The U Sports 8-Team Format Doesn't Work!

Bob Stauffer

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Aug 4, 2003
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USports made an ill-fated decision a number of years ago to switch from 6 to 8 teams.
It hasn't worked!

The National Governing body has basically tried to "Draft" off of the dollars of Men's B-Ball and Men's Hockey in terms of hosting fees to balance the "loss leaders" of the other "less desirable" events all the while streamlining Men's and Women's Hockey formats to mirror Basketball and Volleyball Championships 8-team, single-elimination Tournaments.

The problem is that Hockey teams with a travelling entourage of 30 or so people is a much more expensive propostion than B-Ball and V-Ball.

The old 6-team format guaranteed at least two home gates, which gave the organizing committee a "punchers chance" to break even!

And it isn't like the competitiveness of the tournament has increased...has the OUA won a game over the last three years?

As it stands now, other than the Atlantic, which doesnt have NHL options, who in their right mind would "bid" on an 8-team event where you are only guaranteed 1 home gate.

Time to seriously look at going back to the 6-team Tournament IMO.

Thoughts?
 
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Hollywood3

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May 12, 2007
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The 6 team format was nonsense. No 8-team round-robin system can be used for student athletes at that time of year. If 8 is too many, go to 4.
 

Rob

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The 6 team format was nonsense. No 8-team round-robin system can be used for student athletes at that time of year. If 8 is too many, go to 4.

I don't have a problem with the 4 team format but it looks like the 8 team format is here is stay.

Also, we would go back to the old neutral site location in Toronto? West, AUS winners along with the two OUA division champs. This would be the most fair system.

Or would you want to have a host team? This would probably be the most realistic
 

mikeandI

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Jun 30, 2010
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hey Robert check these options out
let USPORTS know which one is best and getty up

Option 1
Regional 4- Rotating host by conference every year
- 4 Teams
- 2 CW, 2 AUS, 2 Ont W, 2 Ont E
National Championships
- 2 Teams best of 3
host rotates?.....but i could be an all conference final

Option 2
4 League winners
2 Regional best of 3
who plays who might rotate yearly

National Championship
- 2 team best of 3
host would rotate east/west

both of these options could have some traction!
migates costs
hosting interest !
who cares about tv, they adjust to USPORTS
 
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MiamiHockey

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Here's a snippet of what I proposed in the 2019 University Cup Thread:

Here's a better format: follow the Vanier Cup's lead.

Have the OUA East Champion play the AUS Champion in a Best-of-3, and the OUA West Champion play the Canada West Champion play in a Best-of-3. Alternate which conference gets the home ice.

Then the winners of those series play a Best-of-3 for the University Cup, alternating the host conference each year.

If you wish, also switch up the conference match-ups each year (OUA West vs. AUS, OUA East vs. CW).

This new format will help in three ways:
a) MUCH better crowds. Even in the OUA, land of the empty barns, fans will jump on board to support their team.
b) Less travel = lower costs.
c) Meaningful Conference Championships.

The big issue here is that USports is trying to be the NCAA. Canadian sports culture is much different than US sports culture, and USports' insistence on pursuing these types of tournaments does more to hurt its image than help it. How many decades have they been chasing host venues?

What's going to make USports more compelling is to have exciting games in front of large, energetic crowds. The only way to do that is to have the Championship be a series hosted by one of the teams involved.

I know that going to the University Cup comes with costs beyond travel. I can imagine a number of top programs who would far prefer to share some home gates than traverse across the country for one or two games. Thinking of McGill / Carleton / Ottawa ...

If I'm Alberta or UNB, I'm all for this. It does three things:
a) Meaningful conference championships ... crowds would only grow with a meaningful championship that had a chance at a national title on the line.
b) Single-elimination tournaments favour the underdogs ... Carleton had a chance against UNB in one game, but not in three.
c) Crowds ... who wouldn't be all-in for an Alberta-UNB series over a single game?
 
