did that.
Willy Lindström was also past his offensive peak when he followed Winnipeg to the NHL. He still managed to fill a great role on SC winning Oilers teams at age 32-33 before he then dipped as an player and retired two seasons later.
In an interview with Ulf in 2013 with Joe Pelletier an question regarding success in the NHL and the abuse before that.
Question: Why was it tougher to find success in the NHL when you joined the Rangers in 1978?
Answer: My first year before I broke my ankle in February was great. I took so much physical abuse during my 4 years in Winnipeg so I did not have anything left in my body. I believe that was the reason!
I think that goes for most players on that Jets team. A team built around a european way of playing and europeans being the best on the team (with Bobby of course...) was not something that would be taken lightly by NA hockey players at the time...
Especially Sjoberg/U Nilsson/Hedberg are probably the swedes that have had the biggest impact on hockey, as they where really the first to take that kind of hockey to NA. And they didn´t just play it. They won with it.
"It was a new lease on life," commented Hull. "I finally found a couple of kids who could play the game the way I wanted to play it."
With a better D according to me. I think the Jets D is getting underrated.
Sjoberg had an achilles tendon injury at age 34 his last season as an Jet and only played 9 regular season games that season. Still had an 34 points in 79 games first season in the NHL the next season and retired after that. People forget he was already 30 when he came over. And he peaked at 33 and then had the injury the next season. Without it he probably could have had a few more great years, and some of them in the NHL. He was the one stirring the drink in Winnipeg, being called the "The Professor" and "The Little General" for reasons. His small stature and being team captain the reason for the last
And Green was still a good player, if not the same as before. He certainly could have been a contributing defenceman on any NHL team. Even if not a 1-2 defenceman of course...
And Bergman was a good defender his first season in Detroit. Playing mostly with Ron Stackhouse, who later on in his career got some spred all star votes. Bergman was actually given the “A†in only his second season in his first stint with Detroit. Considering he was third in scoring amongst defenceman and 13th amongst all players on that team, that says a lot about what he brought. Outside a good defensive player, during his first season in Detroit fought both “The Hammer†and Bobby Clarke.
But he missed most of that and the the next season because of a knee injury. An ACL tore, that he had operated on even before leaving Sweden. And back then they had recovery time for a couple of months after that, Bergman has later said. Not half an year or so as you have today. Imagine the difference of how that healed…
He then went to the Jets and WHA and about his second season there had resurrected his play to his rookie season level in Detroit. He then had another (third really…) knee injury and was never the same player again. Released by the Jets and once again picked up by Detroit where he really wasn´t any good.
Also, Bergman probably had it harder than many other swedes coming over. Even if Salming was the first star from Sweden/Europe in the NHL, Bergman was really the first coming over (if one doesn´t count Widing, who moved with his parents from Sweden to Canada at age 15/16 and and started playing junior hockey there until he reached NHL…). Bergman was a tough customer and paid the price with his own injuries, outside the knees he amongst other thing broke his hand in a fight in 79/80. And he got the A the season Salming came over...
So just about any impact player, outside Kent Nilsson, they had were either done or had moved on or both by the time the Jets and there former players hit the NHL. And Nilsson was greater in the NHL than in the WHA one could aruge. So I don´t think one can judge the potential off that team based on what it achieved in the NHL or some of the players did in the 80´s. As evident that they where the WHA team that finished last in the first season after the merger…
And they wouldn´t have become the Oilers dynasty, but Sather has been on record many times talking about how he formed the Oilers style of play out of those Jets team. So the “european style†of hockey worked in the NHL.
------
On a side note I love this question/answer in the same Pelletier/Nilsson interview mentioned above:
Question: Who was the best player you played against, be it NHL, WHA or internationally?
Answer: I played with Bobby Hull, I did not play against Bobby Orr, Gordie Howe, Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux in their prime. My career fell just between those four great North American players. I played against some great CCCP players, most of the people don’t remember the real big red machine. Those five I played against were, Gusev, Vasiliev, Michalov, Petrov and Charlamov!
74/75 is the first season of The Hot Line, so that is easy attributed with Hedberg/Nilsson/Sjöberg coming over at the same time. Finishing 2-4 in team scoring after Hull. Hull 142, Nilsson 120, Hedberg 100, Sjöberg 60. So what kind of numbers that line (unit) would have had in the NHL is an nice "what if".