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AUS Fan

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I like the Vanier style format. BUT... given the history of the current format and some posts on this Forum, the Final will "almost" always be AUS-CW.
 

hockeyinsiderusports

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Nov 20, 2017
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Biggest problem for oua is too many teams which waters down the product

Also, oua should change playoff format to 1-6 and top two seeds in each division get a bye in 1st rd. This might help top teams to get rest like other division leaders in cell/aus and hopefully best team emerge

Oua should allow 4 Full scholarships, that will entice top players stay in oua versus going to AUS
 

AdamMcg83

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Biggest problem for oua is too many teams which waters down the product

Also, oua should change playoff format to 1-6 and top two seeds in each division get a bye in 1st rd. This might help top teams to get rest like other division leaders in cell/aus and hopefully best team emerge

Oua should allow 4 Full scholarships, that will entice top players stay in oua versus going to AUS

I'd argue that an increase in full scholarships for the OUA would probably make your other two proposed solutions superfluous. The OUA only has too many teams if there's an imbalance in overall conference strength. If we fix that root cause, the oua's team count and playoff structure might not need fixing.
 

FreddyFoyle

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Mar 12, 2008
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The OUA needs to pull their heads out of the sand and follow the same AFA rules, the national rules, that the other two conferences follow. Put more money into the top-end financial awards for the top-end hockey players, and you no longer have to worry about being "outspent" by the AUS and CanWest when chasing recruits.

Of course, you will probably discover it is not always the money that determines where recruits go, but at least the OUA would be on a level playing field.
 
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FreddyFoyle

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Biggest problem for oua is too many teams which waters down the product

Also, oua should change playoff format to 1-6 and top two seeds in each division get a bye in 1st rd. This might help top teams to get rest like other division leaders in cell/aus and hopefully best team emerge

Oua should allow 4 Full scholarships, that will entice top players stay in oua versus going to AUS

I wouldn't want to see the opportunity for student-athletes to play varsity hockey be taken away by dropping teams, but I do agree that it would be "fairer" or more rewarding if OUA division champs got first-round byes in the playoffs.
 
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MiamiHockey

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The OUA needs to pull their heads out of the sand and follow the same AFA rules, the national rules, that the other two conferences follow. Put more money into the top-end financial awards for the top-end hockey players, and you no longer have to worry about being "outspent" by the AUS and CanWest when chasing recruits.

Of course, you will probably discover it is not always the money that determines where recruits go, but at least the OUA would be on a level playing field.

Biggest problem for oua is too many teams which waters down the product

Also, oua should change playoff format to 1-6 and top two seeds in each division get a bye in 1st rd. This might help top teams to get rest like other division leaders in cell/aus and hopefully best team emerge

Oua should allow 4 Full scholarships, that will entice top players stay in oua versus going to AUS

If the number of teams causes problems, then we should see Canada West get weaker with MacEwan and TWU entering the fray. I don't believe that will happen.

I don't think it's the number of teams that is an issue in the OUA. The difference between Carleton / McGill and UNB / Alberta is not that the former have faced weaker opponents all year. The difference is that the high-end players being pursued by multiple programs are able to get better support in Alberta / UNB than elsewhere. McGill and Carleton can't compete on financial terms.

Adding a First-Round Bye in the OUA would help, but what would help more would be to have the higher-ranked team host the entire series. As I have mentioned before, it's assinine that a top-ranked OUA team (e.g., McGill, UQTR) should have to spend 9+ hours EACH WAY to play a single Thursday game against Laurentian / Nipissing / UOIT prior to returning home to finish the series.

If you go back to 2017-18, the top-ranked team in the OUA (McGill) had to make the following playoff bus trips before they got to the University Cup:
- Laurentian (8 hours each way)
- Ottawa (2 hours each way)
- Brock (7 hours each way)
They were lucky to play Concordia instead of, say, Queens, in the third round.
 