But I agree that smaller/finess players seemed to have easier in the WHA. So as with todays "what would Radulov" do, it all comes down to speculation as one player was better fitted for one leauge and vice versa.
But I would guess Hull would have been top 5 in NHL scoring and the the rest of the Hot Line top 20 at least. Hedberg/Nilsson both where top 20 PPG there first season in the NHL (edit: Nilsson was 15th PPG, but Hedberg finished 28th... Nilsson 23d the season after, while Hedberg dropped to 67). And they say there bodys were much done by then. And going by how Hulls numbers in the WHA and his CC and Summit play there´s no reason to think Hull on a line like the Hot Line would slow down until he was 40. He was still a Second All Star Winger at age 39 in the WHA.
Last edited by a moderator:
VMBM
And it didn't even bring me down
That is a myth, it's simply not true. Both the New England Whalers and the Quebec Nordiques did it in the 1976-77 Super Series between the Soviet national team and WHA teams.
A game report of the Whalers vs. USSR game
The Summit in 1974: Superseries 1976-77
A game report of the Quebec vs. USSR game:
The Summit in 1974: Superseries 1976-77
It's hard to find the exact Soviet lineups for those games (as is for the Jets game), but I can see that at least Tretiak played in both games. In the 1978 game between USSR and the Jets, it was Sidelnikov that was the starting goalie; I think Tretiak replaced him in the nets after the 4th Jets goal. USSR and the Jets played 2 games in Japan in December 1977 & one in January and one in Winnipeg in January 1978; the Soviets won all three games played in Japan and the Jets won the one in Winnipeg.
The Jets in the NHL... they might have made the playoffs, and the top line/unit would have done some damage in the NHL too, but they simply did not have the depth to beat 'good' NHL teams in a playoff series. I'm talking about Montreal, Boston, Philadelphia and the like.
Last edited by a moderator:
Jets4Life
Registered User
Good post. Very interesting that the Whalers and Nordiques beat the Soviets before the Jets. I always was of the opinion that the Jets would have been good in the NHL, but would have battled LA, Toronto, and Buffalo in the late 70s, rather than Montreal, Boston, Philly, and the Islanders, as they just did not have the depth to do so. Just my 2 cents.
Last edited by a moderator:
Theokritos
Global Moderator
- Apr 6, 2010
- 12,541
- 4,937
1976/12/27 (2-3 at Whalers):
Tretyak; Babinov* - Lutchenko, Bilyaletdinov* - Vasilyev*, Pervukhin* - Lyapkin*, Tsygankov; Yakushev* - Shadrin* - Shalimov*, Aleksandrov - Zhluktov - Vikulov, Prirodin* - Maltsev* - A Golikov*.
1977/1/8 (1-6 at Nordiques):
Tretyak (49. Sidelnikov*); Pervukhin* - Lutchenko, Krikunov* - Babinov*, Bilyaletdinov* - Vasilyev*, Lyapkin*; Kharlamov - Petrov - Mikhailov, Yakushev* - Shadrin* - Shalimov*, Balderis* - Maltsev* - A Golikov*, Kovin*, Repnyov*.
1977/12/29 (7-5 vs Jets, at Tokyo):
Tretyak; Gusev - Tsygankov, Fyodorov* - Babinov*, Pervukhin* - Vasilyev*; Kharlamov - Petrov - Mikhailov, Kapustin* - Anisin* - Balderis*, A Golikov* - V Golikov* - Maltsev*, Lebedev*.
1977/12/30 (4-2 vs Jets, at Tokyo):
Sidelnikov*; Pervukhin* - Vasilyev*, Lutchenko - Tsygankov, Fyodorov* - Babinov*, Hatuļevs*; A Golikov* - V Golikov* - Maltsev*, Aleksandrov - Lobanov - Vikulov, Shalimov* - Kovin* - Lebedev*, Balderis* - Anisin* - Kapustin*, Petrov.
1978/1/1 (5-1 vs Jets, at Tokyo):
Sidelnikov*; Gusev - Tsygankov, Pervukhin* - Vasilyev*, Lutchenko - Fyodorov*, Hatuļevs*; Kharlamov - Petrov - Mikhailov, A Golikov* - V Golikov* - Maltsev*, Aleksandrov - Lobanov - Vikulov, Shalimov* - Kovin* - Lebedev*.