Hollywood3

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May 12, 2007
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Meanwhile in football, everybody wants to find a format to expand the nationals due to the problem of the "AUS bye" which results from each conference getting a semi-final berth.

The OUA in hockey is better than the AUS in football.

IMO it is up to each conference to run their own show. I have never agreed with the OUA's "everybody should adopt our rules" approach. I also dispute the notion that it would be "better" to have fewer teams. The OUA should be commended for their participation ratio. Much better than the RSEQ!

Also, don't forget the BCIHL and ACAC. The top half of the ACAC would likely be playoff teams in the OUA. Combined, there are 21 teams in Western Canada.
 

AUS Fan

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We should not lose sight of the fact that these are Students who also happen to be good hockey players. To deprive them a choice of schools by dropping those with "bad" teams, is not a good idea. Not all players can go to UNB or UofA. Some will go to Regina, RMC or DAL. They will get their degrees and play hockey. They will have fun.

CIS is not NCAA and never will be. Let the kids play......
 
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MiamiHockey

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I like the Vanier style format. BUT... given the history of the current format and some posts on this Forum, the Final will "almost" always be AUS-CW.

Perhaps.

But 16 of the past 18 University Cups have been hosted by either the AUS or Canada West. For the all the derision about the OUA's performance at the University Cup, the fact is they're always playing in other conferences. I'd be curious to see how the AUS and Canada West champions would fare in a 2-of-3 played on the road in Ontario. I think Alberta and UNB would still win more often than they'd lose, but by alternating which conference hosts, we'd find out how big of a disadvantage that travel really is.
 

MiamiHockey

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Sep 12, 2012
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Meanwhile in football, everybody wants to find a format to expand the nationals due to the problem of the "AUS bye" which results from each conference getting a semi-final berth.

The OUA in hockey is better than the AUS in football.

IMO it is up to each conference to run their own show. I have never agreed with the OUA's "everybody should adopt our rules" approach. I also dispute the notion that it would be "better" to have fewer teams. The OUA should be commended for their participation ratio. Much better than the RSEQ!

Also, don't forget the BCIHL and ACAC. The top half of the ACAC would likely be playoff teams in the OUA. Combined, there are 21 teams in Western Canada.

The top half of the ACAC would also be playoff teams in Canada West.
 

FreddyFoyle

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Mar 12, 2008
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Top teams in cw/aus have higher cap value than any team in oua. It’s unfair competitive balance
But that is because the OUA shoots themselves in the foot by not matching the national cap for AFA's as set by USports. Not unfair if you choose to set lower limits than the national limits.
The AUS is the only conference that has roster size limits. This has had its intended effect of limiting UNB from adding more depth players than its opponents in the AUS. This sometimes has an adverse effect when AUS teams show up at Nationals with a depleted roster. But the AUS doesn't get to say it is "unfair competitively" at Nationals because they did it to themselves.
 
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FreddyFoyle

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Perhaps.

But 16 of the past 18 University Cups have been hosted by either the AUS or Canada West. For the all the derision about the OUA's performance at the University Cup, the fact is they're always playing in other conferences. I'd be curious to see how the AUS and Canada West champions would fare in a 2-of-3 played on the road in Ontario. I think Alberta and UNB would still win more often than they'd lose, but by alternating which conference hosts, we'd find out how big of a disadvantage that travel really is.

I do agree that travel (and time zones) are a factor, and I for one would like to see more UCups in Ontario, or Quebec. But when you look at the financial guarantees that USports wants now for hosting, and a host can be one-and-done with the Final 8 format, you can understand why fewer schools are stepping up with offers to host.
 

AUS Fan

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Regarding the AUS/CW hosting more than OUA: 2 years in Kitchener were a disaster in terms of fan support. I felt it would have been faster to introduce the fans rather than the starting lineup. When T-Bay hosted, the 1st year they didn't "force" people to buy a package so the locals bought single game tickets for the home team. They were the only games with a good crowd. I'll admit the crowds were better than Kitchener, but were not overly large.