Couldn't find the Soviet roster for the 1978/1/5 game when they lost 3-5 at Winnipeg.
See above: Non-CSKA players marked with a *. Between 55-75 % of the players on the Soviet roster during the time in question.
Last edited:
VMBM
And it didn't even bring me down
Okay, clearly the Soviets also saw these games/tours as an opportunity to test young ntl team candidates (as well as some older ones) for the World Championships, so the lineup isn't always nearly their best possible one. Nevertheless, the roster e.g. in the game against the Nordiques was pretty damn strong, so it can't be used as an excuse for the blowout there. Against the Whalers... maybe, since the top line, for example, did not play.
PS. Ah, one game in Japan was also played in January 1978; I stand corrected ("said the man in the orthopedic shoes!")
Jets4Life
Registered User
Two old Jets fans that grew up during that time were irate, after I pointed out the Flyers had defeated the Red Army in 1976. I can only imagine if I debunked their theory that the Jets were the first North American team to defeat the Soviet National team. I've already been accused of being a "historical revisionist" just for disagreeing with the notion, that the WHA Jets were not one of the top 3 teams in the world in the late 70s.
SealsFan
Registered User
- May 3, 2009
- 1,716
- 506
I think they would have been middle-of-the-pack, anywhere from a .500 team to ten games under .500.
Once you got past the big line, there was no real depth; guys who could score 20-30 goals in the WHA but not necessarily in the NHL. Joe Daley was an average goalie.
Once you got past the big line, there was no real depth; guys who could score 20-30 goals in the WHA but not necessarily in the NHL. Joe Daley was an average goalie.
Voight
#winning
Pretty much, the WHA teams were usually guys who couldn't make the NHL or who wanted more money.
Zegras Zebra
Registered User
Could the WHA Winnipeg Jets been Stanley Cup contenders?
The Winnipeg Jets were a WHA dynasty in the late 1970's. They won Avco Cup titles in 1975-76, 1977-78, and 1978-79 and lost to the Quebec Nordiques in the 1976-77 season. They also beat the Soviet Union in a game on January 5, 1978.
I want to know if the Jets played in the NHL at the time instead of the WHA could they have had an opportunity to steal one or more Stanley Cup victories away from the great Montreal Canadiens teams of the late 1970's? If not how good were they? Would they be at the same level as the Bruins and Flyers of this era, or were the Jets simply good because they played in a league with far less talented (and financially stable) franchises?
Also if the Winnipeg Jets core wasn't gutted by the NHL reclamation draft of 1979 when the team joined the NHL, could they have been able to compete with the NY Islanders dynasty of the early 1980's?
The Winnipeg Jets were a WHA dynasty in the late 1970's. They won Avco Cup titles in 1975-76, 1977-78, and 1978-79 and lost to the Quebec Nordiques in the 1976-77 season. They also beat the Soviet Union in a game on January 5, 1978.
I want to know if the Jets played in the NHL at the time instead of the WHA could they have had an opportunity to steal one or more Stanley Cup victories away from the great Montreal Canadiens teams of the late 1970's? If not how good were they? Would they be at the same level as the Bruins and Flyers of this era, or were the Jets simply good because they played in a league with far less talented (and financially stable) franchises?
Also if the Winnipeg Jets core wasn't gutted by the NHL reclamation draft of 1979 when the team joined the NHL, could they have been able to compete with the NY Islanders dynasty of the early 1980's?
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
just looking at the 78-79 roster...
Nilsson as your first line center = above average
Lukowich as a first line glue guy LW = very good.
Ruskowski proved to be a very useful NHLer, could be the captain and 3rd line center.
Sullivan never had staying power at the NHL level.
Nothing wrong with Preston as a 3rd line RW at the NHL level.
Lindstrom would be an average 2nd line RW.
The rest of the roster at forward were not special WHA players - how many of them even played 100 NHL games after the merger? Middle of the roster players like Lesuk, Guindon and Moffat immediately proved to be marginal players even on a poor Winnipeg team and did not last.
On defense, Long was ok but quickly proved to be way out of his element in the NHL at 31-32. The rest of the top-6 lasted in the NHL for 352 games combined (that's about 70 per player). Winnipeg played Scott Campbell as a #2 the next season, and Washington played Paul MacKinnon as a #3 - and both teams were terrible teams with poor defensive depth and little competition for icetime.
Sjoberg, their actual best defenseman, missed most of 1979-80 but had one more season in the tank.