Other than the recent Lethbridge tournament, CW has done well with fan support. AUS cities have been also done well. Did Halifax not set a record for overall attendance the 2nd year of hosting?

As Foyle mentioned, the cost of hosting is getting prohibitive for a lot of places.
 

AUS Fan

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How would this work?

4 team round robin - AUS, CW, OUAE and OUAW.

Wed 2 pm AUS vs OUAE, 7 pm CW vs OUAW
Thurs 2 pm AUS vs OUAW, 7 pm CW vs OUAE
Friday off day.
Sat 2 pm AUS vs CW, 7 pm OUAE vs OUAW
Sun 2 pm Bronze medal (if necessary), 7 pm Gold medal

The host team is guaranteed 3 games.

OUA can still have Queen's Cup on Saturday before.
 

Hollywood3

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May 12, 2007
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How would this work?

4 team round robin - AUS, CW, OUAE and OUAW.

Wed 2 pm AUS vs OUAE, 7 pm CW vs OUAW
Thurs 2 pm AUS vs OUAW, 7 pm CW vs OUAE
Friday off day.
Sat 2 pm AUS vs CW, 7 pm OUAE vs OUAW
Sun 2 pm Bronze medal (if necessary), 7 pm Gold medal

The host team is guaranteed 3 games.

OUA can still have Queen's Cup on Saturday before.
There is no host team in that format.
The alternative would be Mem-Cup style, i.e. three winners and a host.
I also think USports would need some rule to prevent teams from arriving "too early" for this. They basically miss a full week as is.
 
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MiamiHockey

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Sep 12, 2012
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How would this work?

4 team round robin - AUS, CW, OUAE and OUAW.

Wed 2 pm AUS vs OUAE, 7 pm CW vs OUAW
Thurs 2 pm AUS vs OUAW, 7 pm CW vs OUAE
Friday off day.
Sat 2 pm AUS vs CW, 7 pm OUAE vs OUAW
Sun 2 pm Bronze medal (if necessary), 7 pm Gold medal

The host team is guaranteed 3 games.

OUA can still have Queen's Cup on Saturday before.

The main reason for having a Host determined a year in advance is so that hotels / other arrangements can be made well in advance. Hotel rooms is the big showstopper, transportation is a secondary but also important concern.

Let's say that you rotate the Host Conference every year ... and their Champion has to host three visiting teams coming in with a week's notice. Good luck finding hotel rooms in Fredericton, Saskatoon, or (shudder) Thunder Bay ... much less enough flights into the city.
 

Hollywood3

Bison/Jet/Moose Fan
May 12, 2007
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The main reason for having a Host determined a year in advance is so that hotels / other arrangements can be made well in advance. Hotel rooms is the big showstopper, transportation is a secondary but also important concern.

Let's say that you rotate the Host Conference every year ... and their Champion has to host three visiting teams coming in with a week's notice. Good luck finding hotel rooms in Fredericton, Saskatoon, or (shudder) Thunder Bay ... much less enough flights into the city.
Bison football a few years back needed to book flights to Montreal for a national semi-final. I believe they had to divide into three contingents to get there. And that's Montreal.
 

UNB Bruins Fan

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Mar 11, 2008
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I like MiamiHockey's Vanier Cup format...I can get on board with that. As mentioned, we don't need to be like the NCAA...doing something unique and different might not be the worst idea. I think that would be the best option to guarantee big crowds for every game. I know there is a risk that a team with a small rink might be there - and the networks are always concerned about how things look on TV - but I would rather watch a game in a packed 1500 seat rink than in an almost empty 6000 seat rink. I'm sure that would show better on TV as well. Also, I am sure in many cases those cities would have a bigger, most likely CHL, rink nearby that they could use instead anyways.

I actually didn't even mind the old six team format, but I do understand Sportsnet's desire to have a "true" semi-final.

Speaking of which, isn't the SN partnership done now? I wonder what will happen moving forward in terms of TV coverage?
 

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