Joe Daley was a very good WHA goaltender but was finished in 1979 at age 35. Mattsson and Smith played a combined 112 NHL games with a 4.11 GAA and were soon replaced by better goalies.
If Winnipeg had been able to keep this roster together, the question isn't whether they could have competed with the Islanders. The question is whether they'd have cracked 60 points. The bottom half of their WHA roster, which was not NHL-caliber, was replaced for the 1979-80 season by.... I'm not going to say better players across the board, but certainly Ron Wilson, Dave Christian, Peter Marsh, Jude Drouin and Sjoberg (who they didn't have the previous season) proved to be improvements. Losing Preston and Nilsson from the top end of the roster hurt, but they weren't going to make a 51 point team a contender. Not by a long shot.
Nilsson as your first line center = above average
Lukowich as a first line glue guy LW = very good.
Ruskowski proved to be a very useful NHLer, could be the captain and 3rd line center.
Sullivan never had staying power at the NHL level.
Nothing wrong with Preston as a 3rd line RW at the NHL level.
Lindstrom would be an average 2nd line RW.
The rest of the roster at forward were not special WHA players - how many of them even played 100 NHL games after the merger? Middle of the roster players like Lesuk, Guindon and Moffat immediately proved to be marginal players even on a poor Winnipeg team and did not last.
On defense, Long was ok but quickly proved to be way out of his element in the NHL at 31-32. The rest of the top-6 lasted in the NHL for 352 games combined (that's about 70 per player). Winnipeg played Scott Campbell as a #2 the next season, and Washington played Paul MacKinnon as a #3 - and both teams were terrible teams with poor defensive depth and little competition for icetime.
Sjoberg, their actual best defenseman, missed most of 1979-80 but had one more season in the tank.
Joe Daley was a very good WHA goaltender but was finished in 1979 at age 35. Mattsson and Smith played a combined 112 NHL games with a 4.11 GAA and were soon replaced by better goalies.
If Winnipeg had been able to keep this roster together, the question isn't whether they could have competed with the Islanders. The question is whether they'd have cracked 60 points. The bottom half of their WHA roster, which was not NHL-caliber, was replaced for the 1979-80 season by.... I'm not going to say better players across the board, but certainly Ron Wilson, Dave Christian, Peter Marsh, Jude Drouin and Sjoberg (who they didn't have the previous season) proved to be improvements. Losing Preston and Nilsson from the top end of the roster hurt, but they weren't going to make a 51 point team a contender. Not by a long shot.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
RedWingsMan1951
Registered User
I don't think the WHA Dynasty JETS would have beaten the Dynasty CANADIENS but I will tell you that after watching games since the early 1950's (NHL, WHA, International, World/Canada Cups, Summit Series'72-'74) that the 1974-75 WINNIPEG JETS Team had 1 of the Most Exciting Lines EVER in Hockey History with (Hull-Hedberg-Nilsson) unit. Montreal was deeper all around and would have beaten them but the WHA Jets had they been in the NHL would have been in the Top 5 in my opinion they just needed stronger Goaltending and a few more quality players. The problem with Hockey in the 1970's is the WHA came in and stole some of the NHL's thunder and weakened the talent and skill of the game of hockey in that decade. I'm glad they merged with the 4 teams in 1979 because there was too many players that didn't belong in both leagues (Kind of the problem now with hockey with 30 team league, expansion killed it).
The WINNIPEG JETS Top Line was 1 of the Most Exciting Lines I have ever witnessed
(Bobby Hull 77-65-142) - (Ulf Nilsson 26-94-120) - (Anders Hedberg 53-47-100)
The Jets Defenceman (Lars Erik-Sjoberg 7-53-60) played great but after that 1 line that was it, They put all there Eggs and Money into 1 basket. But to answer your question I think they would have been around the Top 4-7 range in the NHL had they played at the time but we can only speculate.
The WINNIPEG JETS Top Line was 1 of the Most Exciting Lines I have ever witnessed
(Bobby Hull 77-65-142) - (Ulf Nilsson 26-94-120) - (Anders Hedberg 53-47-100)
The Jets Defenceman (Lars Erik-Sjoberg 7-53-60) played great but after that 1 line that was it, They put all there Eggs and Money into 1 basket. But to answer your question I think they would have been around the Top 4-7 range in the NHL had they played at the time but we can only speculate.
